Who is the deepest character in the Buffyverse?

[Robb Stark]

Not just who's changed the most, but who has the greatest, or most complex, character depth.

My pick would probably be Spike. Right from the time we meet him all the way through until the end of Angel, he's always evolving as a character and showing different and unique characteristics. From the way he loves Drusilla and Buffy to his relationships with the Scoobies/Team Angel and Angel himself, there always seems to be a lot to Spike.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

I agree with you about Spike.

I think Willow could also deserve this title. She went to her own personnal hell by being addicted to magic and it showed us another side of her personnality we would never have seen otherwise. Magic changed her, but it also showed a side we didn't expect. The people who are always there for us are the ones we never expect to do something crazy. Willow had the potential to become addicted to something all along, and she set herself on magic. It was a process slow enough that it didn't have us see it until it was too late.

The calm nerdy student, the lovesick teenager, the devoted lover, the wicca practicing beginner, the magic addict, the white magic "goddess" are all parts of Willow that make her character very complex.

All main characters have potential to be named in this category imo. It just depends on how everyone sees their favorite character.

 

[white avenger]

Who would I be to disagree with two such bright, observant, analytical minds as Always Bangel and Vamp Jenny? Certainly Spike grew and evolved more between Season 4 and Season 7 than any other character, even with the entire 7 years to develop.

But there's a little voice whispering in my ear that there's another character, one who we actually knew for only a few short months, who, if only there had been more time, could have rivaled, if not surpassed even Spike in depth of character.

Unfortunately, that little voice is whispering in my bad ear, so I can't...quite...make...out...

What's that? Wisteria? Diphtheria? Algeria? Criteria? I'm sorry, I just can't make it out.

 

[Jod]

Hmm i agree spike is pretty damn deep. Also Giles and Buffy too.. when you think about it there are a few 'Deep' characters hey

 

[Jodast]

Though it saddens me, I have to agree with my four esteemed colleagues that Spike was the deepest character. It's not agreeing with four such wonderful people that saddnes me, it's giving credit in any way, shape or form to the Peroxide Pillock (I'm trademarking that, I like it 🙂 ).

I don't think that he was the character who 'changed' most as that was another thread recently and I didn't pick him for that, but I do think he was the most complex character. He never betrayed his true nature whilst going on a journey of forced then voluntary change and ultimately a quest for redemption. Through it all, though, he was the same surly, acerbic Billy Idol wannabe as he was the first time he crashed through the Sunnydale sign.

 

[patriot1123]

First, who it isn't: Buffy. I'm sorry, I know this is unpopular, but I don't like Buffy as a character. She's whiny, self-involved, and superficial. She rarely gives a thought to anyone but herself, unless it's for self-gratification reasons.

Spike is a good choice.

But for me it's Giles. (Who saw THAT coming?) Through the seven seasons, all of the full range of depth of personality are on display. Shy, bad-ass, loyal, loving, angry, doubtful, insecure, self-assured, intellectually curious, stubborn, reflective, self-knowing.

I'd marry him. If he were real, of course.

 

[ladydorotea]

Spike would be my last choice, here, honestly. Mostly because he is such a cliche - played out in so many stories in so may variations: Draco, Eric Northman, Loki, Damon Salvatore, etc. Every other erotic fantasy trope has a 'bad boy with a heart of gold' - or a heart of tin as it often turns out. My choice would be Willow - she is absolutely unique and brilliant in her depth.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

Spike would be my last choice, here, honestly. Mostly because he is such a cliche - played out in so many stories in so may variations: Draco, Eric Northman, Loki, Damon Salvatore, etc. Every other erotic fantasy trope has a 'bad boy with a heart of gold' - or a heart of tin as it often turns out. My choice would be Willow - she is absolutely unique and brilliant in her depth.

Spike has been attributed the bad boy image because he wanted to (well Joss wanted him to... anyways you get what I mean).

The bad boy with a heart of gold is a cliche, Spike isn't. Because he is so much more than just a bad boy hiding his love. Plus, he doesn't even hide his love. Have you seen him with Drusilla and Buffy? He would show the entire world how much he loves those women if he could. The usual BBWHG (Bad Boy With a Heart of Gold) isn't so open about it.

Draco loved Hermione, according to a lot of fans. Was it ever clearly stated?
Eric didn't show devotion to Sookie before S4, still a lot of people thought they were made for each other from the start.
Who does Loki love except himself and (when convenient) his brother?

Damon is the closest to Spike in this, and I think none of them can be qualified as BBWHG. He loved Katherine so much that it almost killed him to know she wasn't with the other vampires in the tomb. He did all this killing for 2 reasons. Love and revenge. Revenge on Stefan for turning him and love for Katherine (and hope he could get her out and live happily ever after). Damon isn't a bad boy, he's a dreamer. A man who loves passionately, without limits, and who always hopes he's going to be he on at least once.

Spike also loves passionately and he would die for the people he loves (remember in S6 when he told Buffy he saved her every night? I'm pretty sure he died in at least half of those dreams). He has the look of a bad boy and he acts like it, but he isn't just that. He's gotten that stereotype because people gave it to him. Because it's always easier to stereotype people when you don't want to go into details about them.

And remember Draco, Eric and Loki I stated earlier to be BBWHG? Well I know they have more than just this layer to them. Well most of them anyways, because I can't figure out what's the next layer to Loki..... (😉)

[MENTION=11161]patriot1123[/MENTION]

You're right, your opinion might be unpopular. And I think your vision of Buffy is very different from what is pictured in the show. Maybe it is because I grew up watching her, but Buffy is (almost) all the woman I'd want to be.

Whiny? Well of course she is. We all are at times. Some of us just let it show more than others. And don't forget she was a teenager for most of the duration of the show. Any teenager would whine about having to save the world every other day.

Self-involved? See, I have a problem with that. For Buffy saved the world time and time again, grew up faster and took the mother's role for her little sister, invited all of the remaining potentials she could find to live under her roof while crazy Bringers tried to kill them. She's allowed to fall in love, think about herself and make mistakes once in a while.

Superficial? Layers, layers, layers. Buffy looks like a superficial girl and, when she wants to blend in, can act like one really good. But I can't figure out momentswhen she was really superficial during the show (excluding the flashbacks from her previous school in L.A.)

Okay, okay, I'm done 😛

 

[ladydorotea]

Spike has been attributed the bad boy image because he wanted to (well Joss wanted him to... anyways you get what I mean).

Joss Whedon created the character, I say Joss is *probably* the best judge of what the character is about. And in Spike's case the image projected plus the expressed opinion of the creator seals it for me. The rest of it for me as an audience in none essential, as it is mostly product of fanon - to which I do not subscribe. Btw, Draco Malfoy , Eric Northman and Damon Salvatore are ususally described by their respective fandoms in almost exactly the same mode of exalted adulation - with 'layers upon layers of meaning' - usually generated by creativity of fandom imagination - but in the end it is all built on a combination of good looks, sexy bad-boy snark and a lot of superficial mystique that has little to do with real character depth. and that's the end of it. I would end my contribution to this discussion with a note that a character that is a simple collection of sexy trivialities, which can be replicated with so little effort in so many settings by definition cannot be deep.

Spike - or Loki as we now call him , is no onion for me.

 

[Kean]

For me it is Oz, Angel or Giles.

 

[Anca]

Spike has been attributed the bad boy image because he wanted to (well Joss wanted him to... anyways you get what I mean).

And the role fits him very well I think. It's just that he went from bad boy villain to bad boy hero.

The Bad Boy archetype can be a villain or a hero depending on the character's role in the story. Using the Misbehaving Male as the Hero or the Villain

Qualities of the Bad Boy Archetype
The bad boy archetype has the same qualities, whether he is the hero or the villain. Those qualities, depending on how the writer uses them, can endear him to the reader, or make the reader hate him. Either way, the goal of the author is to evoke an emotional reaction from the reader.

The bad boy archetype is intuitive, seeming to be able to read other's minds and motives. He's innovative, thinking creatively for solutions to problems. He's also street savvy and charming. On the darker side, he's hardened from past bad experiences, he may be bitter or angry, and he is usually a loner.

Bad Boy as Hero
What is it about a bad boy character that makes readers identify with him? Perhaps it's the recklessness, the fearlessness in the face of danger, or the eschewing of accepted standards of behavior. Whatever the reason, readers love the bad boy hero.

The bad boy hero will strut into a room with a commanding presence. Think of James Dean, the ultimate bad boy. With his sexy swagger and disdain for normal conventions, he and his motorcycle became the poster hung in millions of teenaged girls' bedrooms.

The bad boy hero can be very charismatic, charming those around him into doing what he wants. He also is smart and brave. As a hero, these qualities are used to protect others. When a character is caught in a dark alley with a monster, the bad boy hero is the one who can kill the monster.

The bad boy archetype is usually a rebel, but that rebelliousness may conceal insecurities or a desire for love. He may rebel against things he sees as unjust, making him a true hero to what is right and good.

Bad Boy as Villain
The bad boy makes the perfect villain. With his attitude that anything goes, he's unpredictable. He stirs the story plot by doing things that will wreak havoc for the other, more law-abiding characters. Hannibal Lecter would be a perfect example of a bad boy villain.

The bad boy villain will lure unsuspecting characters into danger, and laugh at their discomfort. The writer can use psychological profiling of the villain to show why he acts this way, adding depth and complexity to the story plot.

As a villain, the bad boy archetype is blamed for everything that goes wrong. This may be true, or a writer may use this fact to guide the reader away from suspecting another character of misdeeds.

The bad boy character is always a strong role in a story, often a leader. He is such a versatile character, he can be used in almost any way the writer chooses. However he is used, if he is characterized well, reader will have an immediate love/hate reaction to him. The bad boy will linger in the reader's memory long after the last page has been read and the book has been closed.​

 

[dexeded]

Spike would be my last choice, here, honestly. Mostly because he is such a cliche - played out in so many stories in so may variations: Draco, Eric Northman, Loki, Damon Salvatore, etc. Every other erotic fantasy trope has a 'bad boy with a heart of gold' - or a heart of tin as it often turns out. My choice would be Willow - she is absolutely unique and brilliant in her depth.

I don't know about Eric or Damon (don't watch the shows...), but Draco and Loki are very far removed from Spike. I'm actually quite baffled with fan reaction to the spineless Draco; most qualities attributed to him are of fandom only. Loki is hardly a bad boy with a heart of gold. He was evil even before he discovered he was the son of Laufrey. He doesn't show regret in the movies. From what I hear of Damon, he's much more 'good' than Spike, because... I dunno, I really have no idea about TVD, but presumably vampires work differently there? Well, fine, I don't know about Damon.

Spike may be a bad boy, but he certainly doesn't have a heart of gold. In a way, his only redeeming quality (if it can be called that) is his capacity for love. He is still utterly selfish. I suppose I would say he's much darker (?), seeing as he isn't good at all till he gets his soul. Also, attempted rape? Not exactly endearing. The writers may have softened Spike with the chip, but they never lost sight of his vampiric amoral nature. Also, you can't really call Spike a bad boy in later seasons, seeing as he's, well, quite pathetic compared to his S2 incarnation. He may have a template and/or the main traits of a bad boy with a heart of gold, but he was developed and rounded out to be a much deeper character than a simple cliche.

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION]

See, I am also not a fan of VD - watched an episode or two and decided I don't like the writing, so I am not really a big fan or not of Damon. Draco/Loki though , IMHO, are stellar examples of what the fandom/fanon can do to a pretty looking bad boy type with high cheekbones - short of breaking the writer's final resolve in making *them* the protagonist. I happened to have a friend who was so much into Draco - that he was virtually the only character she could speak on for hours when you accidentally mention the HP fandom related issue. Oh the constructions she had in her head - explaining his virtues, depth, multilayer-ness, etc etc - the only other case of such deep and almost religious devotion I ever saw is/was , yes, with the Spike fandom. And the yet budding but already amazing it is size/speed of growth Loki fandom denies imagination. I can only conclude that eventually the sheer numbers of devotees might force Marvel to 'reinvent' the character.

As for Spike-boy, I cannot seriously see how the 'ability to love' in a soulless demon is possible - without breaking every bone of canon. And because of it I see it more of the fanon gimmick - that was thrown in to give depth where there is not much. I can admit to the S6 *story* depth - when it crosses into the Clockwork Orange territory and gives that plot a good run for its money - but Spike as a character remains a shallow fellow who is so tuned into his obsessions with sensuality and need to be 'loved' that it sort of blocks everything else from his personal screen. There is not much else about him, seriously, but his ability to stick on to his current object of obsession like a wet sheet of paper, and remain stuck until shaken off. You call his fool-for-love dogginess 'ability to love' - I call it exaggerated neediness and insecurity blown to cosmic proportions, coupled with sex addiction. And in a story (that is not a paperback romance novel ) this is usually not the kind of things one can admire in a character - or even remotely call 'depth'. To conclude - you can call Spike 'most evolved', most devoted to his addictions, most blond or most effulgent - but depth implies , you know, *layers* and complexities that he lacks sorely.