Who used who? Spike and Buffy

[fly on the wall]

(If there's already a similar topic, I apologize in advance.)

I often see people discussing how Buffy used Spike in Season Six, and how horrible it was, etc etc. It's obvious that throughout S6, Buffy feels some extreme guilt over the fact that she's been using Spike. But I've always felt the opposite...like Spike used HER more than she used him. She was depressed, and confused, and couldn't be honest about any of it to her friends at first. She took comfort in Spike because it was safe; she could tell him things (like the fact that she'd been ripped out of heaven) that she couldn't tell anybody else. She began a physical relationship with him in order to feel something other than emptiness and sadness. And I've always sort of felt like Spike manipulated that and used it to his benefit. Sure, he was in love with her, but you'd think if he TRULY cared about her, he'd see what their relationship was doing to her emotionally and would put an end to it. I love Spike, but I see him as very selfishly motivated this season.

So, what's your opinion? Who used who more? Or, did they use each other equally? Or, did they not use each other at all? Discuss. 🙂

 

[LizzieRainbow]

well i used to think they used each other equally but reading what you wrote sort of makes me agree, yeah buffy used spike a bit but like you say she has jsut been pulled out of heaven back to demons etc she clearly wasnt using spike to make her feel good about herself otherwise she would ahve told people or actually felt good about herself.
Spike used Buffy in a way of he couldnt kill her cos of the chip so herwould get her in another way i mean a vampire sleeping with a slayer? how many of them can say they have done that?

But im still not 100% with my answer of who used who more....i think there is a lot to be looked at in this.

 

[fly on the wall]

Yeah, I agree there's not a clear-cut answer, and it sort of depends where your sympathies lie. Do you feel bad for the girl that's depressed, who was finally at peace before being pulled back to a cold, unforgiving world? Or do you feel worse for a neutered vampire who's constantly trying to make the woman he loves see him as more than just a demon?

 

[Kelsey]

Well, this is right up my alley. =)

Their situation's a hard one, especially because I'm sympathetic to both characters. Buffy was miserable, and with good reason. She was also alone, because everyone was forcing her to be pre-Death Buffy, and that just wasn't her anymore (at least, not at that time). There was a growing darkness within her, as well, which stemmed from her inability to feel and her increasing depression. For this reason, I think she sought out Spike. He could handle the darkness; he could handle to secrets. And, as he put it in Rest In Peace, telling him the truth didn't make it real, because he wasn't her friend, or one of the Scoobies, or anything to her, really. The friendship we saw in the beginning of Season 6 stemmed from this, and it wasn't necessarily wrong. He wanted to be there for her; he obviously enjoyed the fact that she began to lean on him a little.

Once the sexual relationship began, though, everything just snowballed. She hated herself for wanting him, and she put herself back into the mindset of, "Spike doesn't deserve humane treatment because he's not human." She had not always thought this way; Spike's words to her in The Gift proved that. But Buffy's treatment of him changed from the moment they have sex, and changed drastically. She treated him, to put in simply, like the monster she convinced herself he was.

This lead to her abusing him, and viciously; the scene in the alley most readily comes to mind. She saw everything she hates about herself in him, and she essentially punished herself by beating the hell out of him. She felt dark and wretched, and based on her strict beliefs regarding good and evil, he was the only one she can really take it out on. Yelling at Willow, beating Xander to a bloody pulp--Buffy's concience would obviously never have allowed it, even though both arguably had more to do with her current pain than Spike. But Spike wasn't human, wasn't good, wasn't real, so it didn't matter. And he was also ready to take the blame, be her punching bag if she needed it; he essentially enabled her.

On the other hand, did Spike take advantage of her? The answer to that question is a resounding "Yes." He wanted to help her in the beginning, but then by some miracle (or curse) he got what he wanted. And Spike, despite his great ability to love and feel, is essentially selfish. He tasted the passion he's always craved from Buffy, and he couldn't let it go. He knew she would slip away from him, so he repeatedly tried to pull her back down to him. There was also anger mixed in with that selfishness, because she hurt him, and hurt him repeatedly, and he wanted to do the same.

So really, I don't think you could say one abused the other more. It was a toxic relationship, a sad imitation of what I believe Spuffy can be, and they both played their parts in it.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well I think in that season it was a little of both. I mean, Spike's feelings were real, but Buffy's definitely weren't; she was only in it for the bringing-down-the-house-literally sex. Spike wanted more, but I know he enjoyed having a booty call, too...

 

[Ulrikke]

I think we can all agree that the Spuffy relationship (in season 6) was an abusive one - but do I think one participant was worse or more to blame than the other? Not really. Buffy was depressed, yes, and while she did a lot of awful things that year, I don't blame her. She was miserable and wasn't being cruel or abusive on purpose - well, I guess you could say she was, but my point is that she was depressed and seriously self-loathing; it was never about Spike.
You could argue then that Spike should have been the bigger man and helped Buffy instead trying to draw her into the darkness with him. He should. But Spike, being a vampire and a neutered one at that, was arguably just as screwed up as Buffy was. There he was, a neutered vampire on love with a Slayer, trying to do good for her sake. But then out of nowhere she starts giving him the attention he so craves; she's being nicer to him, and then out of nowhere they kiss and before long they've slept together. Spike should be happy. Finally! But he's terrified of what this means. So instead of entering further into her world, he tries to convince her that she belongs in his. It's more comfortable for him there. He knows it, less risky.

I guess it would be easy to - like Buffy - blame everything on Spike. He's a vampire afterall. He's evil. But I guess I like a more complex look at things. Me, I find it hard to hate or blame vampires for what they are. It doesn't mean I have to like them or what they do, nor do I cry for them when Buffy stakes them. I sort of look at them like drug addicts - not necessarily bad people, but they've got a bad habit which makes them do nasty things.

I think I may start to go in circles now, and this has turned out way longer than I wanted or expected it to - I only meant to write a few sentences! My point was that if we excuse Buffy's bad behaviour due to her depression, then Spike, being just as screwed up the way I see it, deserves the same courtesy.

 

[cryptwarmer]

I think Spike really thought that Buffy had feelings for him that she wasn't letting herself feel, and he hoped to bring them out in her. I think he really believed that his dark life had something to offer her, and that he could be for her what others could not, if she'd just get over the vamp/slayer thing.

No doubt he enjoyed the sex, and even the violence, he was a souless vampire and those things appeal to such. But I do think he honestly believed that he could "save" her.

All relationships have selfless and selfish aspects, even healthy ones. I acknowledge that I need/want my spouse to do things for me, meet my needs, and if it all became one sided, I'd walk. And I know there are things he needs from me as well, that's part of the deal.

So, in all relationships, people use one another to get their needs met, the thing is, do they do it honestly and fairly.

If one of them pretended feelings they did not have, that's dishonest, neither did that. Buffy never pretended to care for Spike beyond what she truly did, just to get kinky sex. She was upfront, and he accepted it. Vice versa, she KNEW he had deeper feelings for him, he never tried to hide it.

So, yes, they used one another but they didn't lie to each other. It wasn't the healthiest relationship, but it wasn't as twisted and damaging as it could have been had dishonesty been thrown into the deal.

I think they both took advantage of the others feelings/needs. She took advantage of him loving her enough not to hurt her or kill her, even though he could, to play out her rage and darkness. He took advantage of her rage and darkness to get close to her, hoping it could turn into more. Taking crumbs since he couldn't get the slice of cake.

It was more sad than anything, because they had real things to offer one another, but were in a place where they were trapped by their own needs, fears, limitations.

 

[fly on the wall]

^ I agree that they were pretty straight-forward about their intentions.

But I'm not sure I'm convinced about Spike's intentions being so pure...if Spike really honestly believed he could make Buffy love him and feel again by having lots and lots of sex with her, he had to have been deep in denial. It's obvious that what Buffy is doing in Season Six is tearing her apart. She's absolutely disgusted with herself. Sleeping with Spike is more about self-hate than anything resembling love for him, and she doesn't hide that. When she beats him up in Dead Things, it's obvious she's putting her feelings about herself onto him. Spike's not stupid. In love, but not stupid. He had to know how miserable Buffy was, being with him. And he did nothing to stop it.

I definitely think Buffy was using him. But the reason that I feel he used her "more" is because in many ways, Buffy was using him to hurt herself. She felt repulsed, disgusting, undeserving of a "real" relationship. She let him do these things to her because feeling disgusted was better than feeling nothing. On the other hand, Spike was using her to get to sleep with the person he loves, and sure, the situation still sucked for him, but his actions here are so selfish it's hard to sympathize. He was not helping Buffy by having sex with her. In the beginning of S6, he was there for her emotionally, but as the season went on it became all about HIS feelings. He drew her away from her friends and isolated her, he didn't push her to be social with them (something that actually may have made her feel something positive), instead of helping her see the light to life he let her stay in the darkness, with him. A lot of that was Buffy's decision, I know, but depressed people don't always make the best choices. The people that love them are supposed to be the ones with clear minds, who do what's best for them, and Spike didn't. He allowed her to wallow in her unhappiness--in fact, he embraced the fact that she was wallowing.

 

[Kelsey]

I don't think he necessarily drew her away from her friends. She was already so cut off from them, and that really wasn't anyone's fault. Before the Balcony Scene she was already apart from them without his help. Of course, during that scene he did tell her she didn't belong with them, which was terrible in itself.

I think he did make himself think that she could love him--his response after the breakup proves as much. I also think he was right; I think she could have loved him, but not in that situation and not in that kind of relationship. At his darkest moments, he most certainly used the fact that she wanted him to his advantage. He seemed to think that as long as he kept her coming back for more, he had time to make her see that she loved him.

He let it get so twisted in his head that he may not even have realized what he was doing to her. Afterall, she was so miserable already, it may have been difficult to tell one type of Buffy-misery from the other. Or perhaps he was aware and just couldn't bring himself to care; either one seems possible.

On the hand, though, Buffy was just as cruel, and in almost the same way. She used the fact that Spike loved her to her advantage, because she could go to him when she was desperate to feel something. He wouldn't turn her down; I don't believe he could. The scene in As You Were ("Tell me you love me....") is very telling, I think, because at that point she wasn't using him just to feel something. She was using him to boost her own self-confidence, even though throwing him a bone like that was bound to get his hopes up.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I've never thought about it like that, to be honest, but now that you say it I see your point.
I think we all agree Buffy used Spike. I mean, like she already sung in OMWF, "and I just want to feel". But Spike...
I've been in similar situations myself. Not that I got 'used' by someone like that, but that I was more or less desperately clinging to someone, wantig to at least sleep with them once in a while if not more. And, from my experience, in that situation you would do almost anything to get what you want, out of love screaming inside your blood. And that's the point. I don't know if you can call that using. He was obviously in love with Buffy and really would have done anything for her, BUT he didn't force her to anything. Of course he sort of 'used' how emotionally fragile she was at that time, but it was still Buffy who started it all. Their first kiss, the time they had that encouter in that building that was falling apart...all of that was initiated by Buffy. And when somebody you're in love with is throwing themselves at you like that, I wouldn't say it's using anymore, because they play that knowing-you-love-them card. Now, if Spike hadn't been in love with Buffy and just wanted some easy sex, THAT would've been using imo, but not like that.
Also, let's not forget Spike was a vampire without a soul when he was sleeping with her, so it's not like you can really expect great nobility from those, something Buffy herself also knew.
So yes, summing up I think it was Buffy who did most of the using. This is something I don't judge her for, though, looking at the circumstnces (being ripped out of Heaven) it was very understandable.

 

[Kelsey]

Nice post, Cangel! I agree. Although I think that Spike has been known to be noble, just not in this situation.

 

[fly on the wall]

Also, let's not forget Spike was a vampire without a soul when he was sleeping with her, so it's not like you can really expect great nobility from those, something Buffy herself also knew.

But he had already done plenty of noble things out of his love for Buffy. He'd fought alongside the Scoobies, he'd been willing to sacrifice himself to protect Dawn, hell, he'd even been demoted to babysitter after Buffy died, and looked after Dawn without complaint. I don't think nobility was at all unattainable for soulless Spike, especially where Buffy was concerned. Yet while sleeping together, all of this goes out the window. There's a difference, in my opinion, of clinging to someone you love and leeching off their miserableness. I agree wholeheartedly that Buffy was isolating herself, initiating contact with Spike, etc, but what was Spike doing? Telling her he was the only one that could ever understand her, telling her she didn't belong with her friends, telling her she was a dark animal...all to get her to be with him. And all that makes it feel like she was being used.

 

[Primal Slayer]

They both used each other. Buffy used Spike to feel something and Spike used Buffy to feel close to her. Sometimes Buffy would engage the sex between the two and other times Spike would tempt her into sex.

 

[Pulse]

So I haven't given much thought to this, but I pretty much agree, Spike was using her. I also definitely think they had the makings of a great friendship before they started to sleep together. Spike, even souless, isn't a half bad guy. Actually I really want to see another vampire with a soulm because I want to see if they'd be more like Spike's pre/post soul dynamic, or like Angel's which is like being two different people. Anyways, Spike has some sort of twisted good in him, or I think he always wanted to belong. So he wanted something, Buffy, and once he got there, I think he got that sense of belonging and essentially turned into a really bad guy, or pretty much became someone who was maliciously manipulating someone he claimed to love. His good deeds, and her liking of him I think did go out the window when they started to sleep with each other. I think the assessment above that Buffy started to convince herself that he wasn't real is spot on. Great topic, and a lot of great replies in this one!

 

[white avenger]

As much as some of us wish to the contrary, the Buffy/Spike relationship in Season 6, though it began with really great potential, was never anything but animal lust and mutual abuse. I do think that Buffy was more to blame for the way it developed toward the end, but the truth is that it became a mutual use/abuse relationship.

 

[LadyLavinia]

You could argue then that Spike should have been the bigger man and helped Buffy instead trying to draw her into the darkness with him. He should. But Spike, being a vampire and a neutered one at that, was arguably just as screwed up as Buffy was.

He tried to help Buffy. Spike tried to help Buffy ease out of her depression. He even resorted to giving her advice about not wallowing in her inner darkness every now and then. But she saw him more as an embarassment and a source of quick sex to ease her problems. The only time when Spike ever tried to "seduce her into darkness" was in one episode. Instead, he spent most of their relationship allowing himself to be used by Buffy and later, force her to reveal their relationship to the Scoobies.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Spike was tender with Buffy much more than she was tender with him. And there WERE ways in which only he could understand what she'd been through. He recongnized her injured hands from clawing her way out of her coffin. He was the one she chose to reveal she'd been in heaven to first. He was the one who was willing/able to step in in OMWF and stop her self destructive dance and tell her...not to enter the underworld, but to go on living! So one of them would be living.

What I am saying is that all his motivations for being good to her were not to get into her pants. And after she initiated several kisses...he wanted to TALK about it, she refused. He was thrilled when they were having an actual discussion after sex. He several times asked her to NOT "lead him on" if she didn't have feelings for him. Asked her to be honest and come clean about their relationship with friends, etc. So at least some of the time he was making efforts to bring their relationship to a "higher plane", but she didn't want any of that.

Yes, he loved the raunchy sex, and he loved the way, even though she denied it vehemently, that she came to him, for more than just sex. And she did. That's why he believed she had deeper feelings for him, because there were other aspects of their relationship, even when things were at their raunchiest, she did want and need him for things other than sex, and he recognized that.

I'm not sure if Spike really saw how what Buffy was doing with him was hurting her. He might have been blind to that either willfully or innocently. By her own admission the only time she felt anything was with him, he was the only one who she could share certain things with. He was the only one with certain experiences, etc, that she could play out her issues with. I do believe that he thought he was helping her get over what she'd been through, and that after the ugly was all out of her, she'd see him as her hero.

He did continually show that he wanted their relationship to be MORE...he wasn't satisfied with it just being kinky sex on the sly, he wanted the tenderness, the sharing, the recognition of her friends, the trust.

He tried to appeal to her both through tenderness and violence, desperate to get through.

But, like I've said earlier, yes, they used one another to get their needs/desires met, but that is what relationships are, and they were honest about it. Neither of them was really lying to the other. If either of them was dishonest or leading the other on, it was Buffy, who, after Spike repeatedly asked her not to go any further if she had no feelings, kept coming after him but saying it was only for sex. She did sort of lead him on emotionally...I mean that coming to him and asking him to tell her he loved and wanted her...and then dumping him later that day?

I sympathize with her, she was really messed up, but she was uglier to him than he was to her.

 

[Kelsey]

once he got there, I think he got that sense of belonging and essentially turned into a really bad guy, or pretty much became someone who was maliciously manipulating someone he claimed to love.

I'm not quite sure I agree with this; I wouldn't say bad guy so much as increasingly desperate one. However, when you put it that way, it's quite easy to draw a parallel between Spike and Angel. Even without a soul, once he slept with Buffy his actions became decidedly worse.

As for Spike not realizing what he was doing to Buffy, I've thought about it and I believe that lies more on Buffy's shoulders than his. She was the one who initiated sex for most of their relationship; she felt disgusted with herself, but it was up to her to make it stop. Also, she either didn't realize or didn't care what her actions were doing to Spike; it was obviously killing him too.

On another note, I think the blame is put on totally Buffy by some fans because so much blame was put on Spike in the show. His worst action during their relationship, of course, was the attempted rape. There is no excusing that, but at the same time, there is no excusing Buffy's treatment of him either. In fact, I'd say that some of Buffy's actions were just as bad as Spike attempting to rape her. However, since she was a woman, and since it was rape rather than abuse, the entire relationship tends to be blamed on Spike. He paid heavily for this crime and other ones, but Buffy never really had to atone for her sins. Some of which, I feel, were just as evil as the actions of the "soulless thing."
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I agree completely, cryptwarmer! Nice post.

 

[disturbedvanity]

They used each other....but that's what made them so human. It's what people do to each other. It's how they related to one another.

Not like I was banging a vampire or anything [i wish!!] but I've been there.

 

[Kana]

I'm actually not sure. I'll possibly post on this more extensively when I'm, you know, not at work. The problem with Spike is that I find it harder to get a read on what's going on inside him internally. However down Buffy was feeling, she herself takes responsibility for using him, his intentions are a little more ambiguous.