Who is the biggest woobie in the Buffyverse?

[thetopher]

They are creatures born to kill, it's their nature. The human soul left the body, it cannot be accountable for the crimes the vampire committed. Do vampires go to hell when they are dusted? And if they go, should their souls go to hell (not just Angel's and Spike's) too because of the murders of the demons that took their bodies?

The only indication of a vampire coming back as a 'spirit' after its been dusted was Darla in S4 'Inside Out'- to me she didn't seem to be in eternal torment or anything. So my guess is that the soul of a human is not held responsible for the acts of the demon (which seems fair to me) and passes on to something better.

So, religiously speaking, it would seem that the soul does not take on the sins of the demon (although maybe its unable to pass on?) even if said soul is bound to the demon with a curse/trial thing.

 

[The Bronze]

I think it's probably Buffy although most of the characters suffer. The main thing which makes me say Buffy is that she has been to a heavenly dimension. She has the answers most people search for, is there something after this life? Is there a heaven? Will I get in?

Unfortunately that has all been turned on it's head for her. There was a place for her in a heavenly dimension but odds are she won't be heading back there now. So how do you go about enjoying your life after that when it essentially resembles hell?

 

[white avenger]

Buffy is not a killer.

About a dozen Knights of Byzantium might argue to the contrary. Apparently, Buffy got over that "Slayers don't kill humans" thing somewhere between Seasons 3 & 5. Certainly, Buffy is not a MURDERER, that's Faith's gig, but, killer? If it becomes necessary, if it's unavoidable, yeah, Buffy most certainly is a killer.

 

[gite63]

So my guess is that the soul of a human is not held responsible for the acts of the demon (which seems fair to me) and passes on to something better.

So, religiously speaking, it would seem that the soul does not take on the sins of the demon (although maybe its unable to pass on?) even if said soul is bound to the demon with a curse/trial thing.

It's what I believe, too. And the souls don't pass on till the bodies are dusted. But the souls that have returned to the vampires bodies - Angel's and Spike's - may have now a moral obligation to do something about what the demons did. They will not be accountable in the end, but it helps if they do some good in this world...

About a dozen Knights of Byzantium might argue to the contrary.

OK, she is not a murderer, then. The Knights were a situation of killing or be killed, it was war.
 

No idea where vampire souls are stored - limbo. purgatory, a very large storage space with file cabinets?

Any of the above, since neither Spike nor Angel remember anything of the after life, like Buffy did...

 

[bespangeled]

Psychologically speaking a lot psychopaths absolutely know about right and wrong but are compelled by a variety of factors to kill anyway. In fact some of them eventually want to be caught by the authorities so they can be stipped/fixed or whatever, but they don't have the will to stop themselves- its a compunction.
Society stops them by either imprisoning them or executing them dependant on the level of culpability that they are judged to have about their actions. Some psychopaths are executed by the state (in whatever country thet reside- or prison if the death penalty is not available) whilst others are put in a mental institute and treated. Some are even cured.

I think you're talking about a sociopath. They have somewhat limited means of understanding human morality, and can make limited social ties. They tend toward the larger displays of power - though not always public. I don't think they want to be captured as much as they want to taunt the police and play chicken. Kids who shoot up their schools tend to be sociopaths. Hannibal Lector is a psychopath.

Society stops some - what proportion are sill out there is impossible to say. Since we are talking about vampires here, this part doesn't really apply.

Jail is not only punishment for past crimes but also a way to prevent future crimes from that same person. But if there was some way to be assured that the criminal has been 'reformed' and will never again repeat past sins then yes, they are absolved to an extent.

The vast majority of killers kill someone they love in a fit of rage. That alone precludes future crimes to some extent. I can understand early release, but do you really think they are somehow absolved? Have you ever actually known someone who was murdered? There is no absolution. There may be forgiveness on the part of family or friends but the victim remains murdered and there is no absolution.

It's what I believe, too. And the souls don't pass on till the bodies are dusted. But the souls that have returned to the vampires bodies - Angel's and Spike's - may have now a moral obligation to do something about what the demons did. They will not be accountable in the end, but it helps if they do some good in this world...

The rough part about the soul brought back from the ether is that it is responsible for anything that is done thereafter. Mass murder in the case of Angel - as well as killing to feed for over 2 years. The funny thing is that I see Spike willing to kill if he has to, but I don't recall him having to kill.

It's what I believe, too. And the souls don't pass on till the bodies are dusted. But the souls that have returned to the vampires bodies - Angel's and Spike's - may have now a moral obligation to do something about what the demons did. They will not be accountable in the end, but it helps if they do some good in this world...

Once they become part of the entire being, is there any need for redemption? Is Angel just helping people for sh*ts and giggles? Is there any meaning to what his choices are from the time he meets Buffy? Does it even matter that he cares about what he did without a soul?

 

[thetopher]

I think you're talking about a sociopath.

I disagree, the people you mentioned are psychopaths. Bundy knew right from wrong, he just chose to ignore the rules of society and killed girls that reminded him of his ex-girlfriend.

Edmund Kemper- a psychopath with a rage fixation on his mother and who killed women to supliment it- knew what he was doing was wrong and desperately wanted to be caught. He finally was when he actually got around to killing his Mom.
Albert Desalvo, Starkweather, Berkowitz (although Berkowitz tried to make out that he was more insane than he actually was) were all classified as psychopaths and all knew right from wrong because they interacted with society. And yet they were compelled to commit horrific crimes.

The vast majority of killers kill someone they love in a fit of rage. That alone precludes future crimes to some extent.

Well I wasn't just talking about murders but I take your point. I still think part of the punishment of prison is physical prevention of future crime. And I'm not sure if taking one life makes it more or less likely to take another. I think that once that line is crossed it gets a little blurry.

I can understand early release, but do you really think they are somehow absolved?

In the real world no, they are not absolved. Murder is a crime you can't 'take back'- something is taken that can not be returned.

Have you ever actually known someone who was murdered? There is no absolution. There may be forgiveness on the part of family or friends but the victim remains murdered and there is no absolution.

Well, I've lost friends/relatives in a terrorist attack in Belfast...and I can't say that I particularly want to forgive the persons responsible. But I have seen people on television who (seem to sincerly) forgive the person that has wronged them when they have taken someone precious.
I always found that sort of moral strength admirable because I don't possess it myself.

In Catholic doctrine absolution and forgiveness are linked. You commit a sin, are punished/do penace, and are therfore absolved of that sin. In the Buffyverse where heaven (ly dimension) are confirmed to exist then the possibility of 'being absolved' for your sins if you do enough good is surely a possiblity. Should it be expected? No. Should it be a carrot to dangle in fron of somebody as motivation? No. Like Angel tells Faith:

Angel: The truth is - no matter how much you suffer, no matter how many good deeds you do to try to make up for the past - you may never balance out the cosmic scale. - The only thing I can promise you is that you'll probably be haunted - and may be for the rest of your life."

That's what atoning for your sins should be- a driving force, a reminder, not a chore so you can then get a gold star. That's why I dislike Shanshu so much.

 

[bespangeled]

I disagree, the people you mentioned are psychopaths. Bundy knew right from wrong, he just chose to ignore the rules of society and killed girls that reminded him of his ex-girlfriend.

Excellent reply! My only quibble is that sociopaths are created(nurture) but psychopaths are born missing key components of their brains. While they may realize the difference between right or wrong they incapable of caring. The problem is hard wired. In fact, psychopaths are probably the closest to vampires that we know of.

For the rest - I agree completely on all of it -and am currently checking for a large nova in the east.😀

 

[Ember]

I thought everybody terribly over reacted when faith killed that bloke.

It was an accident, big deal.

Buffy sucked ass that day.

In the scheme of things, Faiths a Slayer, that should come with a certain level of privilege, obviously not for the act to be repeated again, but to accept it as a casualty of war.

At least the majority of faiths morals have been consistent, Buffy on the other hands is familiar with hypocrisy.