Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[Skanky Vamp]

But we're also told that Spike could be the one, we've seen it!

But some people dont like watching a show with certain rules and understandings for multiple years and in the span of one episode the rug being pulled from under your feet, a new character introduced and oh yeah, everything you thought you knew about no longer matters. Everything the character went thru, no longer matters. It was all pointless.

 

[The Unspoken]

The point is, you said it (the shanshu) happened in the verse and not in the show.. there could be TONS of events that happened in the verse and not the show... maybe the prophesy was talking about a vampire with a soul from centuries ago long before Angel and Spike.. maybe the apocalypse already happened and no one updated the ancient text. You go by what you are shown on the screen and what you are told.. and for years you are told the shanshu is talking about Angel.

It's a fact that Angel was the first souled vampire - and Spike the second. If you don't believe Giles' research, then the interest Wolfram & Hart showed should be more than enough proof.

The Shanshu never mentioned Angel - it mentioned a souled vampire. It could be Angel, it could be Spike or it could be some dude a hundred years from now who's crazy enough to mess with another hot gypsy girl. Prophecies are misinterpreted and reinterpreted all the time.

Scobro agrees: How do you know its a fact? How do you know there wasnt one that no one knew of? I cant believe Angel was the first vampire with a soul. There had to be more. How do you know he was the first?

If there was another, Wolfram & Hart would've also pursued that one. And some seer would've probably located him or her. Think about it: why would there be a prophecy identifying someone as a 'souled vampire' if there were tons of them?

 

[BuffangelLovE]

An apocalypse, THE apocalypse, doesn't start yesterday and is fully going on today to be thwarted tomorrow. I think there is still a much bigger thing in the future (the kind of an apocalypse I believe shanshu is all about) which has its origins many years ago and everything that's happened since then, was only progress where Buffy, Faith, Angel, the Scoobies etc. have participated in without realizing it yet.

After all that Angel has already done, the good and the evil in the name of the good, wouldn't it be great if all this has served of a higher purpose and would get a real good sense in the end? (It would be a real shame, if it just wouldn't!) I think that the whole Angel storyline is heading exactly this direction. Angels path is still unclear, so is how long it will take until he has reached his goal, but I am firmly convinced that it will end with the fulfillment of Shanshu for him, because he will have earned it. Otherwise, I would be really disappointed with Joss. Because then everything about Angels character would be completely pointless.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

But some people dont like watching a show with certain rules and understandings for multiple years and in the span of one episode the rug being pulled from under your feet, a new character introduced and oh yeah, everything you thought you knew about no longer matters. Everything the character went thru, no longer matters. It was all pointless.

There's no such rule that says that. It's a twist in the plot, which is very valid. Like Dawn. She wasn't there, Buffy was an only child, then they brought her in with a story of her own and new memories of everybody. Some would like it some wouldn't. But it's not something that is wrong to do in television. Things can change in a minute on television, because that's the plot the writers went for. And with Spike it's not just it suddenly happened. He went on a journey to get to where he is, he did what he's done on Buffy, and the plot just continues on Angel. It's not like Spike dies when Buffy kills him in season 7 after staying evil and killing people, then brought him back on Angel and he's suddenly deserves the prophecy. They worked on that plot for a few seasons, starting when Spike gets his chip, he can't kill humans, then falls for Buffy and does good things even if he doesn't have a soul, then gains his soul, then saves the world. And in the end he's on Angel and in the very similar position as him.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------

Scobro agrees: A plot twist is valid, but when it happens to change the entire basis of the show it is wrong. Its cheap and BS. The ending of St. Elsewhere is another prime example.

And I thought the show was about Angel helping the helpless to help the helpless and not to become human for doing that. I think this would be pointess.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Think about it: why would there be a prophecy identifying someone as a 'souled vampire' if there were tons of them?

Think about it: thousands of years ago there was one vampire with a soul, a prophesy was written about him or her.. he or she died.. then along comes the wolf, ram and hart and another vampire with a soul and viola!

It was always inferred it was Angel. Period. Did you ever think before Spike got his soul it could be anyone OTHER than Angel?

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

And I thought the show was about Angel helping the helpless to help the helpless and not to become human for doing that.

From the very FIRST episode it was established it was not about helping the helpless.. it was about helping certain people that the PTB saw fit.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Think about it: thousands of years ago there was one vampire with a soul, a prophesy was written about him or her.. he or she died.. then along comes the wolf, ram and hart and another vampire with a soul and viola!

It was always inferred it was Angel. Period. Did you ever think before Spike got his soul it could be anyone OTHER than Angel?

As long as Angel's name isn't metioned, it could be any vampire. The fact that Angel had a soul when Spike didn't, doesn't mean it can't be Spike. And the fact that we never would have thought Spike would get his soul and become human, doesn't mean he couldn't. Before Angel read about the propehcy, I never would have thought he could get that prophecy! The fact that we didn't know something before doesn't mean it can't happen in the future.

---------- Post added at 10:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Think about it: thousands of years ago there was one vampire with a soul, a prophesy was written about him or her.. he or she died.. then along comes the wolf, ram and hart and another vampire with a soul and viola!

It was always inferred it was Angel. Period. Did you ever think before Spike got his soul it could be anyone OTHER than Angel?

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------


From the very FIRST episode it was established it was not about helping the helpless.. it was about helping certain people that the PTB saw fit.

But that wasn't the reason Angel came to LA. He never even knew about the PTB. Only when he met Doyle. And the prophecy thing was metioned not from the first episode. Also, let's not forget that Angel made money from helping people.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

As long as Angel's name isn't metioned, it could be any vampire.

No, and thats my point.. because there was only ONE vampire with a soul... and that was Angel

But that wasn't the reason Angel came to LA.

No, that wasnt. The only reason he went to LA was to get away from Buffy.

 

[VisionGirl]

William as a vampire wasn't evil at first.

Huh? I disagree with a lot of your post CE, but this one made me scratch my head. The very definition of vampire is evil.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

No, and thats my point.. because there was only ONE vampire with a soul... and that was Angel



No, that wasnt. The only reason he went to LA was to get away from Buffy.

BY THEN! The prophecy didn't come true yet. Then came Spike with his soul. And still the name wasn't metioned, and still contest is open.

And at first Angel wanted to stay away from Buffy. But what, did he come there to sit in this apartment and brood? No, he found a job at helping the helpless, later on in exchange for money, he opened a business. It was a job for him to help the helpless. And he said that that's what he does. That was his goal, that was his motto.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

Huh? I disagree with a lot of your post CE, but this one made me scratch my head. The very definition of vampire is evil.

He wasn't completely. As opposed to other vampires, he cared, he loved. He was the humaniest vampire ever. William, once sired, wasn't evil. Angelus made him that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No, and thats my point.. because there was only ONE vampire with a soul... and that was Angel

BY THEN!

So you agree then? that there was only one vampire with a soul and for four years when they said on the series "vampire with a soul" it was meant to be Angel. Even when they thought he was a eunuch it was implied it was Angel! To say you went four years thinking the vampire with a soul could be anyone is not true.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

No, and thats my point.. because there was only ONE vampire with a soul... and that was Angel

So you agree then? that there was only one vampire with a soul and for four years when they said on the series "vampire with a soul" it was meant to be Angel. Even when they thought he was a eunuch it was implied it was Angel! To say you went four years thinking the vampire with a soul could be anyone is not true.

No, I don't. Of course when there wasn't other vampires with souls in the world when we heard about the prophecy we all thought about Angel. But when Spike gets his soul, it made a lot of us wonder "could it be him"? Then we saw him does exactly what the prophecy said the chosen one will do. And of course then it could be Spike! The fact Angel was the only one there, didn't mean there wouldn't be another vampire like this. And it happened! Spike got his soul and became another vampire in the world, Angel wasn't the only one anymore! And since it doesn't mention the name, yes, Spike is a possibility! A big one!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

No, I don't. Of course when there wasn't other vampires with souls in the world when we heard about the prophecy we all thought about Angel.

THANK YOU!! Finally.. that is all I was looking for. So we agree.. for most of the series it was thought it was Angel. That was my only point. I just wanted to make sure you thought that too.

 

[Flannen]

I could probably continue, but I'll free you from that. I know there are things you might disagree with, but these are my reasons and how I see it. Just so you see that there are reasons, and it's not just out of my love for Spike.

And I still think that the argument about it being Angel's show is not a reason for him to be deserving. It's not deserving, it's just the world outside the show - it's outside the show, not in the show, so I really can't count that as a deserving reason.

Okay, so my reasons were repeatedly discounted by you as not making any sense, which is fair enough. But I was expecting yours to be actual reasons, as in factual reasons as to why Spike deserved it more. But they really do just come out of your love for Spike...

Saying things like 'Spike REALLY, REALLY wanted it so much more than Angel' is not a reason at all, it's your opinion of Spike and love for him that makes you just decide he wants it more. Maybe you have him beating Angel as a valid reason but you bring it up so many more times with no evidence whatsoever. And Angelus made him a monster and he wasn't an evil vampire before? Seriously?! Why is EVERYTHING Spike does excused? Does it make him more admirable to have been easily led all his life? And at which point does Spike actually start making his own decisions? Making Spike some pitiable charity case who had it SO tough is not really making him sound like the Champion who deserves Shanshu...

A heck of a lot of your reasons are just born out of liking Spike more than you do Angel. Which is fine and all but given how much you berated me for all of mine being out of love for Angel, I'm a little surprised. I don't really see how any of the reasons you've listed above are born out of anything more solid than my reasons 'outside' the show.

 

[VisionGirl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionGirl
Huh? I disagree with a lot of your post CE, but this one made me scratch my head. The very definition of vampire is evil.

Chosen Enemy: He wasn't completely. As opposed to other vampires, he cared, he loved. He was the humaniest vampire ever. William, once sired, wasn't evil. Angelus made him that.

I completely disagree. Even though Spike retained more human qualities than other vampires, he was still evil. He & Dru were killing even before he met Angelus. We have no way of knowing exactly what he would've done or become if he hadn't had Angelus' influence, but looking at the other vampires in the 'verse, I'd say it wouldn't have been hugs and puppies.

 

[WakingNightmare]

Reading through this thread I feel like I should say that I really hope that the Shanshu was not written for Spike. If it was, then that would imply that Spike setting out to become a better man for the woman he loves was predestined. One of reasons I love Spike going to get his soul back, other than him trying to redeem himself, is that you know it’s not supposed to happen. He’s not supposed to love the Slayer and he’s not supposed to want a soul but he does. He’s screwing with all vampire mythology by wanting one. If it turns out all was destined to happen it would diminish his journey, somehow.

Just give the damn Shanshu to Angel.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

THANK YOU!! Finally.. that is all I was looking for. So we agree.. for most of the series it was thought it was Angel. That was my only point. I just wanted to make sure you thought that too.

It doesn't matter what was then. It matters what is now. And the fact is that now Spike can be the one. It really doesn't matter what we THOUGHT back then because we didn't have an idea that Spike will be in that place too. And that's MY point. Can't you agree that NOW Spike is an option? Because it is a fact, it's not what we think. So we thought it was Angel. So what? Does it mean it couldn't change? Because it did, big time!

---------- Post added at 10:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 AM ----------

I completely disagree. Even though Spike retained more human qualities than other vampires, he was still evil. He & Dru were killing even before he met Angelus. We have no way of knowing exactly what he would've done or become if he hadn't had Angelus' influence, but looking at the other vampires in the 'verse, I'd say it wouldn't have been hugs and puppies.

He was as close as a vampire could be as human. He had a good heart, and we saw that with his mum, when he wanted to be with her. That's evil? Angel affected him, Spike always had to prove himself to him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It doesn't matter what was then.

It doesnt matter to you! It matters a great deal to me. Just as it matters a great deal to me when the whole theme of Angel changed upon going to Pylea. So to say it doesnt matter, be sure to say to WHOM it doesnt matter.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Saying he was a nice Vampire before he met Angelus is ridiculous.

For one thing it wasn't meeting Angeusl that made him a killer, it was Angelus telling him about the Slayer that turned him obsessive about the Slayer.

Spike used to torture victims with Railroad spikes, a completely different killing style to Angelus, Angelus was about the physological, Spike was a messy killer. Spike didn't learn to be vicious through Angel, he was vicious all by himself!

 

[Chosen Enemy]

It doesnt matter to you! It matters a great deal to me. Just as it matters a great deal to me when the whole theme of Angel changed upon going to Pylea. So to say it doesnt matter, be sure to say to WHOM it doesnt matter.

The fact is, that things CHANGEd since then. And the fact that we thought something then, doesn't mean it's true now. Because things did change, it's not a matter of opinion here, and that's what I'm saying. You thought something, great. But you've proven wrong, because things are different now. When I say it doesn't matter, I don't mean in the personal sense, but in the script sense. The script shows you otherwise, and we all need to follow the new "world", because it's a solid fact now, not thoughts.

 

[Flannen]

He was as close as a vampire could be as human. He had a good heart, and we saw that with his mum, when he wanted to be with her. That's evil? Angel affected him, Spike always had to prove himself to him.

And how exactly is it Angel/us' fault that Spike always had to prove himself to him? Spike chose to want to try and be as big and bad as Angelus, end of story. This is my hugest issue with Spike, every single thing he does is excused. He was a vampire. A vicious murderer and he positively revelled in that. And before anyone says it, yes I know Angel/us did too, completely aware of that but I'm so tired of seeing Spike portrayed as someone who was helplessly pushed along the path he end up on but Angel is just some beast who corrupted poor innocent William.