Who did more evil? Dark Willow or Faith
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Klaus Kartoffel
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Dark Willow killed Warren in vengeance and Rack for Power, tried to murder Andrew and Jonathan, threatened Dawn, beat up Buffy, knocked out Anya, took Giles' magic without concern for his life, attacked Xander and tried to destroy the world. Oh, and she damaged the police station and destroyed the Magic Box. That's clearly vandalism!
Mitigating circumstances: grief, trauma, doubtful sanity, lacking education.
Faith accidently killed Finch, assassinated Prof. Worth, killed this guy with the crossbow, killed this (allegedly harmless) demon for the books, poisoned Angel, throttled Xander, held Willow hostage with a knife and hit her, tortured Wesley, beat this W&H guy to a pulp, allianced herself with the enemy who'd have probably eaten half of California until the military would have nuked him to dust if it weren't for Buffy and the Scoobies.
Mitigating circumstances: presumably abusive upbringing, neglect, minority (?)
I'd say Faith since she did evil over a longer timespan and Willow's attempt to destroy the world was exactly this. An attempt. She didn't actually do it. So that doesn't count fully.
As for redemption? Since when is it deserved? Isn't it something you're doing? Faith clearly did more about it while I'd blame the writers for the absence of Willow's redemption arc since nobody else seemed to care about it as well.
If you're asking who deserves forgiveness more I'd say both equally since both regretted and realized their sins.
Mitigating circumstances: grief, trauma, doubtful sanity, lacking education.
Faith accidently killed Finch, assassinated Prof. Worth, killed this guy with the crossbow, killed this (allegedly harmless) demon for the books, poisoned Angel, throttled Xander, held Willow hostage with a knife and hit her, tortured Wesley, beat this W&H guy to a pulp, allianced herself with the enemy who'd have probably eaten half of California until the military would have nuked him to dust if it weren't for Buffy and the Scoobies.
Mitigating circumstances: presumably abusive upbringing, neglect, minority (?)
I'd say Faith since she did evil over a longer timespan and Willow's attempt to destroy the world was exactly this. An attempt. She didn't actually do it. So that doesn't count fully.
As for redemption? Since when is it deserved? Isn't it something you're doing? Faith clearly did more about it while I'd blame the writers for the absence of Willow's redemption arc since nobody else seemed to care about it as well.
If you're asking who deserves forgiveness more I'd say both equally since both regretted and realized their sins.
B
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I'm not sure who did more evil. Dark Willow feels more evil because it feels more like wanton destruction.
Faith deserved redemption more because she earned it.
Faith deserved redemption more because she earned it.
Monkey Pants
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I think both Dark Willow and Faith did about the same amount of evil, and killed the same amount of people. I think they both deserve redemption, although I think Faith feels a lot badly about what she did than Willow does, and she's seeking redemption whereas Willow just gets let off the hook.
B
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I would say that Willow did more evil because she had the possibility to share her pain with her best friend: xander ( in my opinion he knows better Willow than Buffy) and Willow put herself above everything and everyone with no consideration of the consequences of the abuse of the force of the magic ( after everything happened with the wrong spells and so on...) without thinking of the huge demage: she put in extreme and very dangerous situation her friends and the entire univere! But, above all, I think that Giles is the responsible of this madness because he shoud have guide, somehow, Willow and also try to "understand" the huge power insed of Willow.
Faith is an unlucky victim of the circumstances: no good parents; no friends; no education and school and so on.... She needed help from the beginning of her childhood and "special supervision" with kindness ,specially, as slayer.... Here the responsible was " the council".... She was already out of control with an enormous charge of power with too much " issues to resole"....
In the end it is interesting seeng two characters, with different backgrounds, reach the same darkness , self-annihilation and with the need ( at the same time) to inflict pain the need to inflict pain to get up to nothing but ashes as evidence that nothing and no one has any excuse to be part of a life that is not that nothing but a farce....
Faith and Willow: two tragic characters worthy of Shakespeare 🙂
Faith is an unlucky victim of the circumstances: no good parents; no friends; no education and school and so on.... She needed help from the beginning of her childhood and "special supervision" with kindness ,specially, as slayer.... Here the responsible was " the council".... She was already out of control with an enormous charge of power with too much " issues to resole"....
In the end it is interesting seeng two characters, with different backgrounds, reach the same darkness , self-annihilation and with the need ( at the same time) to inflict pain the need to inflict pain to get up to nothing but ashes as evidence that nothing and no one has any excuse to be part of a life that is not that nothing but a farce....
Faith and Willow: two tragic characters worthy of Shakespeare 🙂
Klaus Kartoffel
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If we take "redemption" as in making up for evil deeds, even the scores etc, Willow did the same what Faith did, and in the same amount. She fought evil, saved lives, risked her own, helped people etc. The difference is that she already did that before her downfall and just continued with it afterwards. It's not associated with a redemption arc whereas Faith heroic actions are directly linked to it. As much as I love Faith, she isn't as fleshed out as a character as Willow in the TV-show. Faith is pretty much reduced to her evil deeds in S03/04 whereas Willow is much more than just S06.
The same goes on the personal level. Apologies to people they had wronged. Neither Faith nor Willow apologized directly to anyone. Or Wesley to Angel, Angel to Giles etc. The show lacked in general in that depart. Even Spike only apologized indirectly to Buffy for the AR ("Neither do I. I can't say 'sorry'. Can't use 'forgive me'. All I can say is: Buffy, I've changed.") So I assume it happened off-screen. Somebody has apologized to somebody at some time. I've no doubt.😀
Regret: Both showed regret. Willow in England and in "Same Time, Same Place" was pretty regretful, as was Faith in "Five by Five". However, Willow didn't show regret that she killed Warren and Rack. To be honest, I wouldn't either. I can't hold that against her. Warren murdered Tara, the love of her life, and Rack was scum and slay-worthy anyway. Prof. Worth, however, was an innocent man and I appreciate that that was addressed in A&F S09.
It comes down to punishment. Faith spent three years in prison in which she had turned herself in. It's palpable and very memorable. But let's not forget that Willow lost Tara and was left with a dangerous imbalance in her magical system. I see that as a huge punishment. Willow couldn't have turned herself in, even if she had wanted to (no evidence) and it would simply have been boring when she had gone to jail (repetition). I would read a parody fanfic where Faith and Willow end up as cell mates, though. 😀
The main problem, IMO, is that consequences of her actions regarding her relationships to her friends weren't properly addressed and handled. "Same Time, Same Place" was a nice kick-off but then... almost nothing. I would have appreciated it if Buffy had trust issues, albeit unintentionally, towards Willow or when Dawn would have been reproachful. I would have liked to see Willow struggling in restoring her relationships to Buffy and Dawn. I would have liked more Xander/Willow scenes. Tensions, conflicts and eventually closure with hugs and tears (figuratively). In short: DRAMA! Well, they made the Spuffy show instead and handed Kennedy to Willow to have her occupied and for screen time. *shrugs*
Faith did the same with her Slayer powers. Faith put herself above everything for affection and Willow for vengeance. Both is pretty ****ed up. Faith didn't consider any consequences as well, or she considered them but decided that she doesn't care... like Willow.
I think Faith did more evil because 1. She had more time 😀 and 2. if we list their deeds and compare them, Faith's list is longer.
The flashes, lights, veiny skin, black hair etc. of Willow are very impressive and dramatic, I agree, but they distract from the matter. What counts, are the results.
The attempt to destroy the world is partly Giles' fault as well. He took a risk and it almost ended badly. Both, he and Willow, hadn't the intend to destroy the world when he coaxed her to suck his magic and she actually did it. And don't exaggerate, it was "only" the world, not the entire universe. 😛
I partly agree. Ultimately, Willow is responsible for her own actions. Just like Faith is responsible. But there are mitigating circumstances. Giles from "Becoming II" to "Grave" is a big one of those and it bugs me that it wasn't addressed and got closure in the aftermath.
Agreed! Willow and Faith are the best and most interesting characters of the entire fandom. 😛
Monkey Pants
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@DoktorRock Yes Faith and Willow both did good things and risked their own lives in season 7...but I get the feeling Faith truly felt bad for what she did, whereas I don't really with Willow. And Faith did apologize to Buffy. The thing that bothers me the most is that Willow never apologized or even acknowledged that it was wrong to wipe Tara's mind. I'm not sure she fully understands what she did. She lets everyone just blame it on her "addiction" rather than take responsibility. After Dark Willow, everyone pretty much forgot about all the things Willow had done. No one ever lets Faith forget.
ANYA
(chuckles) You're here to— Well, that's great, Willow. Flayed anybody lately, have you? How quickly they forget!
WILLOW
I haven't forgotten one second of it.
I think Willow feels guilty for what she had done. She was forced to come back to Sunnydale because she was needed, and once you're in Sunnydale you get caught up in all the weirdness. Willow helping save the world is better than being locked up in jail.
(chuckles) You're here to— Well, that's great, Willow. Flayed anybody lately, have you? How quickly they forget!
WILLOW
I haven't forgotten one second of it.
I think Willow feels guilty for what she had done. She was forced to come back to Sunnydale because she was needed, and once you're in Sunnydale you get caught up in all the weirdness. Willow helping save the world is better than being locked up in jail.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Well I think Faith did more evil - because of her intent since Willow's was simple vengeance (but I still maintain that the attempted world destroying was ALL on Willow because of her emotions)- but Willow got many, many more chances both before and after.
The amount of times she screwed up before the Dark Willow rampage is staggering and she gets almost instant support from both Xander and Buffy when she returns to Sunnydale (and hey, their her friends so that's great, worthy stuff).
Faith simply doesn't. She gets a couple of chances and then that's pretty much it. But she does the long-haul redemption thing anyway.
I think they both regret their past actions but they guide Faith more than Willow. Willow sees her actions as a 'blip' whereas Faith's are a reminder of where her power comes from and where it can lead if she's not careful.
Willow has friends but Faith has her mentor 'sponsor' (Angel) who helped her cope.
The amount of times she screwed up before the Dark Willow rampage is staggering and she gets almost instant support from both Xander and Buffy when she returns to Sunnydale (and hey, their her friends so that's great, worthy stuff).
Faith simply doesn't. She gets a couple of chances and then that's pretty much it. But she does the long-haul redemption thing anyway.
I think they both regret their past actions but they guide Faith more than Willow. Willow sees her actions as a 'blip' whereas Faith's are a reminder of where her power comes from and where it can lead if she's not careful.
Willow has friends but Faith has her mentor 'sponsor' (Angel) who helped her cope.
Klaus Kartoffel
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I don't know how I would behave when I'm full to the brim with black magic and would feel all the pain of every single human of the entire planet. And I claim that I don't have lingering genocidal thoughts who just wait for the right moment to come forth.
Doesn't sound very sane to me:
Willow: "Head rush...wow... Whoa. Who's your supplier? This is-- Wow... It's incredible. I'm so juiced... (sharing) Giles... It's like... No mortal person has ever had this much power. Ever. It's like I'm connected to everything... I can feel...(euphoria fades)...everyone. Oh. Oh my God. All the emotion. The pain. No, It's too much. Oh, it's just too much... "
Giles confirmed it:
Giles: "Oh, how could I? In any case, the magic she took from me tapped into the spark of humanity she had left. Helped her to feel again... gave Xander the opportunity to reach her."
The magic she sucked up from the Magic Box, Rack and Giles definitely clouded her mind and rational thought.
The grief about Tara is just a fraction of her motive here. If it's all just Willow then why did she go through the trouble of saving Buffy first? She could have gone directly to Rack, drain him and then gone directly to Kingman's Bluff to destroy the world. Nope, Willow wasn't sane anymore. However, most of her deeds & behaviours are grossly OOC in S06, IMO, or are just approximately plausible with *mind-altering* and * behaviour modifying* influences like for instance a drug addiction or black magic in general.
As for chances. I think there's a difference between betraying someone to the enemy and majorly screwing up because of emotional immaturity and addiction. Willow's intents were never evil until the murder of Warren. Faith's intents, however, were evil. That doesn't mean Faith was treated fair in S03 just that they're not comparable.
Willow got support from Xander and Kennedy in S07 not so much from Buffy.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
The magic Willow sucked from Giles was 'good' magic- the pure essence of magic as he told Anya- which would counteract/balance all the negative mojo she was sucking up.
Therefore I consider 'world-destroyer' Willow to be more balanced and 'Willow-like' (i.e in touch with her humanity) than the vein-y chick that tried to murder Dawn, Giles and then everyone else with a massive targeted fireball (which would've incinerated Xander, Dawn and the two nerds).
If somebody sucks up all that 'good' magic they should get better, not worse, unless of course their Willow.
Willow's humanity is more prominent when she's trying to destroy the world.
Compare it to Cordelia who felt all human suffering when the PtB vision channel was open to her. What happened? She got more humane, not less.
I never said that Dark Willow was wholly evil right away, it was a process. She sucked up the Magic Box evil, then saved Buffy, then went after Warren and flayed him alive
(i consider this still pretty Willow avenging Tara).
Then in the process of trying to kill Jonathan and Andrew she has to recharge by 'killing' Rack and draining him power. This is when she becomes really dark and does the most intentionally evil stuff to her friends/loved ones. Dawn, Buffy, Giles- she doesn't care who she hurts/almost kills.
This changes when she drains Giles- her focus shifts.
It's a process, bad then worse then 'better', then actually better thanks to Xander talking her down. Xander couldn't have done that unless it was actually Willow on Kingmans's Bluff.
But that wouldn't explain why Willow kept on 'having episodes' quite a few times in S7. If it was now nothing to do with Willow then why the black hair/eyes?
Answer- she had now tapped into part of herself, the reckless, arrogant part that had always been there from S3 onward. The dark part was always there- Willow handles pain- emotional pain- badly.
Threatening Xander with a fire axe in S2 BB&B, the almost cursing Oz/Verucca in S4, 'Something Blue' in S4, 'Tough Love' in S5 and it goes on.
DW fits the pattern that everyone- most of all Willow- ignored for too long and the world almost ended because of it.
Klaus Kartoffel
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Cordelia didn't felt them suffering, she saw them, and not at once but in short order, that is a difference. During her vision marathon, she wasn't able to do anything because of the physical pain the visions were causing and in result were putting her into a delirium. When they stopped and Cordelia didn't saw them anymore, when it was over, then Cordelia decided that she wanted to help them.
Willow, on the other hand, *felt* the emotional pain of every human on the planet *at once*. That has to do something to you, regardless if it's black or light magic. The color of the magic doesn't matter here or if Willow was less or more human. I can't imagine S04 Willow trying to destroy the world if the Initiative had killed Oz in "New Moon Rising" for instance, even if she had had the power then. You are right that Willow handled emotional pain badly. However, when she tried to destroy the world in "Grave" it was not just her own pain, it was the pain of everyone that caused it. It's in the dialogue line. That's because I meant Giles miscalculated and would have been complicit if Xander hadn't luckily saved the day. *Feeling* the emotional pain of everyone at once, like they would be my own, must have repercussions on the mind.
Yeah, I know that it was a process. The murder of Warren, including the method and torture albeit fed through dark magic, is actually something I buy since it's foreshadowed in "Wild at Heart" and especially in "Tough Love". However, in "Wild at Heart" she couldn't do it because she loved Oz and that's where I get a serious problem believing Willow trying to kill Buffy, Dawn, Xander and Giles while it's still pure Willow. She loved them as well and never had shown any hateful or murderous thoughts about them. She was mad, hurt or angry at occasions but not hateful. It's only possible when she isn't in her right mind or the black magic is suppressing her soul or something, IMO.
It's the other way around.
Giles said himself that magic (including black magic) is now a part of Willow. She had her "episodes" when she tapped into that magic to defend herself, attempted a spell etc. which in return had repercussions on her personality and she had to concentrate to force herself back into control. That means the black magic is influencing her personality, or the balance of her dark and light side or whatever, negatively. Look in "Get it Done" when she tries to bring Buffy back from the shadow men. She spoke the spell and nothing happens at first, she calmly said it may take a while and suddenly she's all black eyed and screaming like a banshee. It was the magic what took her over and caused her darker side to come forth, not her darker side coming forth so Willow can do magic. When Xander pulled her out of the circle she immediately calmed down, hence it's the magic that is the trigger.
And btw. BB&B doesn't count. Willow was by far not the only girl who wanted to kill Xander. There was a whole mob... and Joyce. I assign that 100% to the love spell and have in general problems when the early seasons are used for "evidence" of Willow's *evilness*. The foreshadowing of vengeful Willow,began in S04 with "Wild at Heart". 🙂
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
She does. Intimately. Cordelia feels the pain of the victim, that's partly what her visions are about.
It makes her more human- the empathy- and so her 'destroy all humans' (although understandable) still makes Willow more culpable than when she's trying to kill Buffy and co- in my opinion.
Look, I blame Faith for torturing Wesley- even though she was emotionally broken and wanting to die at that point- and I blame Willow for trying to destroy the world- she was also emotionally broken and wanting to die at that point.
And yep, Giles would've been complicit had she succeeded. It was a risk that he took.
Again, I understand that. But it doesn't excuse her actions. Being in lots of pain does not make something 'okay' or absolve somebody of responsibility. The apin/empathy makes you more culpable, not less. Giles explanation of the magic shows as much
Buffy, Jenny Calander and Amy never attempted to harm Xander and at least there there was more build-up there. Xander gives Willow one brush off and then suddenly she's at the front of an angry mob.
Again, it isn't our 'Willow' but Willow is under the influence of magic- which is why I could completely believe that she'd try and kill everyone if she was swallowed by dark magics and they were all getting in her way of vengeance/payback.
Here I can see your point. The events of the end of S6 clearly changed Willow in some way from before. Magic has consequences.
But you could say the same of every powerful spell that Willow has ever attempted though, such as the S2 ensoulment spell that started her journey, or the dark sacrifice spell at the beginning of S6 - that too could've more subtly affected her personality, bringing out her less sympathetic traits in the season that followed?
Klaus Kartoffel
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It sparked the remains of her humanity left, so Xander was able to reach her and restore her complete humanity, I agree. I also agree that she wanted to die. Destroying the world is for me separate matter, however. It's not about Willow's humanity, it's the psychological effect of feeling the emotional pain from everyone at once. Like, for instance, if you inflict enough physical, mental or psychological pain on your victim, you can bring him or her to do anything you want or in general to atypical behavior, eventually, and your victim couldn't be held responsible. If I'd feel the pain of the entire planet at once and had the power to end it, I don't know what I would do because I wouldn't be lucid. I totally can believe that killing everyone may appear like an act of mercy and a good deed to me even though it's incredible evil and a simple suicide would be the better alternative in this case. Maybe, I could follow your point better if Willow would have felt not only all the pain but other emotions like joy, happiness, anger etc. as well so she could make a more rational decision by comparing the pros and cons (ignoring the fact that feeling all emotions at once would make you all the more gaga 😀).
Though I can basically follow your reasoning, I guess I have to agree to disagree in this case. I blame Willow for draining the Magic Box, killing and torturing Warren (albeit fed up by the dark magic which increased her cruelty), going after Andrew and Jonathan the first time, the heavy handling of Xander and Buffy and then for draining Rack. After that, Willow had left the building to lala land and only came back via Xander's unconditional love. She is to blame that she brought herself to this place in the first place, of course.🙂
With enough pain you can bring everyone to everything. I never said it makes it okay, and Willow is to be held responsible for ending up with draining Giles in the first place.
Buffy was a rat and before she was on the verge to get violent with Amy. And she was really really pissed at Xander when he rejected her. She definitely had turned against Xander as well, eventually. Giles managed to hold Amy and Jenny back, which only worked because he send Xander away whereas Willow was alone and isolated. No Giles who could distract her with other tasks. Harmony, a whole bunch of screaming girls, Joyce, who isn't really emotional weak like Willow, they all came to the same conclusion that killing Xander is better than seeing him with another woman. No, no prove that especially Willow is automatically willing to kill when in emotional distress and under the influence of magic.
I agree, it makes sense that the magic affected Willow since the restoration spell when she began her career as a witch. Especially if we take the addiction into account as well as the obvious repercussions on her personality in the last three episodes of S06 or "Though Love" for instance. Only in a much smaller and slower scale and more fragmented since the magic never altered her personality permanently. Her character flaws definitely contributed in a great deal but I think the magic worked like a catalyst and encouraged them to be more and more present when Willow was in distress. That's why I criticize Giles so vehemently, apart of a few half-hearted warnings and hiding some books (by which he contradicted himself. Asking Willow to hack into files by refusing to take any responsibility for it, but expecting that she won't "hack" into his books) he mostly ignored her and looked the other way and he knew best what magic was about. But that's going too much Off-Topic now...