Who is the best leader?

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Angel or Buffy? 🙂

I have discussed it with my sister, but we are totally clueless 😕

 

[Bluebird]

I'd say they're both great leaders, but that Buffy is slightly better than Angel. As much as I love Angel, he has a slightly bad tendency to make decisions for people without their consent or knowledge.

 

[Kean]

Neither of them are exactly perfect. When I think about each of their leadership styles I can't help but think about how they both have this tendency to rash or ill thought out decisions that phase out their team.

I think Angel comes off better as a leader but I think that is because he had a better team that facilitated him and his style.

Honestly, I think Wesley may be the best leader out of the whole verse. Even then, he messed up a lot.

The more I think about this the more I feel like the verse is actually lacking in a natural born leader.

 

[Blaze]

If were speaking technically only about killing, then I'd say Buffy. She is shown to be slightly stronger and she's a very good fighter. She's also shown to be able to beat Angel in a fair fight.

But as a whole, I don't think I can put either of them above the other. They have a very different fighting style, and a very different strategic style. They fight some very different demons. Buffy I think does better when it actually comes to fighting the bad guy. Angel does better in his job of helping the helpless, and dealing with more abstract problems (like WR&H).

 

[Robb Stark]

Angel is the best leader in the Buffyverse.

I know a lot of people won't like or agree with this, but Buffy, as much as I love her, isn't a very talented leader. She's fine at the beginning, but towards the end of the series she has no mind whatsoever for strategy or tactics. Her entire...um..."leadership" style consists of her just yelling at people who disagree with her. I can write an essay about the mess that was her S7 plan against The First and Caleb. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that she was just plain suicidal or all rational thought had totally abandoned her.

She's better earlier in the series, and has some great moments. The way she defeats The Judge and The Mayor are excellent examples. She had a great ability to rally and motivate and obviously has a strong track record of success. The problem is it just doesn't stick around long enough. And there are early signs. I mean, look at her rationale against The Master in "Prophecy Girl" for goodness sake. I think that Buffy is an able field commander, but as a general, as a real leader, she's not even in the Top 5 on either show.

Angel meanwhile, is an exceptional leader. Like everyone on the series, he messes up from time to time, but the vast majority of the time he's far and away the best leader around. By S7 the Scoobies are hanging on by a thread, and are hardly a team. Throughout everything they go through, the Angel Investigations squad remains united, and everytime they go through trials and tribulations they come back together stronger. Angel is that glue. Every member of that team not only follows him, they want to follow him.

Angel has just as much success as Buffy does, but he does a much better job of holding himself and his team together. He's able to deal with stress far better, he cares about the mission but at the same time he cares about his people and what they're dealing with. He's able to unite, even with those he doesn't get along with. He goes through huge trouble with Wes, differs greatly with Gunn and has all kinds of issue with Spike, but in the end they all follow him, they all trust him and they all know he'll get the job done. I can't say enough about what a leader Angel is.

 

[Taake]

For me it's probably Wesley.

Not an option? Ok, then I'll say Angel and refer you to the excellent points made below;

Angel has just as much success as Buffy does, but he does a much better job of holding himself and his team together. He's able to deal with stress far better, he cares about the mission but at the same time he cares about his people and what they're dealing with. He's able to unite, even with those he doesn't get along with. He goes through huge trouble with Wes, differs greatly with Gunn and has all kinds of issue with Spike, but in the end they all follow him, they all trust him and they all know he'll get the job done. I can't say enough about what a leader Angel is.

 

[Kean]

Angel meanwhile, is an exceptional leader. Like everyone on the series, he messes up from time to time, but the vast majority of the time he's far and away the best leader around. By S7 the Scoobies are hanging on by a thread, and are hardly a team. Throughout everything they go through, the Angel Investigations squad remains united, and everytime they go through trials and tribulations they come back together stronger. Angel is that glue. Every member of that team not only follows him, they want to follow him.

Angel has just as much success as Buffy does, but he does a much better job of holding himself and his team together. He's able to deal with stress far better, he cares about the mission but at the same time he cares about his people and what they're dealing with. He's able to unite, even with those he doesn't get along with. He goes through huge trouble with Wes, differs greatly with Gunn and has all kinds of issue with Spike, but in the end they all follow him, they all trust him and they all know he'll get the job done. I can't say enough about what a leader Angel is.

I can't quite explain this feeling, because honestly I'd follow Angel into Hell if he asked me to, but I feel like a huge deal of the AI Team's cohesiveness is due to that fact that they all want to be part of the same fight and were doing it before they met him. When Angel isn't there they continue the work. They have all collectively made the decision that the mission is what matters, not those fighting in. And in some strange way that has rendered them a better team and much healthier group.

I think Angel is great warrior and I think his ability to empathise with people's pain makes him a great champion of people but his tendency to get sucked into a tunnel vision makes me hesitate in calling him a great leader. Sometimes he gets lost and he doesn't take his team with him.

I really don't know if anyone in the verse fills the image of what a great leader is in my head.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm reading an excellent biography right now on U.S. Grant, and much of the book deals with his leadership style on and off the battlefield. There's an excellent passage regarding the Battle of Shiloh which I literally just read and felt applied to how I think about Angel and the way he leads:

A general imparts to an army. It is not simply a matter of issuing orders, but infusing spirit and initiative. An inchoate bond develops between a successful commander and the army. His will becomes theirs. Grant's relationship with the Army of the Tennessee at Shiloh exemplified that bond. Lee established it with the Army of Northern Virginia. Washington did it with the Continental Army. The men fought because they knew Grant expected them to, and they trusted his judgement that they could do so.

--Grant, Jean Edward Smith, P. 201, Shiloh

Buffy doesn't do that. I really feel like Angel does.

---------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------
[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION],

Kean agrees: Oddly enough I feel that that quote describes the Scoobies rather than the AI Team. They don't fight because Angel expects it of them, they fight because they feel the pull to it themselves, though Angel did give them a greater platform.

Maybe to an extent. The problem is that after S5 and even into S8 (I haven't read S9 so I can't really say there) the Scoobies don't remain united or even really together. Buffy isn't able to muster any sort of real or lasting inspiration for her team. She tries, but it feels to me that she's just lost the ability to. I think at one point she had that quality, but not anymore. It's kind of crappy, because the Buffy I love and admire from S1-3 isn't the same character after a certain point, and I'm kind of finding it's affecting how I perceive her 🙁.

In contrast, how Angel brings the AI squad together towards the final few episodes is pretty remarkable, all things considered. His plan of action in "Not Fade Away" is derived completely from his ability to rally an incredibly dispirited group of people. However, I do know what you mean.

 

[Kean]

I'm reading an excellent biography right now on U.S. Grant, and much of the book deals with his leadership style on and off the battlefield. There's an excellent passage regarding the Battle of Shiloh which I literally just read and felt applied to how I think about Angel and the way he leads:



Buffy doesn't do that. I really feel like Angel does.

---------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------
[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION],



Maybe to an extent. The problem is that after S5 and even into S8 (I haven't read S9 so I can't really say there) the Scoobies don't remain united or even really together. Buffy isn't able to muster any sort of real or lasting inspiration for her team. She tries, but it feels to me that she's just lost the ability to. I think at one point she had that quality, but not anymore. It's kind of crappy, because the Buffy I love and admire from S1-3 isn't the same character after a certain point, and I'm kind of finding it's affecting how I perceive her 🙁.

In contrast, how Angel brings the AI squad together towards the final few episodes is pretty remarkable, all things considered. His plan of action in "Not Fade Away" is derived completely from his ability to rally an incredibly dispirited group of people. However, I do know what you mean.

I completely get you, and I've used the exact same comparison several times to illustrate why I believe the AI Team is the better unit.

I think what is catching me is that I feel like the Scoobies were fighting specifically because Buffy was, even when they were falling apart, they took up her fight. They may have lost the connection to her as a person by that stage, but in terms of fighting, they still looked to her... until Empty Places, I suppose. I'm fixating more on the being inspired to fight for an individual aspect more than the actual success of that approach.

With the AI Team I feel like they would take up Angel's fight but so much of that was in believing in it themselves, for themselves, anyway. In a nutshell I feel like the AI Team committed themselves to the struggle, whereas the Scoobies committed to Buffy.

 

[Taake]

In a nutshell I feel like the AI Team committed themselves to the struggle, whereas the Scoobies committed to Buffy.

I think that's a good point but for me I feel like that fades with the Scoobs as time moves on. They are still committed to Buffy as a person but more in the sense of a figurehead rather than their actual leader. On the show they still cling to Buffy (eg use of Buffybot when Buffy is gone) but they are committed to the struggle and only seem to follow Buffy because they feel like they 'need' to rally behind the image of who she used to be.

But for me as season 7-8 goes on and the Scoobs get more powerful/confident in their own abilities they have less and less of a need of the Buffy they have envisioned to bolster their spirits. If Buffy was to die again they wouldn't give up the fight, they wouldn't desperately try to bring her back just rally around the shield of her Slayer power, they would just find a new leader (probably Willow) and carry on the torch, committed to the struggle more than to the person who got them into it 🙂

 

[Kana]

I have no idea to be honest, I think they are both good leaders in their own right. I do think it helps that Angel had a more formal recognition of his authority as, for the most part of the series, Team Angel were his employees and this was followed to degree by Wesley when he took over. Compare these quotes.

Wesley: "I thought we were a team."
Angel: "We're not a team. I'm your boss. You go where I tell you and I tell you to lay low,"

Wesley: "If you ever withhold information or attempt to subvert me again, I will fire you. - I can't have any one member of the team compromising the safety of the group, no matter who it is. If you do it again you will be dismissed, bag and baggage, out of a job onto the streets."

Willow: "Being the Slayer doesn't automatically make you boss.

I think this is important as it highlights the level of formal authority on both cases.

I'm not sure who is the best leader though. Angel on occasion has taken up courses of action that can be described as insane and Buffy has been very lucky on a few occasions with some deus ex machina amulets, dreams or 'Slayer intuition' pulling her through.

Angel is an interesting one though. The guy managed the manipulate some of the most powerful organizations in the word. All I can say is that I'd prefer Angel on our side....

 

[TiMER]

Well Angel went dark and fired everyone and Buffy became so unpopular among the people she was leading that she was kicked out of her own house. As far as leadership track records go, both of theirs aren't so shiny and glossy. However, I do believe that Angel is a better leader.

A good example is Angel was always ready to fight the good fight and do what's right for the majority instead of letting his emotions control his decisions. For instance, Buffy couldn't kill Angel at the end of Innocence which lead to deaths that could have been avoided. I know that her emotions are assets to her but it's undeniable that her emotional attachments to situations did a lot of damage.

While it can be said that it was the same for Angel on a smaller scale, he always knew he had to put his own wants and needs aside to do what's best. Cordelia was his closest friend but he knew he had to kill Cordelia to stop Jasmine, even though that didn't end up working out.

 

[Kean]

Well Angel went dark and fired everyone and Buffy became so unpopular among the people she was leading that she was kicked out of her own house. As far as leadership track records go, both of theirs aren't so shiny and glossy. However, I do believe that Angel is a better leader.

A good example is Angel was always ready to fight the good fight and do what's right for the majority instead of letting his emotions control his decisions. For instance, Buffy couldn't kill Angel at the end of Innocence which lead to deaths that could have been avoided. I know that her emotions are assets to her but it's undeniable that her emotional attachments to situations did a lot of damage.

While it can be said that it was the same for Angel on a smaller scale, he always knew he had to put his own wants and needs aside to do what's best. Cordelia was his closest friend but he knew he had to kill Cordelia to stop Jasmine, even though that didn't end up working out.

Angel isn't very consistent in this though. For every instance when he puts the cause or the wellbeing of someone he loves above himself, there are moments when he gets lost in his own personal causes e.g. with Darla in S2 and pretty much his whole campaign against W&H.

I think Angel (and Buffy) are the best warriors the verse has ever seen. I think they have had incredibly moments as leaders and their ability to make the horrible decisions that need to be made are clear as day, but I don't think they flourish as leaders of people. I think their sweets spots are in having teams around them that facilitate them in the tough choices they need to make. I think Buffy and Angel both feel constrained by having to actually lead a group or army. That isn't where their strengths lie.

The only way I can describe it is by comparing it to football (soccer): Buffy and Angel are strikers. They literally lead the team, are absolutely figureheads, but they aren't necessarily the best leaders. They need the freedom to go off and do their own thing without having to worry about the rest of the team.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think Angel has a pretty good track record. It is important to note when discussing leadership qualities that when it comes to grand strategy, VERY few leaders are perfect. Almost all of them lose or botch something at some point. Eisenhower was the mastermind behind D-Day, but people forget the war was almost lost because of his mistakes in North Africa. Winston Churchill's resilience saved the world as we know it, but he was a staunch opponent to D-Day every step of the way, the decisive Allied offensive of the war. Napoleon was one of the greatest, most innovative strategists and tacticians the world has ever seen, on and off the battlefield, but his invasion of Russia led to his ultimate downfall. Hannibal might have been THE best tactician of all time, he repeatedly made a mockery of the often much larger Roman legions, but he was unable to take Rome because he couldn't read the political climate of the surrounding areas and because he didn't comprehend the magnitude and importance of supply and provisions.

My point is that great leaders, even legendary ones, DO make mistakes. Angel is no exception. He has screwed up. But when you weigh things like firing his team for a time in S2 against the success he had against Wolfram & Hart, a vastly larger enemy with near infinite resources and influence, the way he was able to manipulate and play them, I think his record stands for itself. He runs an incredible campaign in "After the Fall" which, when you think about it, can only really be described as magnificent.

Buffy has her moments, but she has zero ability to plan. S6, 7 and 8, when you examine them beyond just the scope of win or lose, are a joke. Plot luck intervenes so many times it's just silly. And I really liked [MENTION=7540]Kana[/MENTION]'s descriptions of the top-down leadership structures of both groups, and how they compare. Buffy's is just a mess, while Angel's (and Wesley's I suppose) are very organized, very clear and as such very effective. Angel leads because his team believes in him, fully and completely. And when they don't, Wesley takes over to great effect until they do. Buffy relies on her increasingly tired line of "because I'm the Slayer" and when that finally wears thin, the Scoobies just hand the reigns to Faith, a person so unqualified to lead it's ridiculous. I know some people don't like it, but military style leadership NEEDS to be structured. Both the Scoobies and AI repeatedly identify their missions as fighting a war. Well, war is NOT a democracy, and pretending it is leads to people getting killed. The Scoobies never understand that. Buffy pretends she does at times, but it's clear by her actions that she doesn't get it either.

 

[The Bronze]

Not entirely sure which side I come down on here. I'll have to give it some thought. I would like to raise one point though which seems to have been over looked a little.

@Robb Stark

But when you weigh things like firing his team for a time in S2 against the success he had against Wolfram & Hart, a vastly larger enemy with near infinite resources and influence, the way he was able to manipulate and play them, I think his record stands for itself.

I think it's fair to say that Angel's job against Wolfram & Hart is made a lot easier by the fact they're not his enemy. They want Angel alive and on their team. So effectively they're fighting with their hands tied behind their back. In fact far from being a direct enemy they would actually fight to keep Angel alive or well erm undead.