Who or what was the First?

[willowfan]

Is it a form of all people who died or something? I've always asked myself that question ever since I saw Season 7. And how could an image of Buffy be the First? Sorry, I'm just a little confused right now. Please help me figure this out.

Thanx,

willowfan

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The first can take the form of anyone who has died, Buffy has died twice; Once in Prophecy Girl and Once in The Gift.

 

[Schillaci]

The First was a lameass version of Lord Satan.

 

[arabella]

But what really was the first spark of evil then? And why is original sin what supposedly went down in the garden and not what happened with lucifer. Is sin human? If so evil most certainly is older than that. So they are not the same then. What is evil? That is key to understanding what the first is.

 

[Schillaci]

But what really was the first spark of evil then? And why is original sin what supposedly went down in the garden and not what happened with lucifer. Is sin human? If so evil most certainly is older than that. So they are not the same then. What is evil? That is key to understanding what the first is.

Please don't fag up this thread with silly religious superstitions. Lucifer, the bringer of light, was erroneously accused of corrupting a couple of plant peddlars in some garden. The Lord has bigger fish to fry.

 

[postmortem]

But what really was the first spark of evil then? And why is original sin what supposedly went down in the garden and not what happened with lucifer. Is sin human? If so evil most certainly is older than that. So they are not the same then. What is evil? That is key to understanding what the first is.

The world and human are "evil". For every big bad in Buffyverse, human is responsible for every evil because he is (or she is) weak.

 

[nerd4hire]

Here's a couple of quotes that might give some perspective on where the Buffyverse dates the First Evil's origins.

Giles from Bring on the Night.

GILES
(sits on arm of couch) The First is unlike anything we've faced before. I mean, there's evil and then there's the thing that created evil, the source.

BUFFY
And that's what this thing claims to be?

GILES
That's what it is. It has eternities to act, endless resources.

Jasmine from Shiny Happy People.

Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters"”the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.

 

[Schillaci]

Satan, he lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting and though unwanted, unbidden, he will stir open his jaws and howl. He speaks to us, guides us. Satan rules us all and we obey. What other choice do we have? Satan is the source of our finest moments, the joy of love, the clarity of hatred, the ecstasy of grief. He hurts us sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without Satan maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow.. empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without Satan we'd be truly dead.

 

[arabella]

Satan and passion not the same. Sorry fiver. And if you prefer not to address my comment, simply ignore it, ur a big boy, you can do it. And Fiver, it'll be okay, right?

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm going to pretend he's serious and ask this question - even if you assume the writers wanted us to draw parallels between the First Evil and Satan, how would that help us answer the question of the thread?

 

[Xin Rong]

Ohhh I feel a big debate coming... on a fairly original subject to.

I agree that the first evil has similarities with Lucifer but I dont think that we were ment to see this connection, but it could be used to help explain what the first is. To me its an opposite, there was good but it had to be chalenged with evil, therefore a source had to me created something evil that was eternal, just as there is probably some good being that is also eternal.

Then again I also had the idea that good and evil, inc. the first were created by an all powerful being, similar to God, with the soul purpose of competing with one another until one of them is the victor, for reasons of education. This may seem a bit odd but its inspired by a book i read by ramond e fesit where the universe is described as a learning child who creates things and stuff in order to learn from the consequences, a sort of experimentation

 

[Schillaci]

Satan and passion not the same. Sorry fiver. And if you prefer not to address my comment, simply ignore it, ur a big boy, you can do it. And Fiver, it'll be okay, right?

I was kidding, you can fag up whatever thread you want. You believe in God, whatever. You believe some phoney idiotic religion, then I gave you far too much credit. More credit than you deserve. Whatever religious denomination you are doesn't matter much. It WILL be built around and based upon false premise.

Your religion is designed to control you, and exhort money from your ass. It's not from GOD, its from men. Or maybe the devil! He is the master of deception..........:bandit:

I'm going to pretend he's serious and ask this question - even if you assume the writers wanted us to draw parallels between the First Evil and Satan, how would that help us answer the question of the thread?

It wouldn't, I was just screwing around.
The only parallels that I personally draw are that they are both fantasy characters, beyond that I don't care much.

There is NO answer in the Buffyverse as to who the First really is, or how it came about. I have no desire to create a history(out of little or no information) for it.

 

[arabella]

to get money from me, i would actually have to give it....so no. and i am probably more a global mystic than any particular denomination of any particular religion. I like ideas more than beliefs...flexibility and all. I do however believe in God. Just not necesarrily how she has been painted by history.

and like you I have no desire to create a fictional history. thinking about the root of evil and where it stems from is however an interesting topic, and at least tangentially related. It is completely philosophical in nature though, which is why it is interesting

"Evil is knowing better, but doing worse." Irving Sarnoff (I suppose that could have cross over implications to the Seeing Red attempted rape thread now couldn't it?)

 

[Xin Rong]

I was kidding, you can fag up whatever thread you want. You believe in God, whatever. You believe some phoney idiotic religion, then I gave you far too much credit. More credit than you deserve. Whatever religious denomination you are doesn't matter much. It WILL be built around and based upon false premise.

Your religion is designed to control you, and exhort money from your ass. It's not from GOD, its from men. Or maybe the devil! He is the master of deception..........:bandit:


It wouldn't, I was just screwing around.
The only parallels that I personally draw are that they are both fantasy characters, beyond that I don't care much.

There is NO answer in the Buffyverse as to who the First really is, or how it came about. I have no desire to create a history(out of little or no information) for it.

Someones been reading a bit of Marx lol However I have to point that although I do respect your right to freely boast your thoughts and feelings, I am sensing a bit of needless meanness and also a lack of tolerance, which I don't respect. Maybe you should learn to respect other peoples beliefs and others may learn to respect yours. And before you take a jibe at me I do actually agree with you and I don't really believe in God, at least not the Christian or any other religions version but it doesn't mean i have to be rude to those who do

to get money from me, i would actually have to give it....so no. and i am probably more a global mystic than any particular denomination of any particular religion. I like ideas more than beliefs...flexibility and all. I do however believe in God. Just not necesarrily how she has been painted by history.

and like you I have no desire to create a fictional history. thinking about the root of evil and where it stems from is however an interesting topic, and at least tangentially related. It is completely philosophical in nature though, which is why it is interesting

"Evil is knowing better, but doing worse." Irving Sarnoff (I suppose that could have cross over implications to the Seeing Red attempted rape thread now couldn't it?)

A postmodernist now, we're got people from all sociological perspectives here nowadays lol

 

[chevysno1]

If you all remember in season 7 where caleb tells the girl in his truck that satan is the "little man".So in the buffy universe the "first" must be even more powerful,more evil,etc... than satan himself.

 

[Schillaci]

Not really.

As Anya commented at some point in season 7. Evil beings often brag about being the biggest, baddest evil ever. It's commonplace amongst those scallywags. Also, the First may have been the original evil, that doesn't mean it's the most powerful evil. It just means it was the first to pinch some extra cookies from the jar.. Or like a domino effect, it did something evil, and evil grew from there, and became more potent.

 

[white avenger]

Here's a probably lame answer as to the First Evil's true identity. I've been wrangling with it for the basis of a story, but so far it hasn't panned out. Forget anything you might have preconcieved about the First, and just read. The First Evil refers, not to the ORIGONAL evil, but to the GREATEST evil. Im Norse mythology, the god of myschief and evil was Loki. After commiting a crime so terrible that even his fellow gods were outraged, Loki was imprisoned in a chamber below the earth, guarded by an army of trolls, there to remain until the coming of the Ragnarok, or apocalypse, at which time he and his army would be released upon the face of the earth to wreak death and destruction, setting into motion the events that would lead to the end of all creation. All of that comes, with very little editing, from actual Norse mythology, and I just thought that it fit really well onto the Season Seven canon. Whatcha think?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Here's a probably lame answer as to the First Evil's true identity. I've been wrangling with it for the basis of a story, but so far it hasn't panned out. Forget anything you might have preconcieved about the First, and just read. The First Evil refers, not to the ORIGONAL evil, but to the GREATEST evil. Im Norse mythology, the god of myschief and evil was Loki. After commiting a crime so terrible that even his fellow gods were outraged, Loki was imprisoned in a chamber below the earth, guarded by an army of trolls, there to remain until the coming of the Ragnarok, or apocalypse, at which time he and his army would be released upon the face of the earth to wreak death and destruction, setting into motion the events that would lead to the end of all creation. All of that comes, with very little editing, from actual Norse mythology, and I just thought that it fit really well onto the Season Seven canon. Whatcha think?

Goitta say not feeling what you are suggesting.
I can see and understand the connection, but the First Evil to me was exactly what is says on the Tin. The First Evil.
Did the First come about because Evil was born or was Evil born because the First came about I do not know, but what my belief is that When Evil first came about, it was just there and over time with more and more life developing Evil has spread. Does this First Evil spread itself or does the birth of new life contain the ability of Evil thus allowing the First in? Again I do not know.
As long as there is life, there will always be the First Evil tat is why it cannot be defeated, that is why it can take millenia to make a single move.
Thats my opinion anyway.

 

[Shadow Weaver]

The First is the essence of pure evil - a physical manifestation of all that opposes good. Sort of like Satan but more so because it is the literal root of all evil, the seed from which all subsequent malign forces germinated. In theory, the idea should work well in a Buffy series. In practice...well, let's be honest about it. The First was not as awe-inspiring an enemy as it was purported to be. Fortunately, the great dialogue and acting by SMG and the likes built up a basically second-rate villain (it didn't even have true physical form) into a powerful threat. The "idea" of the First worked much better than the First itself. Oh, and the uber-vamps were undoubtedly deadly henchmen too.

 

[Your Creamy Coolness]

IMO. The First and Caleb are very similiar to the Antichrist and the False Prophet in Revelations in The B I B L E. The Antichrist has the power, and the False Prophet is the vessel. Now who ever was spazzing out about relgion please don't jump down my neck. I was raised Christian, but don't practice it. I am with the other poster however, I do beleive in God.

I also beleive that Glory's story is very similiar to Lucifier being cast out of heaven. I know Joss is an atheist, but I can help but wonder if these two stories were some how biblically influnced. He knows about a lot of mythologies, so I am sure it could have had some influence.

Thanks for listening.