C
Who REALLY deserves the Shanshu?
- Thread starter Chosen Enemy
- Start date
zobothehobo
Scooby
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
You know what? I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. 😀 I hope Angel gets the Shanshu. Not because he deserves it (since I really believe both Angel and Spike deserve it), but because if Angel turns into a real boy again, he won't have his vampire strength anymore. Buffy and Spike can then go off and fight demons together! :biggrin3:
Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I agree a lot with what CE, Tranquility, and Zobothehobo have said in this thread. I wish I could give you guys rep, but I reached my limit for the day.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I agree a lot with what CE, Tranquility, and Zobothehobo have said in this thread. I wish I could give you guys rep, but I reached my limit for the day.
Z
zobothehobo
I can give you rep though
Kana
unless Buffy retires at the same time and she and Angel make babies together. lol ;)
Taaroko
Gunner of the USS Buffy/Angel
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2011
- Messages
- 438
I never even considered Spike to be a candidate for the Shanshu. It's Angel's, period. I don't need to use the "because it's Angel's show" argument, though I do think it's valid. In "Blind Date", before Angel even knows about the prophecy, he is drawn to the scroll containing it, which is why he steals it from W&H. Why would he be drawn to it if it wasn't meant for him?
After learning the contents of the prophecy, he spends the next four seasons fighting the good fight with the thought that someday he'll be granted forgiveness and redemption (which are what becoming human would mean to him). Of course, he isn't fighting *just* to get that, but the thought of it gives him hope, and the times when he loses that hope are very dark periods in his life.
Then, in "Not Fade Away", he proves absolutely that he's no longer in it for the reward when he signs the prophecy away. The idea that something as insignificant as a signature could actually have an impact on prophecy is absurd. The Circle of the Black Thorn is bluffing to see if Angel's really with them. Angel falls for the bluff because he pretty much expects his life to suck by now, so this doesn't really break the pattern. Signing it away proves he's worthy to receive it. (Kind of like how he wasn't returned from hell until Buffy stopped clinging to him and decided to try to move on. Cosmic irony: always fun.)
The Shanshu means so much to Angel, but Spike doesn't "give a piss about atonement". I'm not sure Spike would even want to be human. If he did, he'd go find a Mohra demon and mix his blood with its, and that would be that. Angel wants to *earn* it, no matter how long it takes.
Also, human means human full stop. No super strength, no vamp senses. For him to keep all the perks of being a vampire would be idiotic and entirely defeat the purpose. I hate it when writers do that in their fanfiction.
After learning the contents of the prophecy, he spends the next four seasons fighting the good fight with the thought that someday he'll be granted forgiveness and redemption (which are what becoming human would mean to him). Of course, he isn't fighting *just* to get that, but the thought of it gives him hope, and the times when he loses that hope are very dark periods in his life.
Then, in "Not Fade Away", he proves absolutely that he's no longer in it for the reward when he signs the prophecy away. The idea that something as insignificant as a signature could actually have an impact on prophecy is absurd. The Circle of the Black Thorn is bluffing to see if Angel's really with them. Angel falls for the bluff because he pretty much expects his life to suck by now, so this doesn't really break the pattern. Signing it away proves he's worthy to receive it. (Kind of like how he wasn't returned from hell until Buffy stopped clinging to him and decided to try to move on. Cosmic irony: always fun.)
The Shanshu means so much to Angel, but Spike doesn't "give a piss about atonement". I'm not sure Spike would even want to be human. If he did, he'd go find a Mohra demon and mix his blood with its, and that would be that. Angel wants to *earn* it, no matter how long it takes.
Also, human means human full stop. No super strength, no vamp senses. For him to keep all the perks of being a vampire would be idiotic and entirely defeat the purpose. I hate it when writers do that in their fanfiction.
A
A Flawed Fashion
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white avenger
white avenger
In the final analysis, though, isn't all of this debate, fun as it has been, lost track of a few things? Mainly, we have to keep in mind that Angel only became aware of the prophecy in the first place because he found the scroll in a vault in the Wolfram & Hart building. Since we know (and the Senior partners undoubtedly knew as well. They're evil, not stupid) that Angel could pretty much come and go there as he pleased, despite any security measures that could be devised against him, it was only a matter of time before he got into that vault, and once there, pretty much a given that he was going to find and steal the scroll. (in fact, there might have been some of spell compelling him to do so, since he, himself, said that he didn't even know why he took it) Maybe the whole thing from scroll to prophecy, even including the Cup Of Eternal Mountain Dew, was a total fraud, just a part of some obscure scheme that they haven't sprung yet.
Or, even assuming that it's all true, from the scroll to the prophecy, to potential award, is all total and wholly literal truth, the Shanshu isn't about who has worked the hardest to be worthy, who has done the most good, or even who has come the farthest in their quest for redemption.
The Shanshu will be awarded to the vampire who plays a key role, on the side of the Senior Partners, in one specific apocalypse. Nothing else, not who was cursed with their soul and who earned theirs, not who has helped the most people for the least selfish reasons, not who has come the closest to achieving a state of true redemption, not who drank what out of which cup, and most certainly not whose show it was, will matter in the least. Let me say that again. The Shanshu will be given to the vampire with the soul who plays a key part IN ONE SPECIFIC APOCALYPSE. Nothing in the past holds any bearing on the issue. Basically, it could be a totally random thing, ultimately decided by who survives the battle or simply who happens to be standing the closest to whoever is in charge of giving out the awards at that time.
I still believe that Angel will be the recipient of the reward or curse, depending on circumstances at the time, for one very specific reason: That reason is that I fully believe that Joss Whedon wants it to be that way.
Or, even assuming that it's all true, from the scroll to the prophecy, to potential award, is all total and wholly literal truth, the Shanshu isn't about who has worked the hardest to be worthy, who has done the most good, or even who has come the farthest in their quest for redemption.
The Shanshu will be awarded to the vampire who plays a key role, on the side of the Senior Partners, in one specific apocalypse. Nothing else, not who was cursed with their soul and who earned theirs, not who has helped the most people for the least selfish reasons, not who has come the closest to achieving a state of true redemption, not who drank what out of which cup, and most certainly not whose show it was, will matter in the least. Let me say that again. The Shanshu will be given to the vampire with the soul who plays a key part IN ONE SPECIFIC APOCALYPSE. Nothing in the past holds any bearing on the issue. Basically, it could be a totally random thing, ultimately decided by who survives the battle or simply who happens to be standing the closest to whoever is in charge of giving out the awards at that time.
I still believe that Angel will be the recipient of the reward or curse, depending on circumstances at the time, for one very specific reason: That reason is that I fully believe that Joss Whedon wants it to be that way.
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
A Flawed Fashion
Potential
This argument seems to be almost entirely based in "I like the way they portrayed [fill in the vampire]'s redemption better than the way they portrayed[fill in the other vampire]."
These two characters get pitted against each other to an absurd level. I have my opinions on this, but my problem with a lot of arguments for and against this is that they are very biased in which character a person likes better. Both of these vampires did good things and a lot of the things I see for why one deserves and the other doesn't are easily debatable. I think one of the two should get it, but it goes back to what I think of the two characters. I clearly like one more than the other, so I'm biased from the get like a lot of people are.
A part of me thinks the only people who could judge this are the people who hate both vampires but were forced to choose which one deserved it more.
These two characters get pitted against each other to an absurd level. I have my opinions on this, but my problem with a lot of arguments for and against this is that they are very biased in which character a person likes better. Both of these vampires did good things and a lot of the things I see for why one deserves and the other doesn't are easily debatable. I think one of the two should get it, but it goes back to what I think of the two characters. I clearly like one more than the other, so I'm biased from the get like a lot of people are.
A part of me thinks the only people who could judge this are the people who hate both vampires but were forced to choose which one deserved it more.
prophecygrrl
The girl in question
A big part of me thinks that the Shanshu shouldn't be considered a reward in the first place. So as far as who deserves it...I'm iffy on that. Really iffy.
It just doesn't make sense to me that either of them get it...? In Angel's case, I think somewhere along the line in AtS, atoning for his crimes became secondary to the greater mission...protecting the world, being a vampire Champion and that whole deal. I can't imagine him accepting the Shanshu if it is him. I think he accepted his own damnation a very long time ago, and it's more heroic to me that he fights without the promise of being truly redeemed. Also, the last message of NFA, to me, is that he'll always be fighting. He welcomes it as a duty. Again, I don't imagine him ever wanting to stop and become human, especially when it's more than likely that evil is always going to come regardless of anything he does. The point is that he does it anyway.
Plus he signs away the Shanshu in blood. Blooooooood. Huge consistent symbolism there, IMO. I don't think he would get the Shanshu even if he did deserve it.
And as for Spike...I don't think he would accept the Shanshu either. For one, I think he enjoys being a vampire far too much, and second, he's still got a lot of work to do, and I think he knows that.
It just doesn't make sense to me that either of them get it...? In Angel's case, I think somewhere along the line in AtS, atoning for his crimes became secondary to the greater mission...protecting the world, being a vampire Champion and that whole deal. I can't imagine him accepting the Shanshu if it is him. I think he accepted his own damnation a very long time ago, and it's more heroic to me that he fights without the promise of being truly redeemed. Also, the last message of NFA, to me, is that he'll always be fighting. He welcomes it as a duty. Again, I don't imagine him ever wanting to stop and become human, especially when it's more than likely that evil is always going to come regardless of anything he does. The point is that he does it anyway.
Plus he signs away the Shanshu in blood. Blooooooood. Huge consistent symbolism there, IMO. I don't think he would get the Shanshu even if he did deserve it.
And as for Spike...I don't think he would accept the Shanshu either. For one, I think he enjoys being a vampire far too much, and second, he's still got a lot of work to do, and I think he knows that.
soulunsung
Resident Bitca
So then it's decided, yeah?! Angel can have the damn Shanshu, since it so righteously belongs to him AND Spike can have Buffy as his reward.
.😛ponders this for a moment😛.
Yeah...I'm okay with this. 😉
---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------
Dually noted, and I counter with this: that's your opinion that it would have been incredibly wrong and you're entitled to it. However, myself and other's who have argued far better and quite a bit more eloquently than I can, tend to feel differently. And I think I'll leave my response at that. 🙂
W
WakingNightmare
Sounds good :)
Skanky Vamp
Re: the spike karma.. he was on the show for one episode, and then becomes a member of the cast for the last season. While not a new character, he was 'new' to the show. It just would have been incredibly wrong.
Miss Kitty
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