Who Wants to Discuss Season 6?

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm sorry but I don't think the attempted rape was "out-of-nowhere" at all. He's a demon, without a soul. Besides that, look at the way he was treating Buffy. Like in the episode Dead Things -- the stuff he was saying to her on the balcony. It's not like he treated her above everything.

No, it as out of nowhere and at the time, and completely OOC for Spike.

It was like the writers got scared that Spike was so popular, and they were upset that they had humanized him to a point where he threatened the mythos of the 'verse they had created. They felt they needed to have him do something so awful in order to remind the fans of what he was - a vampire, a demon. Problem was, they had him do something that Spike would have never done if it hadn't been for the lazy writing - try to rape the girl he claimed he had loved for over two years.

At the time, Spike hadn't acted with malice or violently towards Buffy for quite some time. Actually, he allowed her to beat on him in 'Dead Things', to use your example. The scene in 'Seeing Red' made about as much sense as, well...it didn't.

IMO, the writers couldn't think of anything worse for Spike to do that would be so catastrophic. They needed some event to be the catalyst to inspire him to get a soul, because that was where the story was going, and the road to redemption Spike was being led down.

The guilt that comes from trying to hurt the one you love qualified, I guess. Whoever wrote 'Seeing Red' obviously didn't have a proper handle of Spike at that time.

As a matter of fact, alot of the Spuffy sex scenes resemble the attempted rape scene, especially the balcony scene in Dead Things. Spike goes to her, starts feeling up on her or whatever you'd like to call it, and instead of just letting him do it to her like she did on the balcony, she tries to stop him. But, he doesn't stop.

She doesn't try to stop him. She could have, easily. But she doesn't.

Sure, their sexual relationship was dysfunctional, but both parties were to blame. Buffy used Spike for sex in exactly the same way Spike used her for sex. The difference was that he always wanted more, while all she wanted was his body.

 

[InsaneMystic]

No, it as out of nowhere and at the time, and completely OOC for Spike.

It was like the writers got scared that Spike was so popular, and they were upset that they had humanized him to a point where he threatened the mythos of the 'verse they had created. They felt they needed to have him do something so awful in order to remind the fans of what he was - a vampire, a demon. Problem was, they had him do something that Spike would have never done if it hadn't been for the lazy writing - try to rape the girl he claimed he had loved for over two years.

At the time, Spike hadn't acted with malice or violently towards Buffy for quite some time. Actually, he allowed her to beat on him in 'Dead Things', to use your example. The scene in 'Seeing Red' made about as much sense as, well...it didn't.

[bold part stressed by me]

I know I'm treading on mighty thin ice here as I know it might come across as justification of rape, but I need to point out where exactly I'm disagreeing with your string of thought.

The Spuffy sex was about agression, violence, and pain as a matter of course, so the violence aspect can completely be disregarded here. From Spike, coming on to Buffy violently doesn't constitute rape, in itself. It's just sex, period.

Which brings up the second aspect you mentioned. I don't see any malice in the attempted rape. I am certain that it was not Spike's intention to hurt Buffy, he indeed "meant no harm" in what he was doing. He was desperately trying to get through to her, in the same (and only) way that had always worked before, and which, I say it again, Buffy had pretty much groomed him to think of as ok over the cause of their dysfunctional relationship. This would have been enough to cause significant confusion over what's right or wrong in this situation even in somebody with a soul.

Was it a horrible scene? Yes. Was Spike right and justified in doing it? Certainly not. Does it constitute something which should be considered a criminal offense? Hell yes. But am I comfortable calling it "rape" - one of the worst crimes there is, with the implications of malicious violence against a hapless victim? No, I am not. Buffy was a HUGE accomplice in this, and Spike should definitely be acknowledged quite significant mitigating circumstances here. It's not the worst we've seen other people - Scoobies, people with souls - do in the show. And with his reaction to it afterwards, he's definitely one of the most decent of them handling the aftermath, even without a soul.

Seeing Red does not ruin Spike's character. It makes it shine in all his champion potential.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

It's not S2, but S3 that is blergh! in that respect. Thankfully, with the Faith/Mayor arc and great overall quality of eps, the season more than makes up for making me wanna fast forward every time I see Buffy and Angel together in that season (and yes, that includes pretty much the whole of "Amends", which I find painfully lame an episode. 😛 ).

ITA. I love Angelus, but Bangel = maple syrup vomit to me. 😉

 

[EllaBlack]

I love the episodes between Once More With Feeling and Seeing Red

 

[Kelsey]

Seeing Red did one thing very well; it very accurately portrayed rape. I realize Spike didn't rape her, but the attack was very well done and well-acted by both actors--so much so that it was scary and painful to watch.

What Seeing Red didn't do, however, was accurately portray the characters. First, Buffy has never been a victim. It goes against her very nature as a Slayer. She is the strongest person on the show, and she can kick almost anyone’s ass. On top of that, her personality has always been to fight, fight, fight. One, her loss of strength was so contrived that it was completely unbelievable, and two, I don’t think Buffy would have reacted the way she did. Granted, you can argue that Buffy had never been attacked in such a way and was surprised, but I think her instincts would still kick in.

Second, I don’t think Spike was shown anymore accurately than Buffy. I know there’s always the, “He’s a demon; of course it’s in character” argument, but I find this argument shallow and generalizing. Spike was a character, not just a monster, and as such he had character traits. If the attack had been set up differently or handled differently it might have fit him better, but I am not convinced that Spike would assault the woman he loved and had fought so hard to change for. I saw the writers sacrificing both of the characters they’d built up in order to accurately portray an issue that didn’t fit into either Spike or Buffy’s personality.

I also want to point out that I would never (and I think my fellow Spuffies are with me on this) defend rape. When we delve into the issues of it, it's not defending, but explaining. There are reasons Spike did what he did, just like there are reasons Buffy did what she did. I think we ALL can agree that Spike was wrong, but it wasn't as if it was in his nature to just wake up in the evening and say, "Well, I think I'll go assault Buffy today."

 

[GrrArghx]

Kelsey disagrees: Sorry, I disagree. Spike started getting bolder towards the end of the Season, but Buffy initiated A LOT of it. And she often did the exact same thing; kept going even if HE said no. I'm not defending the AR, but I don't think what you said was fair.

That wasn't really my point. I was talking about the way he treated her. Just because she initiated the sex doesn't give him the right to say those things to her does it? I know that Buffy used him and yes, it was unfair, but that wasn't where I was trying to go with this.

 

[Kelsey]

That wasn't really my point. I was talking about the way he treated her. Just because she initiated the sex doesn't give him the right to say those things to her does it? I know that Buffy used him and yes, it was unfair, but that wasn't where I was trying to go with this.

I understand what you're trying to get through, but the point I wanted to make was that Spike was not at fault for a lot of their encounters. He's a willing participant, sure, but the blame has to be spread equally. He wasn't a "good" man in the sense that he was willing to treat Buffy better than she was asking him to treat her. Is he wrong for so? Yes. He should have seen how their relationship was affecting Buffy and wanted to do what was best for her, but he was too selfish. But is it his responsibility? No. Buffy is responsible for stopping it if she wants it stopped.

Deep down, as much as she hated it, she didn't want to stop. She actively pursued him just as much as he did her. And does she have the right to speak to Spike the way she did? To pound his face in and call him an "evil, soulless thing"? No, absolutely not. He didn't treat her like she was above everything, but she treated him like he was below everything. Both are wrong.

Too often blame is heaped on Spike for being exactly what you called him in your earlier post; a monster and a demon. Personally, I don't even see how either of those comes into play here. Does it work towards not making Spike a "nice" man? Sure, if you want to look at it that way. But his faults in that relationship were extremely human and emotionally based. Spike the man is at fault here, not Spike the monster. If you don't see the difference between the two, then we probably won't agree.

 

[GrrArghx]

I understand what you're trying to get through, but the point I wanted to make was that Spike was not at fault for a lot of their encounters. He's a willing participant, sure, but the blame has to be spread equally. He wasn't a "good" man in the sense that he was willing to treat Buffy better than she was asking him to treat her. Is he wrong for so? Yes. He should have seen how their relationship was affecting Buffy and wanted to do what was best for her, but he was too selfish. But is it his responsibility? No. Buffy is responsible for stopping it if she wants it stopped.

Deep down, as much as she hated it, she didn't want to stop. She actively pursued him just as much as he did her. And does she have the right to speak to Spike the way she did? To pound his face in and call him an "evil, soulless thing"? No, absolutely not. He didn't treat her like she was above everything, but she treated him like he was below everything. Both are wrong.

Too often blame is heaped on Spike for being exactly what you called him in your earlier post; a monster and a demon. Personally, I don't even see how either of those comes into play here. Does it work towards not making Spike a "nice" man? Sure, if you want to look at it that way. But his faults in that relationship were extremely human and emotionally based. Spike the man is at fault here, not Spike the monster. If you don't see the difference between the two, then we probably won't agree.

I do know that. In trying to point out how Spike was treating her, it made it seem like I was putting the blame on him but I'm not. I know they both were at fault, and I do think it was extremely wrong of Buffy to use him. But, I think it was as wrong of him to take advantage of that, even though I understand that he loved her and wanted her.

I was just trying to say I honestly don't understand how people would think it was out of character for Spike to do something like that. It's in his nature to be violent. I know he hadn't really been that way up to that point before hand, but it still didn't really surprise me as much as it did other people.

 

[Kelsey]

I was just trying to say I honestly don't understand how people would think it was out of character for Spike to do something like that. It's in his nature to be violent. I know he hadn't really been that way up to that point before hand, but it still didn't really surprise me as much as it did other people.

Because it's also in his nature to love, and to let that love take over everything. I was surprised because he never truly wanted to hurt Buffy. He liked fighting and he was a violent person, but Buffy on some level was the same way. That was how they reacted to each other and they both enjoyed it. But he never truly wanted to hurt her. And in this scene, it was definitely a different kind of violence.

A few episodes before he'd said, "I don't hurt you" in response to her accusing him of putting the cameras in the Magic Shop. I believe him. I think there are some lines he wouldn't cross. That said, I also believe he was truly twisted and confused after the hurricane that was Spuffy in Season 6. I think he would acted violently toward her, but the AR just... didn't seem right. The setup, with Buffy being the weaker victim, just didn't fit well with their characters or the overall tone of their relationship.

 

[Chris2]

What Seeing Red didn't do, however, was accurately portray the characters. First, Buffy has never been a victim. It goes against her very nature as a Slayer. She is the strongest person on the show, and she can kick almost anyone's ass. On top of that, her personality has always been to fight, fight, fight. One, her loss of strength was so contrived that it was completely unbelievable, and two, I don't think Buffy would have reacted the way she did. Granted, you can argue that Buffy had never been attacked in such a way and was surprised, but I think her instincts would still kick in.

Totally agreed. Buffy's reaction to the attack was unbelievable, and it's clear to me that it was written this way solely to make her seem more of a victim and Spike more reprehensible, at the expense of her characterisation.

I'm less sure about how out of character it was for Spike. As has already been mentioned, he was used to violence being a part of their sexual relationship, and I don't think he realised that this time was different until too late. I think he really expected her to reciprocate - he seemed genuinely shocked afterwards, as if he only then realised what it was he had just done.

Still, even if I do accept Spike's behaviour as in character, I don't think it happened for that reason - it was a forced plot device to remind the viewers that Spike was evil, and to act as a catalyst to prompt him to go and have his soul restored.

 

[Eleftheria]

Season 6 is very different from what i have seen right now. I just need to watch the last 3 episodes although I already know about Dark Willow and stuff.

It took me a while to adjust to the new circumstances.

First of all, in Bargaining I can't express how much i hated Willow.I am very sorry to say this.I loved her and in season 5 i really liked how she helped Buffy.
But did she do it to save Buffy from a hell dimension? Or did she do it because she was so selfish and she felt thsat without the Slayer Sunnydale would be turned into Hell and everything was harder? Or maybe, she felt so strong, she could do anything. Even disturbing dead people. I could never forgive her for what she did. All the Scoobies are to blame cause they were careless, but IMO, I blame Will more.

Buffy coming back is a painful thing to watch. I am so glad my favourite heroine is back...but this is not Buffy. It is just a shadow.If Giles had been with the Scoobies, this would never happen. She finds out she is back on Earth and that she HAS to be alive and kicking again. She doesn't express any feelings, her face is frozen(well done to Sarah's performance once again!), she feels dead inside. I could use a metaphor here. I see her as a little girl that she wants to go to sleep and you just wake her up after 10 mins of sleep. You destroy her serenity.
Also she can't avoid being controlled by Spike's words. I never understood that. She hates him and yet she is influenced by everything he says or does. At least after Smashed she says that only one vampire got her hot.And he is not here anymore.

Also...they say season 6 is characters growing up. It is about Buffy facing life as the Big Bad.
IMO Buffy is already a grown up. When she was only 20 years old, she faced the death of her mother, she lost the most important person in her life, she finds out that her memories are fake, but she still carries the weight of the world in her shoulders. She protects Dawn from anyone, she faces break up from Riley(second boyfriend who leaves town...ironic somehow...) and she finally completes her role as a Slayer saving the world and her sister. She put away all selfishness for her sister.

Season 6 is not about growing up. It is about making mistakes and "shit happening" actually. Cause nothing in her life is good in season 6. No college...no feelings...no money...no mom...just feeling numb. And also Joss is a real sadist cause no character gets happy after all. Will loses Tara and she turns bad ass. Xander leaves Anya in the altar and Anya chooses to move on with the person everyone seems to use when sex is involved in season 6... Spike.

And "seeing red" was played extremely well by both Sarah and James. Her screams freaked me out. It was a very realistic scene. I feel very bad watching the rape-attempt scene. I think Spike has no soul and that's why, even with the chip, he can not distinguish right from wrong. He is a demon inside. He can't understand that it is over. And I feel so sorry for Buffy. She seems so hurt. And I feel sorry for her that she didn't stop the unhealthy relationship earlier.

Sorry for the long post but I had a problem with my internet connection so I needed to express all those feelings right now.