Who was the better fighter? Angel or Spike

This is a hard one... hmm I think Spike gave it his all because he enjoyed fighting and was quite fearless and he moves quick, plus he fought for his soul instead of getting 'a happy' and hey he saved the world so that makes him better in my books. 😉

Saying this Angel seemed to have more substance and didnt get knocked about as much as Spike i guess because hes bigger (even though he seemed to need more TLC for his cuts and bruises). As Angelus hes a pretty good fighter.
 
Angel.

In the early Buffy seasons he fought like someone who grew up fighting, but had no real skills, in later seasons and on his own show he was shown to be a master of many fighting styles, weapons etc.

Spike on the other hand always fought recklessly and spent his run on Buffy getting knocked around. He was never seen doing any moves close to what Angel was doing over in LA. Wasn't there an episode where Spike got his ass kicked by a random demon in a bar and left out in the streets bleeding on the ground? (season 4 or 5)
 
In the earlier seasons, I would have to say that Angel was the better fighter, due mostly to the fact that Angelus had bullied, belittled, and belabored "Willy" to the point that he simply gave up before the fight had truly gotten started. Some time around Season 5, Spike began to gain a little more self confidence, but got his biggest boost in Season 7, From then on, with no more intimidation to have to contend with, Spike could face Angel on much more even terms. Who's the greater fighter now? It depends on which one makes the first fatal mistake. They're that evenly matched. It's like Rocky Balboa and Apollo Creed. Rocky fights great, but Apollo's a great fighter.
 
I enjoy watching Angel fight more than Spike, and Angel has been shot/stabbed so many times and continues to carry on which is pretty incredible. But then again, Spike has faced five slayers (and killed two of them), and is still standing.
 
Spike eventually beats Angel for the Cup of Sorrows (Angel, season 5) and Angel acknowledges that Spike has beaten him and that Spike may be the legitimate subject of the Shanshu prophecy.

Spike has also killed two slayers whereas Angel has not.

Angel's early dominance of Spike gets reversed in Angel season 5.
 
As a leader, a commander, a battle general, I think that Angel far exceeds Spike. But as a pure fighter, I'd give the slight edge to Spike. After all, he does beat Angel pretty cleanly in S5 ("Destiny" I think), which when you think about it, is pretty rare. It isn't often the hero of a show gets beaten and loses straight up without scoring a comeback win, which Angel doesn't get.

However, earlier in the Buffy seasons, I think they're pretty equal. In S1 of Angel, when Spike chases the ring of Amora to L.A., Angel beats him pretty handily when Spike first shows up.

The big thing that makes me say Spike though is that Buffy has never conclusively beaten Spike. However, she has beaten Angel. As to what [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] said however, I never really got the notion that Spike was afraid of Angel, or at least, not by the time he debuts in S2. Right from the get-go he seems to think of himself as Angel's equal or superior.
 
Always Bangel said:
The big thing that makes me say Spike though is that Buffy has never conclusively beaten Spike. However, she has beaten Angel. As to what [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] said however, I never really got the notion that Spike was afraid of Angel, or at least, not by the time he debuts in S2. Right from the get-go he seems to think of himself as Angel's equal or superior.
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Intimidation isn't exactly he same thing as fear, or at least not what I intended it to be. My point is that for the better part of a century, Spike was told, either directly or by attitude, by the most important people in his life, Dru, Darla, and Angelus himself, that he wasn't and never would be as good (or bad, in this case) as Angelus. After hearing that long enough, even Spike, on a subconscious level, begins to believe it, even though he very verbally tries to deny the fact.

I've seen this a few times in the martial arts. A student may eventually surpass his instructor in skill, speed, strength, and even technical knowledge, but when the sparring gear goes on, the student just can't seem to get past the years long conditioning that he is facing his superior (it certainly doesn't do much to overcome that attitude when the instructor is traditionally referred to as "Master") It doesn't happen in every case, or even commonly, but it DOES happen on occasion, and it's one of the hardest obstacles for some competitors to overcome, and why some martial artists will avoid competing against their instructors.

(I realize that that's a poor explanation for what I;m trying to say, but it's the best that I can come up with)
 
Ethan Reigns said:
Spike eventually beats Angel for the Cup of Sorrows (Angel, season 5) and Angel acknowledges that Spike has beaten him and that Spike may be the legitimate subject of the Shanshu prophecy.

Spike has also killed two slayers whereas Angel has not.

Angel's early dominance of Spike gets reversed in Angel season 5.
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Angel stated that Spike won because he wanted the cup more than he did. It was pure drive for that goal. Any other day of the week Angel whoops Spike, as shown by Angel flooring Spike in seconds in You're Welcome and then making Spike, Lorne, Wesley, and Gunn look like rookies when they attacked him (with full intent on killing Angel, shown by Lorne barely missing Angel's heart with the arrow) in the second last episode.
 
Aloverssoulz said:
Angel stated that Spike won because he wanted the cup more than he did. It was pure drive for that goal. Any other day of the week Angel whoops Spike, as shown by Angel flooring Spike in seconds in You're Welcome and then making Spike, Lorne, Wesley, and Gunn look like rookies when they attacked him (with full intent on killing Angel, shown by Lorne barely missing Angel's heart with the arrow) in the second last episode.
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This is an interesting post. I'd forgotten about Angel wiping the floor with the rest of his team in the final arc. By the end of "Not Fade Away" Angel is more powerful than he's ever been. I can't really remember their fight in "You're Welcome" though. Better fighter or not, there aren't many people I'd pick ahead of Angel when it comes time to throw down.

One note about Spike "wanting it more" though. You're right, Angel does say that, but the fact is, that's part of fighting. If you can't gear yourself up enough to win, all the talent in the world won't save you. I mean, as a boxing guy, I've seen that numerous times. Look at the end of Mike Tyson's career. With the ability he had, he never should have lost a fight. But he had such a complete lack of motivation towards the end of his days in the ring that it didn't matter. So if Spike can "want it more" than Angel and win the fight because of that, then he's a better fighter. However, I do realize that aberrations do happen, and Angel could have had a bad day. That happens to.
 
Always Bangel said:
This is an interesting post. I'd forgotten about Angel wiping the floor with the rest of his team in the final arc. By the end of "Not Fade Away" Angel is more powerful than he's ever been. I can't really remember their fight in "You're Welcome" though. Better fighter or not, there aren't many people I'd pick ahead of Angel when it comes time to throw down.

One note about Spike "wanting it more" though. You're right, Angel does say that, but the fact is, that's part of fighting. If you can't gear yourself up enough to win, all the talent in the world won't save you. I mean, as a boxing guy, I've seen that numerous times. Look at the end of Mike Tyson's career. With the ability he had, he never should have lost a fight. But he had such a complete lack of motivation towards the end of his days in the ring that it didn't matter. So if Spike can "want it more" than Angel and win the fight because of that, then he's a better fighter. However, I do realize that aberrations do happen, and Angel could have had a bad day. That happens to.
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The fight in You're Welcome wasn't much of one. It's the scene where Spike bites Cordy to see if she's human, but then Angel shows up and they scrap a little. Spike gets Angel in a headlock, brags about their big fight, to which Angel does a flip, picks Spike up and slams him on the ground.

"SPIKE
(puts Angel in a headlock)
You took me on and lost, remember, old man?

ANGEL
Touch Cordelia again...
(breaks free of Spike's grip, lifts Spike into the air and throws Spike to the ground)
get ready for our very last rematch."

Their fight in Destiny showed us that Angel had lost a lot of his desire to be human again. Going back to Hell Bound:

"ANGEL
I never escaped from hell. All I got was a short reprieve. Not even sure how I managed that.

SPIKE
Oh, put your martyr away, Mahatma. Fred told me all about your great, shining prophecy. Pile up all your good deeds and get the big brass ring handed to you like everything else.

ANGEL
(turns to face Spike)
Except for one small catch. The prophecy's a bunch of bull. They all are. Nothing's written in stone or fated to happen, Spike. You save the world, you end up running an evil law firm.

SPIKE
Or playin' Casper with one foot in the fryer.

ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

SPIKE
Then why even bother?
(scoffs)
Try to do the right thing, make a difference...

ANGEL
What else are we gonna do?

SPIKE
So that's it, then. I really am going to burn.

ANGEL
Welcome to the club."

Angel was just going through the motions for a lot of season 5. He wanted the cup because Spike wanted it more than he wanted for himself. If Angel felt the way he did in Destiny the way he did back in Judgment the fight would have lasted about as long as all the other fights throughout the series.

The events of season 4 (losing Connor and Cordy) messed Angel up real bad. It's probably why you think Angel is so much stronger at the end of season 5. I think it's because Cordy brought back the Angel we knew throughout the show, it's not that Angel got stronger than Spike and everyone randomly in the last two episodes, it's that Angel went back to normal when he received the vision from Cordy. He regained his sense of self and re-found his purpose in life.
 
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R
Robb Stark
Awesome post.
Better fighter... Angel or Spike... for me it comes down to two words: deliberation and passion.

Angel is a better fighter when it comes to deliberation
Spike is a better fighter when it comes to passion, Spike has a passion for the fight that Angel just can't compete with but Angel is better at keeping his head cool whereas Spike can get a little bit rash.

Essentially for me it's like discussing who's the best fighter out of Faith and Buffy... in both questions I would have to say neither. They're on equal footing, none is better, just different

(also in my opinion one has to take into consideration the circumstances of whatever fight they're in, they're not immune to off-days or having the odds stacked either for or against them... fighting skills is just a part of the equation 🙂)
 
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