Who earned his soul the most?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Perny
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Kana said:
Angel went from being a powerful existential hero in Season 2 to a nihilistic has been in Season 5.
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Powerful? he was impotent. The only time he had power WAS in Season 5. A nihilist or not (insert big lebowski joke here) you can't say he was more powerful in S2 vs S5. Well, I guess you can because you did but you would be wrong to do so.
 
scobro said:
Powerful? he was impotent. The only time he had power WAS in Season 5. A nihilist or not (insert big lebowski joke here) you can't say he was more powerful in S2 vs S5. Well, I guess you can because you did but you would be wrong to do so.
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Well, I meant more in terms of will. Angel was least of all powerful in Season 5 as Hauser observed, less so than usual because W&H owned him. The real power Angel had in Season 2 was......Conviction!
 
Kana said:
Well, I meant more in terms of will. Angel was least of all powerful in Season 5 as Hauser observed, less so than usual because W&H owned him. The real power Angel had in Season 2 was......Conviction!
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hmm.. but then the question needs to be asked how you measure power? is it what you wield on a daily basis or what you have at your command. For that reason I say he was more powerful at W&H. He had more power at his command. His will wasnt 'in it' because he was an egotistical person. He needed to jump from rooftop to rooftop to feel important. It was EGO that fed him, not conviction.
 
scobro said:
hmm.. but then the question needs to be asked how you measure power? is it what you wield on a daily basis or what you have at your command. For that reason I say he was more powerful at W&H. He had more power at his command. His will wasnt 'in it' because he was an egotistical person. He needed to jump from rooftop to rooftop to feel important. It was EGO that fed him, not conviction.
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Disagree. His will wasn't in because he was working for an organization which basically stands for everything he stood against and he was used to feeling connected to what he was doing.

One can argue how much control we really have, but I think Angel was right when he talked about individual freedom. Perhaps powerful may not be the right word because it implies control above one's own faculties. I'd argue that Angel with less conviction wherever he may be was less in control than an Angel who believed in himself and what he was doing.
 
Kana said:
Disagree. His will wasn't in because he was working for an organization which basically stands for everything he stood against and he was used to feeling connected to what he was doing.

One can argue how much control we really have, but I think Angel was right when he talked about individual freedom. Perhaps powerful may not be the right word because it implies control above one's own faculties. I'd argue that Angel with less conviction wherever he may be was less in control than an Angel who believed in himself and what he was doing.
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We could go back and forth with this. I will sum up my argument with this closing statement.

I'm right and you're wrong.. neener neener!

I could really care less.. I just know a megalomaniacal egomaniac when I see one.. and from episode one of Buffy that has been a trait in Angel. That's why I love the character so much!
 
Kana
Kana
Not a megalomaniac, just nice guy with serious personality disorder
We see in Why We Fight that in the 1940's Angel lives in a comfortable apartment. In we see in Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been that he's living at the Hyperion. After 75 years of having a soul, Angel feeds off a human (sure, it's going to die anyway, but hey [/i]human[/i]. Two years after getting his soul Angel is cognizant enough to head back to his vamp family, only to leave again when he can't kill 'innnocent' humans.

So who earned it more? Angel has always been my favorite of the two, but if we go by what the BTVS/ATS writers have given us, Spike is the more noble ensouled vampire. He asked for a soul, case closed.
 
M
MSchett
I was fairly sure that Angel didn't feed off the guy who got shot before he was dead...
AvatarofTruth said:
So who earned it more? Angel has always been my favorite of the two, but if we go by what the BTVS/ATS writers have given us, Spike is the more noble ensouled vampire. He asked for a soul, case closed.
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Actually It all depends on your perspective if your saying who earned there soul more pre-ensouling then of course Spike, but post-ensouling Angel has earned it quite a bit more...
 
Airam
Airam
well yeah but its not a fair comparison because Angel has had it far longer.
both earned there sould in a matter of speaking

angelus was such a monster something had to be done other than killing him cursing him was the only real option so in this sence angelus earned the punishment of his soul

however spike wanted his soul back to make him a better man, a man he thought buffy could grow to love. spike put himself through trials to earn his soul he worked dam hard for the grand prize and he did so through both mental and physical challenges.

so whilst angelus earned his soul through being such a monster, spike did it to himself so this to me means spike is the vamp who truely earned his soul
 
P
Perny
Can't argue with that!
No. The chip did not make it so that he HAD to do this. If he hated them all so much, the very last thing he would have wanted to do was find any kind of refuge in them. He could have left town, far from the Initiative, fought demons in order to get the violence out elsewhere (if we're assuming he just had to fight something) and found someone that could help him figure out what the chip did and how to get it out or neutralize it. I just don't don't believe any of this HAD to be accomplished in Sunnydale.
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Okay, so let me rephrase then. The chip obviously didn't have the power to force Spike to do anything, other than not hurt humans without intense pain. But because of the chip, Spike did these things. And it wasn't necessarily because he was a good person underneath it all. He wanted to hurt things, and demons were his only option. He wanted protection, he had an unhealthy obsession with the Slayer, Sunnydale is a good place for a vampire to live, so he stuck around them.

Spike is violent by nature - that's true - the demon that was in his body before he got his soul back was violent by nature - William wasn't, and when he got his soul back Spike became a man again - he became an ex-demon.

William was a nice, sweet man who just wanted to be loved by someone - he got rejected and then sired. Because the demon that took over his human form has access to his memories it took revenge for him and thus he became William the Bloody or Spike because of 'his' (the demon that is, not William) favourite method of torture.
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Right, which is why I said SPIKE, not William.

Angel came, gave Buffy the talisman which ultimately Spike wore and buggered off back to LA because Buffy told him to go - if he loved her he would have put his foot down and stayed for the battle against the First... but Angel being Angel decided to save his own skin and head back to LA... Okay, so he saved the world once or twice himself afterward, but that's not the point here.
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That's like saying if Buffy had really loved Angel, she wouldn't have killed him S2. I.e., that's ridiculous. Buffy had a point in Chosen. She needed to make sure that if they failed, there was hope left for the fate of the world. I'm sorry if that translates into Angel's a selfish coward in your mind.
 
Definitely Spike. As much as I like Angel, he didn't go through trials to get his soul back, he had it cursed onto him by gypsies. Heck, if the gypsies hadn't done that him, he would still be the same old Angelus. Spike got a soul to be a better man for Buffy and endured hell knows what while all Angel did was have it put into him. Sure, he had to endure a century of insanity, but it still doesn't give him the soul. Soulless Angelus never wanted a soul, and never will, while soulless Spike wanted a soul and has one. Does that sound right?
 
Airam
Airam
sounds good to me :)
Ellyce said:
Definitely Spike. As much as I like Angel, he didn't go through trials to get his soul back, he had it cursed onto him by gypsies. Heck, if the gypsies hadn't done that him, he would still be the same old Angelus. Spike got a soul to be a better man for Buffy and endured hell knows what while all Angel did was have it put into him. Sure, he had to endure a century of insanity, but it still doesn't give him the soul. Soulless Angelus never wanted a soul, and never will, while soulless Spike wanted a soul and has one. Does that sound right?
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If Spike had not been Chipped by the Initiative would he have fought for his Soul?

What if Angelus had been Chipped and forced to stay with the Scoobies.

BOTH characters earned their soul, it is as simple as that.

Angel earned his after he was cursed with it, even though it took time - but then he was shunned.

Spike before and after - though he had alot of help along the way.
 
^ I disagree....

I don't think you can earn your soul when you fist got cursed with it. Even though he makes up for what he did, Angel was forced a soul because of his evilness. He can't deserve it. It hasn't anything to do with my love for Spike (DIE ANGEL, FRY IN SUNLIGHT) but I can't see how he can deserve it!
 
pernilleborup said:
^ I disagree....

I don't think you can earn your soul when you fist got cursed with it. Even though he makes up for what he did, Angel was forced a soul because of his evilness. He can't deserve it. It hasn't anything to do with my love for Spike (DIE ANGEL, FRY IN SUNLIGHT) but I can't see how he can deserve it!
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet!

Angel was never forced to have a soul, Angelus was.

Angel is the product. He fought bloody hard to be worthy, after all his years of brooding and moping.

Angel earned his soul. It was a 'buy now, pay later' deal.
 
Bored of the Dead said:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nadda, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet, nyet!

Angel was never forced to have a soul, Angelus was.

Angel is the product. He fought bloody hard to be worthy, after all his years of brooding and moping.

Angel earned his soul. It was a 'buy now, pay later' deal.
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Over drama queen much over a typo? Shame!

I'm just saying, he should have pulled himself together in his many years of brooding and moping
 
pernilleborup said:
Over drama queen much over a typo? Shame!
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What?

pernilleborup said:
I'm just saying, he should have pulled himself together in his many years of brooding and moping
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Why should he?
Did the brooding stop him from doing the right thing?

Even before Buffy, when someone needed help, though reluctant, he offered it and then he was stabbed in the back.

In fact inspite of 'humankind' he still fought the good fight.

People act as though brooding makes you a bad person, it doesn't, it is a facet of his character, that is all.
 
Bored of the Dead said:
People act as though brooding makes you a bad person, it doesn't, it is a facet of his character, that is all.
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No no no no... I don't see Angel's brooding making him a bad person. I just see it as him being stuck in an eternal "Poor souled me" fase!

I can't keep this going Alister... I know you like to discuss, I know you know WAY more about the angel series tahn I do, and you are better at discussing, cos you speak english better than I do.... We won't get any further...I won't give in...

Hope we still are friends tho.. (heavy convo's gets my temper up:nibble6🙂
 
pernilleborup said:
No no no no... I don't see Angel's brooding making him a bad person. I just see it as him being stuck in an eternal "Poor souled me" fase!

I can't keep this going Alister... I know you like to discuss, I know you know WAY more about the angel series tahn I do, and you are better at discussing, cos you speak english better than I do.... We won't get any further...I won't give in...

Hope we still are friends tho.. (heavy convo's gets my temper up:nibble6🙂
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See, if I believe I am correct, I can keep going.

It doesn't bother me that he brooded, what would bother me is if it stopped him from stepping up to the mark. We all have our personal quirks.

Angel had moments of doubt but he always came through in the end - thats what makes him a hero, a champion and thats why he earned his soul.

Why would you think it would affect the friendship that we discussed something?
 
Bored of the Dead said:
Why would you think it would affect the friendship that we discussed something?
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Because it's how I am...Call it my quirk.. I always fear that I can loose a friend* if we don't agree on something...



* By friend I of course mean, nemesis...grrrrr That Alister....grrr*shakes fist*
 
pernilleborup said:
Because it's how I am...Call it my quirk.. I always fear that I can loose a friend* if we agree on something...

* By friend I of course mean, nemesis...grrrrr That Alister....grrr*shakes fist*
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Trust me, IF in the realm of debate you stand your corner (WITH substantiative arguments and not stupidity) then I don't have anything but respect and admiration.
 
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