Who was in the Wrong? (Briley)

[BookemDanno]

I don't think either was "right" or "wrong."

Buffy was too "I must deal with this on my own, I must carry the world on my shoulders, I must not appear weak" just as Riley was being too "I want to be big and strong and my girlfriend's bigger and stronger than me, wahhh!"

So wrong. Buffy was "Angel and Parker burned me, I can't let anyone in or else I'll get hurt again. I'm so stressed out and I can't give Riley any more." Riley was "Buffy keeps me shut out emotionally, the only thing she shares with me is slaying and I've lost the strength to do it. I'm crazy in love with Buffy, what do I have to do to get her to love me as much."

Buffy didn't realize that she didn't need to give Riley anything other than trusting him enough to lean on him emotionally. Riley wanted to give her support but she wouldn't take it.

Riley was just bad at communication. I don't think it was just that Buffy was stronger than him, she always was. It was that he couldn't be a part of slaying which was the only thing she really shared with him.

 

[fly on the wall]

So wrong. Buffy was "Angel and Parker burned me, I can't let anyone in or else I'll get hurt again. I'm so stressed out and I can't give Riley any more." Riley was "Buffy keeps me shut out emotionally, the only thing she shares with me is slaying and I've lost the strength to do it. I'm crazy in love with Buffy, what do I have to do to get her to love me as much."

Buffy didn't realize that she didn't need to give Riley anything other than trusting him enough to lean on him emotionally. Riley wanted to give her support but she wouldn't take it.

Riley was just bad at communication. I don't think it was just that Buffy was stronger than him, she always was. It was that he couldn't be a part of slaying which was the only thing she really shared with him.

Yes, she was always stronger than him. And it always bugged him.

I think it's in "A New Man" where Buffy tells Riley and Prof. Walsh the details about her slaying, how many demons she's slayed, etc etc...and even this early on in their relationship, Riley feels inferior.

I'm sure that Buffy was emotionally distancing herself, in a sense. But it was about more than just that. Riley says so himself. It was about not being as dark, strong, and mysterious as Angel and Dracula. It was about the darkness and strength of being a Slayer that Riley just couldn't grasp. A whole lot of it WAS about primal strength. I think Buffy's inability to connect with Riley on an emotional level was about her trying to be strong. Confessions, letting her guard down like she did with Angel and Parker, well, it feels like weakness to her.

It all comes down to strength.

 

[PDH5204]

"Death is your gift". Her gift is supposed to be given to all humanity and her sacrifice of self in service of a world in need of saving is her death. And so her life was meant to be her death. So she can never give Riley what he needs. It isn't personal. It's mission. She's to be the one who can say, everyday, if she accomplishes mission...today I died again. Her tragedy was in not accepting that premise until a little late in the game. She may have ran after Riley, but good that she was late, since what she later admitted to Spike was true for Riley as well [as Mr. Convenient does translate to, I'm using you].

If it helps, that jumping in to save the world, well, that was, figuratively speaking, supposed to be everyday. That's why she said to Dawn at the end of the season [and, remember, she had just told Giles prior that killing was her gift, and so with the notion of killing as her gift in mind she tells Dawn there at the end]....tell Giles I figured it out, and, and I'm okay... She wasn't there to kill, but was instead there to sacrifice self. You might say that the killing was the mere mechanics of her war, while her sacrifice of self was the essence of it. She figured it out.

Lastly, re the "wrong", when do you want me to judge, along the way or after it all played out? Along the way the answer is that she wasn't true to herself or Riley, that much is certain. But at the end of the day, or season 5, what can anyone say, including Riley? Fine, she "wronged" him. She atoned by dying for him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I love Riley, but he was the one who did the most wrong in the relationship.

Buffy was busy with being there for her family and forgot about being there for Riley. So he should have said that they needed a break or that they should end things for now. But he was practically cheating on her, getting pleasure somewhere else. Or maybe it should be compared to drugaddiction or something. Point is, he did something that he knew she would disapprove of. I call that betrayl and I don't think Buffy deserved that.

He should have honest with her. Just because she hurt him by not paying enough attention to him or by not loving him, whichever that bothered him the most, doesn't mean that Riley should have done that to Buffy.

I'm not saying that it's unforgivable, but I don't remember him saying that he was sorry for the bloodsucking.

 

[cryptwarmer]

They both acted in some pig headed ways, they were both human, but in the end I think they were just not well suited to one another. Buffy had the security of the earth on her plate, as well as all the closer to home issues of her new sister and her ill mother.

Riley was all involved with the very questionable Dr Walsh, the Initiative, etc. He fell for some things and believed in some causes that were not in the world's best interest. Then, when his heart issue came up, he refused to have it dealt with. He's wanting her to depend on him, but he's willing to die rather than give up the rush of being super macho guy. I can see why she held back, Riley wasn't nearly as stable as people like to make him out to be, nor as honest.

 

[wehappyfew]

OH, OH! I GOT IT!! Xander called him convenient. YAY ME!

whoops. didn't read that you had resolved the issue. my apologies.

 

[LadyLavinia]

They both acted in some pig headed ways, they were both human, but in the end I think they were just not well suited to one another. Buffy had the security of the earth on her plate, as well as all the closer to home issues of her new sister and her ill mother.

Riley was all involved with the very questionable Dr Walsh, the Initiative, etc. He fell for some things and believed in some causes that were not in the world's best interest. Then, when his heart issue came up, he refused to have it dealt with. He's wanting her to depend on him, but he's willing to die rather than give up the rush of being super macho guy. I can see why she held back, Riley wasn't nearly as stable as people like to make him out to be, nor as honest.

I find this post curious. You claim that both of them were in the wrong and then you go to such lengths to point out Riley's flaws and mistakes.

Okay. I'll do the opposite. I'll say that they were both wrong and point out Buffy's flaws and mistakes.

One, Riley is a competent demon hunter. Regardless of whether he had the extra strength or not. This was certainly proven in "Fool For Love". Instead of acknowledging this, Buffy behaved in the worst macho way possible and treated Riley like fine china. She even insisted that the Scoobies help him search for the vamp that had staked her . . . despite the fact that he was a better demon hunter/slayer than any of them. If I were Riley, I would be insulted.

You criticized Riley for placing his belief in the Initiative. Well, I'm criticizing Buffy for continuing in a lifestyle that had its origins in supernatural rape. She did this after learning that the First Slayer had been supernaturally raped by those three Shamans with the demon essence. Why would she do that? She went through a lot of trouble to distance herself from the Watcher's Council, yet she continued to do their bidding, despite her apparent dislike of slaying. Curious.

Riley DID NOT want Buffy to depend on him. Riley DID NOT want Buffy to shut him out . . . which she was doing.

Riley wasn't stable? Neither was Buffy, if one took a good, long hard look at her at the time.

 

[Lemon]

I think Riley was mostly in the wrong in the relationship. If I were to put myself in that situation, as Buffy, I wouldn't have seen it coming either really. He didn't communicate when he felt insecure or anything...and then he just started changing. I don't know why he couldn't really handle Buffy being stronger than he was.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think Riley was mostly in the wrong in the relationship. If I were to put myself in that situation, as Buffy, I wouldn't have seen it coming either really. He didn't communicate when he felt insecure or anything...and then he just started changing. I don't know why he couldn't really handle Buffy being stronger than he was.

Riley has managed to handle Buffy being stronger than him since he had first learned she was a Slayer back in Season 4.

What he could not handle was her pushing him away and treating him like fine china or a convenient bed warmer. Riley should have communicated the problems he was having with her behavior toward him. He failed until it was too late. But Buffy is at fault as well. Like Riley, she had failed to communicate with him . . . and treated him as a tool she could use to convince herself that she's normal.

I realize that Riley is unpopular with many fans and it is easier to blame him for the Buffy/Riley breakup, simply because he is not the show's main character. But they were both to blame, as far as I'm concerned. On an equal basis.

Everyone wants to blame Riley's masculinity. Frankly, I find this attitude too easy to accept, just because the show's main character is a female and it is supposed to be about female empowerment. If feminists want women to be on an equal footing with men, they need to realize that women are just as flawed as men and are capable of making some serious mistakes. I refuse to buy this "women are power, men are flawed" mentality that a lot of feminists adopt.

 

[AmongFriends]

I blame Angel and his hair. 😛 But I think it was Buffy. She kind of pushed him away and whenever she needed him, she summoned him back. If it was Angel, she would have been completely different. She never treated Riley like an "Angel" (like what did there?)

 

[itsxpaperdoll]

I think it was Buffy, mainly. What with her keeping him at a distance and everything. Riley felt that she didn't really love him because she shut him out, especially during s5. He dealt with it completely the wrong way, though. Because he also started to shut her out. I can't say it was a shame, cos I was happy to see him go. But I think both were to blame, Buffy probably a little more than Riley.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I blame Angel and his hair. 😛 But I think it was Buffy. She kind of pushed him away and whenever she needed him, she summoned him back. If it was Angel, she would have been completely different. She never treated Riley like an "Angel" (like what did there?)

Very well said... She was always pushing him away, I think partly because she wanted to "protect" him because he didn't have any super powers. She said this wasn't a big deal to her but the only other relationships she had real passion about in the show were with guys who were clearly Super.

 

[pegolas]

meh. Riley was a tool.

The, "I'm leaving and you have a very limited amount of time to figure out exactly what you want, and if it's me, then you better come running. And did I mention that you need to figure it out FAST? Cause I'm like, leaving tonight, ok? I know that you're going through some stuff right now, but your mom's tumor or whatever - it's irrelevant. I also know that you're the chosen one all all that (and I can't possibly know how that surrounds you and suffocates you), and that you'll probably die pretty young, and alone in a graveyard or something - not because you signed up for the gig, but because it was thrust upon you, but really, ME ME ME ME ME!!" sealed it for me.

Not that I have any strong opinions on the subject or anything.

 

[Kana]

meh. Riley was a tool.

The, "I'm leaving and you have a very limited amount of time to figure out exactly what you want, and if it's me, then you better come running. And did I mention that you need to figure it out FAST? Cause I'm like, leaving tonight, ok? I know that you're going through some stuff right now, but your mom's tumor or whatever - it's irrelevant. I also know that you're the chosen one all all that (and I can't possibly know how that surrounds you and suffocates you), and that you'll probably die pretty young, and alone in a graveyard or something - not because you signed up for the gig, but because it was thrust upon you, but really, ME ME ME ME ME!!" sealed it for me.

Not that I have any strong opinions on the subject or anything.

Yeah, I can really see both sides to this. I think both of them were too wrapped up with their issues to see the other's point of view. Riley's ultimatum was "Love me or let me go", not "Forgive me or let me go". This is why Xander cannot understand why Buffy wouldn't go after him. If Buffy didn't really need him enough, then there wasn't any point in him sticking around but if that wasn't the case, Xander's pointing out then, there is no debate, "Go after him!".

 

[anyatara]

To be honest, I think on some level, they were both in the the wrong.
Buffy...Well, I won't take it as far as to say she didn't love Riley, but she didn't care about him. Not really. She was too concerned with Joyce and Dawn and being the slayer and fighting Glory...She didn't have much time for Riley, and she didn't really try to make time. So for not trying and not telling him much of what was going on, I guess she was kind of in the wrong.

But Riley had the whole ordeal with Buffy being stronger than him, and he didn't like it. Which in my book makes me hate him. 😉 And he left without giving Buffy much chance. And he was still involved with the Inititive even after he left. So, I think he's in the wrong, too.

So, I think, both of them.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Very well said... She was always pushing him away, I think partly because she wanted to "protect" him because he didn't have any super powers.

I found that attitude a little bigoted and narrow-minded of her. Buffy seemed to think that Riley's success as a demon fighter had more to do with the experiments that Walsh had conducted on him than his ability to fight demons. I can only wonder if Whedon had allowed the audience to realize that Buffy's viewpoint was wrong by allowing Riley to successfully deal with the vampire that had wounded her in "Fool For Love" and the vamp nest without the Scoobies' help.

In fact, I have never understood the current thinking that Buffy always needed her friends by her side to deal with supernatural bad guys.

Characters like Spike and many of the series' fans claimed that Buffy was successful as a Slayer because she allowed the Scoobies to fight with her. Yet, the Scoobies were with Kendra when the latter was killed by Drusilla in "Becoming, Part 1". They were ineffective in that episode. Buffy had to do without the Scoobies' help on more than one occasion - especially in her fight against Angel in "Becoming, Part 2" and her successful snatch of the scythe in "Touched". And in "Fool For Love", Riley certainly proved that he didn't need the Scoobies.

I suspect that deep down, Buffy never really knew Riley or even bothered to get to know him. I believe that she had viewed him as some kind of object - her Joe Normal guy - so that she could pretend that there was something normal and safe for her to cling to. I think that by S5, Riley knew her better than she knew him. But . . . Riley had failed to communicate with her at a time when he needed to.

But Riley had the whole ordeal with Buffy being stronger than him, and he didn't like it.

Why do people try to turn Riley into some kind of sexist? I never thought he was one. He seemed very comfortable in taking orders from Maggie Walsh. If anything, I think he was too inclined to put her on a pedestal. I think that Riley was a little disconcerted by Buffy being stronger than him . . . at first. But as I recall from S4, he seemed more shaken by Buffy's challenge to Dr. Walsh's authority and the authority of the U.S. Army, later in the season. As for S5, I believe he began to suspect that Buffy never really loved him and may have used him as rebound. This seemed to have become more apparent, when Buffy began treating him like a china doll following his operation in "Out of My Mind". He should have said something or protested against her treatment of him. Instead, Riley made one of his biggest mistakes and remained silent until it was too late.

And if there is one thing I have to admire about Riley, he has never tried to make choices for Buffy, using "the greater good" as an excuse. This is something that both Giles and Angel have been guilty of.

 

[Kana]

I found that attitude a little bigoted and narrow-minded of her. Buffy seemed to think that Riley's success as a demon fighter had more to do with the experiments that Walsh had conducted on him than his ability to fight demons. I can only wonder if Whedon had allowed the audience to realize that Buffy's viewpoint was wrong by allowing Riley to successfully deal with the vampire that had wounded her in "Fool For Love" and the vamp nest without the Scoobies' help.

In fact, I have never understood the current thinking that Buffy always needed her friends by her side to deal with supernatural bad guys.

Characters like Spike and many of the series' fans claimed that Buffy was successful as a Slayer because she allowed the Scoobies to fight with her. Yet, the Scoobies were with Kendra when the latter was killed by Drusilla in "Becoming, Part 1". They were ineffective in that episode. Buffy had to do without the Scoobies' help on more than one occasion - especially in her fight against Angel in "Becoming, Part 2" and her successful snatch of the scythe in "Touched". And in "Fool For Love", Riley certainly proved that he didn't need the Scoobies.

I suspect that deep down, Buffy never really knew Riley or even bothered to get to know him. I believe that she had viewed him as some kind of object - her Joe Normal guy - so that she could pretend that there was something normal and safe for her to cling to. I think that by S5, Riley knew her better than she knew him. But . . . Riley had failed to communicate with her at a time when he needed to.




Why do people try to turn Riley into some kind of sexist? I never thought he was one. He seemed very comfortable in taking orders from Maggie Walsh. If anything, I think he was too inclined to put her on a pedestal. I think that Riley was a little disconcerted by Buffy being stronger than him . . . at first. But as I recall from S4, he seemed more shaken by Buffy's challenge to Dr. Walsh's authority and the authority of the U.S. Army, later in the season. As for S5, I believe he began to suspect that Buffy never really loved him and may have used him as rebound. This seemed to have become more apparent, when Buffy began treating him like a china doll following his operation in "Out of My Mind". He should have said something or protested against her treatment of him. Instead, Riley made one of his biggest mistakes and remained silent until it was too late.

And if there is one thing I have to admire about Riley, he has never tried to make choices for Buffy, using "the greater good" as an excuse. This is something that both Giles and Angel have been guilty of.

Tried to give you karma but apparently I need to spread the love.

I actually think it was train wreck waiting to happen but I don't think it was totally unavoidable. I originally thought Spike was being sarcastic when he said Riley was the lucky guy but maybe he was being more insightful than I originally gave him credit for. At that time Spike really didn't have a chance, his only chance was to disparage the competition. Riley could have 'been' with her in way. gtg.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think that Riley could have remained with Buffy . . . as a friend. I never thought he was suited for her. My belief has nothing to do with Spike's comment that Riley wasn't "enough monster" for Buffy. Frankly, I found that comment to be a load of horsesh*t. When you have characters like Cordelia, Xander, Giles, Robin Wood, Warren Mears and Willow proving how monstrous they could be, I find it hard to believe that Riley could never be that monstrous. Of course he could. His little forays with vamp whores were only a mild example of how dark he could be. I have never judged any character's capacity for monstrous behavior, based upon what he or she might be. Human, vampire or other demon . . . anyone can be a monster if given the chance.

But I think that both Riley and Buffy were not the types to openly expose their feelings to others. Nor were they the types that easily invited others to express feelings to them. Emotionally, I have always thought that Buffy and Riley were too similar. They lacked any emotional balance they could have given each other. They could have made great friends. But I could never see them in a long lasting relationship.

 

[Jordan]

I think Riley's romp with the vampires were his way off obtaining darkness to appeal more to Buffy's attraction to dark men. I mean that was estabalished a few times. I agree with you that the pair were never suited though.

I mean at the time Buffy was going through a lot, but we must remember that anything that could have SERIOUSLY affected their relationship happened way after Into The Woods. I mean stuff like her mum dying and all. Although she discovered Dawn was her non sister in No Place Like Home , she was bound to be a little pre-occupied even then. Riley was just victim to his own ignorance IMO.

He wanted her, and he wanted her. And he played games to get her. When really it was obvious that a relationship couldn't have been a worse thing for Buffy during Season 5.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I mean at the time Buffy was going through a lot, but we must remember that anything that could have SERIOUSLY affected their relationship happened way after Into The Woods. I mean stuff like her mum dying and all. Although she discovered Dawn was her non sister in No Place Like Home , she was bound to be a little pre-occupied even then. Riley was just victim to his own ignorance IMO.

Buffy wasn't pre-occupied enough to remain silent about her fears regarding Joyce and Dawn. She opened up to Spike about them. And Riley found out in the episode following "Fool For Love". I really cannot see how that is his fault.