Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?

[Chosen Enemy]

Some say (Bangels mostly) that Angel deserves to get the Shanshu. Some say (Spuffies mostly) that Spike deserves it. And I'm more than sure you all have reasons why you think that, aside from the fact that you ship them or they're your favorite characters.

So I would really like to know, what makes you think one deserves it more than the other, list your reasons.

 

[StarSlayer]

Yikes, this one's a toughie. I honestly believe both of them deserve it. I really can't pick one over the other. I think Spike may want it more, as shown through "Destiny," but I don't think that makes Angel deserve it less. Can't they share it, lol? 🙂

 

[Flannen]

The fact I am considered a Bangel has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I think Angel deserves it. The fact I completely despise Spike would be a better assessment 😛 but really that doesn't hold so much over it.

I'm not into arguing who deserves it more, that has nowt to do with it. The fact is, four seasons of Angel told us that the prophecy was his. To now take that away from him because Joss decided to recycle a storyline is absolute sacrilege. And that alone is the reason why I would end my relationship with BtVS instantly if it turned out anyway; Spike winning it or any other vampire for that matter. How could you support having a show poop all of its own history?

Them sharing it isn't the 'only' way it'd be 'fair'. Joss spent a lot of time effot and money showing it's 'only fair' for Angel to be awarded to be it and I will be completely done if he isn't.

 

[white avenger]

The fact is, four seasons of Angel told us that the prophecy was his. it's 'only fair' for Angel to be awarded to be it and I will be completely done if he isn't.

Technically, the prophecy only said that the "vampire with a soul" would receive the Shanshu. Angle only assumed that, since he was the only one who qualified, it was his by default. Spike has just as much right to be the recipient as Angel. Having said that, however, I have no doubt that, if there ever actually is an award to be had, Angel will be the one to get it. Also, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if it were ever offered to Spike, he would refuse it. He's having too much fun being a superhero. Besides which, immortality is a heck of a thing to give up just to be able to get a decent sun tan.

 

[Flannen]

Technically, the prophecy only said that the "vampire with a soul" would receive the Shanshu. Angle only assumed that, since he was the only one who qualified, it was his by default. Spike has just as much right to be the recipient as Angel. Having said that, however, I have no doubt that, if there ever actually is an award to be had, Angel will be the one to get it. Also, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if it were ever offered to Spike, he would refuse it. He's having too much fun being a superhero. Besides which, immortality is a heck of a thing to give up just to be able to get a decent sun tan.

Maybe to you he does, but to me he sure as heck doesn't. And it's not just a case of 'Angel just assumed it was his, silly old Angel' is it? It's go much, much further than that. What will be the point in AtS at all if the Shanshu isn't meant for Angel? None. At all. You may be happy for the whole series to be ripped of all credibility but I'm not.

 

[The Unspoken]

If Spike isn't even a candidate for the Shanshu prophecy in the first place, it means he's so awesome that he thwarted prophecy and fate itself in his quest to regain his soul.

Yeah, I can live with that.

 

[brinkster130]

I think Angel does. That has nothing to do with my love for Bangel or Angel. I like Spike, he is one of my favorite characters and always will be. As I watched BTVS & Angel I thought it was meant for Angel throughout the series. For years we watched Angel struggle with redemption, forgivness and try to make amends for all that he has done and I would be very displeased if now after we all that the Shanshu was awarded to someone else. I agree with what Flannen said, I think it would trash the show's history to award it to anyone other than Angel.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Personally, I think none of the vamps really wants it. Angel had a chance once where he gave that back not only because he wanted Buffy safe, but also because he couldn't handle being human. And also, he had a chance to almost live like a human with the ring of Amarah. But he smashed it so he could come back to save people from the evil things that lurk to innocents in the dark. He wants to stay a vampire with super powers so he could fight evil. He knows that once he's human, it's gonna be a problem. And, when Spike beat him to the cup, Angel admitted that Spike wanted it more. Spike wanted it so bad, that in the first time in history he beat Angel.

However, Spike also had selfish reasons. I guess he wants to become human for two main reasons: Being with Buffy (valid), and to spite Angel. He wanted to be the best one this time.

I really don't think that the fact that we were led to believe Angel was the one during all of these years is a good enough reason for deserving it. Joss didn't know, when AtS started and he settles the prophechy thing, that he was going to make Spike a hero who will have a big part in the appocalypse and regain his soul. When we got to Angel season 5, it was obvious that it could also be Spike. No one saw that coming, not even Joss. So of course it was originally meant to be Angel. But once Spike got into the picture with his new soul, his hero heart and the desire to fight the good fight, case is not closed anymore. It could also be him as much as it could be Angel. All the things you say that Angel did and is, so is Spike.

I will get into the why I think Spike deserves it more some other time. For now, I just wanted to say all that.

 

[Nikita]

if anyone that isnt Angel gets the shanshu I, like flannen are done (with anything after NFA) Im on my phone but I totally agree with everything said by flannen.
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[Spikefan31]

Hehe. When I saw this thread and it's title, my immediate thought was 'here we go...' Another Spike vs Angel battle. It's Bangel vs Spuffy without the Buffy. lol. 😀

I haven't really thought about whether one deserves it more than the other. I say both deserve it. However, even as a Spuffy and massive Spike fan, I'll admit Angel has done more good deeds (Yes, Spike got a soul by choice and saved the world, but Angel's been in the game a lot longer than him and pretty much dedicated his whole unlife to helping the helpless).

Then again,

Spoiler

he killed Giles. 🙁 😡

so I say Spike. 😀

Just kidding. I don't know. I say both. Or neither. I'll sit out this particular battle. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

I really don't think that the fact that we were led to believe Angel was the one during all of these years is a good enough reason for deserving it. Joss didn't know, when AtS started and he settles the prophechy thing, that he was going to make Spike a hero who will have a big part in the appocalypse and regain his soul. When we got to Angel season 5, it was obvious that it could also be Spike. No one saw that coming, not even Joss. So of course it was originally meant to be Angel. But once Spike got into the picture with his new soul, his hero heart and the desire to fight the good fight, case is not closed anymore. It could also be him as much as it could be Angel. All the things you say that Angel did and is, so is Spike.

But I'm not arguing that it's the reason Angel deserves it in the sense that he should have it more than Spike. Spike is absolutely not an option for me so it's not a case of who deserves it more. And as much as you don't think that it's a valid argument as to why it's clearly Angel's, the fact that Joss made up a plot along the way and scuppered his own show doesn't cut it for me either. I haven't personally said much about who Angel is or what he's done. The case as far as I'm concerned is that the show is called Angel. It really would be one of the most nonsensical things to then make it all about Spike. But Joss has done that before I suppose so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that he'd be prepared to ruin what he himself created.

 

[Kean]

Angel.

He has dedicated that last several years of his life to redemption, to being a good person, to trying to put the needs of others over his own. He has sought to help people. His level of success has varied. He started out on that journey not because he saw a prize at the end but because he knew it was the right thing to do. As his journey has continued he has been faced with several moments when it has been made clear that that prize may never come, in fact, it most likely will never happen and he still continues to fight. Not because he was called or because it was his destiny.

He fights because he knows it to be the right thing to do and he does it knowing full well that when his final days come he will sent to Hell for his efforts.

That's why he deserves it.

 

[methos]

isn't this a moot point?

Angel willingly signed away his rights to the Shanshu... just because the Black Thorne didn't get chance to file away the paperwork doesn't change the fact that he willingly signed away any hope of being a real human again...

Spike would have fought tooth and nail to find another way to do everything, but Angel signed away the Shanshu in blood without even trying to find another way...

Spike all the way

M

 

[BibliophileAnn]

Angel didn't ask to be a vampire but it has caused him to mature in a way he might not have if he had remained human. He deserves the Shanshu so he can take his new found maturity into his human life and also have his time in the sun however long the time lasts. 😀

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

lol So Angel sunbathes and then burns up right? I don't think that is going to happen. There are other ways Angel can become human other than the Shanshu. 😀

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Angel,

Spike shouldn't even get a consideration nod.

That has nothing to do with shipping, it's on the character, and Spike hasn't done enough to deserve it.

 

[mayfever]

Personally, I think none of the vamps really wants it. Angel had a chance once where he gave that back not only because he wanted Buffy safe, but also because he couldn't handle being human. And also, he had a chance to almost live like a human with the ring of Amarah. But he smashed it so he could come back to save people from the evil things that lurk to innocents in the dark. He wants to stay a vampire with super powers so he could fight evil. He knows that once he's human, it's gonna be a problem. And, when Spike beat him to the cup, Angel admitted that Spike wanted it more. Spike wanted it so bad, that in the first time in history he beat Angel.

But Angel didn't know about the Shanshu in "In the Dark" or "I Will Remember You". Both the Mohra humanity and the gem of Amara came to him as a coincidence, a shortcut if you will, and he didn't think he deserved it yet. As I said in the other thread, I don't think redemption can ever be fully achieved, but Angel was very aware that back in Season 1 he still had a very long way to go until he could even remotely be forgiven (even if it's only Angel who has to forgive himself).

When Angel says that Spike wants the Shanshu more, I think what he means is that he wants to be human so he can be with Buffy, and if being a hero is what it takes to get there, that's what he'll do. Angel, on the other hand, wants to be Shanshu-ed because he needs proof that he is finally redeemed so that he can feel worthy of Buffy.

Both vampires ultimately want the Shanshu to be with Buffy, but Spike wants it because he thinks Buffy won't be with him unless he's human and Angel, who already knows that she'd be with him even as a vampire, needs it so he'll let himself be with her.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well honestly, (and this has NOTHING to do with what has recently happened with the character of Angel in Season 8) I feel that Spike has worked harder for his soul and he chose to fight the good fight, so it should be he who gets the ultimate reward. Angel was cursed with his soul to make him suffer for an act of evil that he committed. Spike went on his own to get his soul, to prove himself to Buffy but ultimately to make him a better man. I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense to give it to him.

 

[Kean]

Well honestly, (and this has NOTHING to do with what has recently happened with the character of Angel in Season 8) I feel that Spike has worked harder for his soul and he chose to fight the good fight, so it should be he who gets the ultimate reward. Angel was cursed with his soul to make him suffer for an act of evil that he committed. Spike went on his own to get his soul, to prove himself to Buffy but ultimately to make him a better man. I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense to give it to him.

That makes unsouled Spike better than Angelus. It bears no reflection on who is the better souled vampire.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Angel.

I love both him and spike and I am spuffy that has nothing to do with why I think angel should get it. Like flannen said they spent four seasons of angel with the shanshu as a prize he could work for. It was written for angel long before joss decided to give spike a soul. I think its unfair in the last season simply for drama to try to take it away from angel.

Do they both deserve it? sure. But angel should get it. It was his show, his prophecy.
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[Tranquillity]

It's Angel's but I don't really think deserving comes into it. Angel has to bring about an apocolypse to make it happen (according to the cononical After the Fall). The Shanshu is not a good thing ... it doesn't mean "happily ever after" and all that - it will bring a whole new set of grief and burdensome guilt for Angel to deal with. Or kill him.