Who is the biggest woobie in the Buffyverse?

Samuel Reyes

Samuel Reyes

Chilling in SunnyD
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Basically, whose life sucks the most?

My vote goes to Angel. Knowing that without a soul you're a vicious, psychopathic creature who will kill everyone you love if he gets out has got to suck beyond belief.
He spent a hundred years in a hell dimension for something that wasn't even really his fault.
Being used as a tool for the Senior Partners and not knowing which side you're going to be on when the Apocalypse arrives has got to hurt a little.
Wesley kidnapped his son, who in turn was kidnapped by his mortal enemy, and who in turn believed Angel to be his mortal enemy.
Losing Connor.
Losing Cordelia.
Losing Buffy.
No perfect happiness.
And this is before the whole Twilight thing in Season 8, though to be fair that was a pretty stupid decision on Angel's part.

Faith put it best when she said: "Does the guy gotta pay for everything?"
(Yes, yes he does.)
 
Woobie is 'external' torment right? as opposed to internal torment cause by character flaws.

Angel is a good candidate since he does get screwed over a lot. Also its pretty consistant which is the thing- the guy can never be happy from Season to season.

Other candidates: Faith pre-going evil since nobody gives a crap about her, and post-jail where she tends to get screwed over by circumstance as much as anything.

Wesley post Couplet, loses the girl, betrayal, throat slashed, all his friends abandoning him, lost and tormented, evenually gets back with the gang and finally gets the girl only for her to die slowly and painfully as she is possessed by an Old One. Then he dies. Urgh.

Maybe Xander? He gets overshadowed a lot, that's sort of his arc, plus he has a terrible love life- every girl he likes (apart from Dawn) is either evil or dies (or both).

Spike and Willow is S7- the writers mission is to basically try as hard as they can to make us feel sorry for them.


On a side note almost all of these characters are subject to utter woobie-fication in a lot of fan-fic with pretty terrible results. If its done poorly turns into crappy hurt/comfort fanfic, which I HATE.
 
Samuel Reyes
Samuel Reyes
You forgot Connor. As annoying as he was in Seasons 3 and 4, he had it pretty bad.
thetopher said:
Spike and Willow is S7- the writers mission is to basically try as hard as they can to make us feel sorry for them.
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Yes, but did it work? Unlike Faith they're pretty much given a free pass and not frowned upon for their actions: 'Buffy likes you so we try not to question her judgement.' Well, except for Giles (in Spike's case), and even then we're meant to think he's wrong.

I'm not saying that I don't feel sorry for them, but when you draw comparisons with other characters it just seems rather unfair.
 
Buffy. The character's appeal is, in part, based around the compassion-inducing cycles of suffering to the point where Buffy's life basically becomes a martyrdom fantasy. Buffy's better because she suffers more - it's such a flagellantist bullshit.
 
Samuel Reyes said:
Yes, but did it work? Unlike Faith they're pretty much given a free pass and not frowned upon for their actions: 'Buffy likes you so we try not to question her judgement.' Well, except for Giles (in Spike's case), and even then we're meant to think he's wrong.
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Woobie-fication is done for two reasons. If done well it's basically a dramatic device- bad things happening to good people is the source of all drama to a certain extent.
But if done poorly its a device designed to make the audience (or certain characters...) feel sorry for the character because of the whole hurt/carthasis cycle.

I always view the term woobie negatively anyway and usually associate it with the latter (because of the fan-fic factor).

Angel is rarely punished on his show as a way of 'atoning' for past actions. There's no 'cause and effect' (the same with Buffy come to think of it)- the bad events happen seperately to his own actions. Darla screwing with him, his son being stolen, Cordy dying before he had a chance to find out if what they had was real- all of that is just 'bad' and not linked to any perception of the character.
The only instance I can think of is 'Epiphany' where Angel gets 'punished' throughout the entire episode for earlier going dark- his friends are cold towards him and he gets wailed on A LOT by demons and Lindsey.

Samuel Reyes said:
I'm not saying that I don't feel sorry for them, but when you draw comparisons with other characters it just seems rather unfair.
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I suppose it is unfair. And no I don't feel sorry for either of them.
I only point them out as an example of 'bad woobie' writing. It's all 'see! see how they suffer! They're good now.' 🙄
It's blatent writer manipulation.
 
I always thought this was a woobie
New%20Wrap%20n%20Snap%20Lullaby.jpg

The security blanket, not the baby. I never knew of another wobbie.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
That thing makes me feel claustrophobic
Samuel Reyes said:
No perfect happiness.
Click to expand...

Samuel Reyes said:
Being used as a tool for the Senior Partners and not knowing which side you're going to be on when the Apocalypse arrives has got to hurt a little.
Click to expand...

I think it's Angel - because, after all crap that happened to him, he is still the only one that cannot have hope (and he isn't dead dead, at peace somewhere). He can't be perfectly happy, and he believes when he is dusted he (his soul) will go to hell.
 
Other good woobie examples are Dawn and Tara, because they often seem victimized by the circumstances surrounding them.
Tara gets her brain sucked by Glory, then has her memory played with by Willow and is later shot dead by Warren (accidentally as well). The fact that she deserved none of this (she's actually the nicest character on the show) highlights her woobie status.
Dawn because of being hunted by Glory, losing her sister (and feeling that she was responsible for Buffy's death), being ignored by everyone in S6, etc.

And, like Samual Reyes mentioned Connor is another good example. A victim of Holtz, Justine and Jasdelia.

So basically the more innocent, the wore woobie-like, at least in terms of dramatic use.
 
GwenRaiden said:
Swaddling the baby times were good times. Now it's all punches in the face and kicks in the ribs at bedtime.
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You should never punch a baby in the face to get them to go to sleep; it leaves bruises and then everyone knows. Give them a teaspoon of whiskey.
 
It does seem, to me, at least, that Angel is far and away the character with the worst troubles of anyone in the Buffyverse, either through no fault of his own, or from his well intended efforts to make things right by screwing with other people's lives. Think about it, though. He's always been intended to be the natural whipping boy on either show. Everyone else, literally, everyone else on the two shows, pulls some bone headed screw up, disaster ensues, and by the next episode, it's all over, done with, and completely forgiven (Okay, that's something of an exaggeration, but not much of one)

Angel has, even though the canon of the show states that he is not actually responsible for, or obligated to atone for, all of Angelus' sins and wrongdoings. It wasn't really laid on him, so much as he voluntarily took it all himself. Xander summoned the Gentlemen, resulting in innocent people dying. Willow tried to destroy the world. Faith is a cold blooded murderer and an escaped felon. Spike has a list of sins in his past second only to Angel's. They all pretty much got over it and went on with their lives. Only Angel keeps heaping the blame onto himself. It's not so much a question of deserved, as it is self inflicted. I think that, ultimately, Angel's redemption, if it ever does come, will be him finally realizing that he's been trying to pay off someone else's debts.

In the meantime, yeah, Angel is the Hard Luck Hannah of the Buffyverse.
 
Samuel Reyes said:
Basically, whose life sucks the most?

My vote goes to Angel. Knowing that without a soul you're a vicious, psychopathic creature who will kill everyone you love if he gets out has got to suck beyond belief.
He spent a hundred years in a hell dimension for something that wasn't even really his fault.
Being used as a tool for the Senior Partners and not knowing which side you're going to be on when the Apocalypse arrives has got to hurt a little.
Wesley kidnapped his son, who in turn was kidnapped by his mortal enemy, and who in turn believed Angel to be his mortal enemy.
Losing Connor.
Losing Cordelia.
Losing Buffy.
No perfect happiness.
And this is before the whole Twilight thing in Season 8, though to be fair that was a pretty stupid decision on Angel's part.

Faith put it best when she said: "Does the guy gotta pay for everything?"
(Yes, yes he does.)
Click to expand...

Why wasn't that century in a hell dimension his fault? In fact, if Angel has no responsibility for what Angelus did then why the cloak and ashes? He has no reason to feel guilt or seek redemption - it was that other guy who killed Jenny and tortured Giles. Angel doesn't see things that way, and I don't either. I can agree with everything here - but I also see that he had over a century of play time with much torture and blood play. As Giles said, Angel tortured him for hours, for amusement. So he has had a lot of crap to deal with, but he also dished out far more crap to his victims.

My candidate would be Wesley. It looks like his torment started with birth - abusive parents, locked in a small dark place for hours at a time, by the time we meet him he's a bot. Fired by the council, not a soul in the world even knows, let alone cares, if he's alive. Becomes a 'rogue demon hunter' - fails again. Has a year or two with some comradery, and acceptance - then he is manipulated into taking Connor to try and save him. Wesley and Lilah - a hot, amoral relationship that ends up with Wes having to cut her into pieces. Rescues Angel from a watery grave, with no real acknowledgement. Goes to W&H, gets brain wiped (probably a mercy for him). Fred dies painfully in his arms, finds he can't let go of what remains - Illyria. Gets all his memories back - then dies a failure, unable to destroy his target.

Bleak. Really bleak.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
You set them up, I'll keep knocking them down.
bespangeled said:
Why wasn't that century in a hell dimension his fault? In fact, if Angel has no responsibility for what Angelus did then why the cloak and ashes? He has no reason to feel guilt or seek redemption - it was that other guy who killed Jenny and tortured Giles. Angel doesn't see things that way, and I don't either.
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It's as @white avenger said: Angel should stop beating himself up for what he did as Angelus. He had no soul, therefore he had no control. Wasn't his fault.
 
Samuel Reyes said:
It's as @white avenger said: Angel should stop beating himself up for what he did as Angelus. He had no soul, therefore he had no control. Wasn't his fault.
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ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

SPIKE
Then why even bother?
(scoffs)
Try to do the right thing, make a difference...

ANGEL
What else are we gonna do?

SPIKE
So that's it, then. I really am going to burn.

ANGEL
Welcome to the club.


I tend to agree with Angel more than I do @white avenger. The soul opens your eyes to what you did do, but it does not absolve you of blame. What has been done, what harm, what torture - it has already been done. I don't really see a get out of blame card.
 
bespangeled said:
I tend to agree with Angel more than I do @white avenger. The soul opens your eyes to what you did do, but it does not absolve you of blame. What has been done, what harm, what torture - it has already been done. I don't really see a get out of blame card.
Click to expand...

However, that would imply that one's eyes were previously closed. So you're basically saying that if you're blind to what you're doing, you should be blamed for it?
 
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