Who was The Master

[ILLYRIAN]

When Spike was in the basement of the new Sunnydale High, when he was visited by the Mayor, Glorificus, Adam, The Master.
Was it just accidental that The Masters first words were, In the beginning? Could it be that those words implied a specific meaning, that The Master was indeed the Devil.

The show portrayed the First as the Evil
So could it be that The Master was the Devil?

 

[Xin Rong]

When Spike was in the basement of the new Sunnydale High, when he was visited by the Mayor, Glorificus, Adam, The Master.
Was it just accidental that The Masters first words were, In the beginning? Could it be that those words implied a specific meaning, that The Master was indeed the Devil.

The show portrayed the First as the Evil
So could it be that The Master was the Devil?

What do you mean by the devil? The devil is a Christian notion, and the master definitely does not fit that description.

I think it was more of an in show reference, as in, in the beginning of Buffy, I was the bad guy.

The Master is a vampire, vampires are post demon world/hell on earth. The devil is a ruler of demons, the head demon if you will, if you were going to assign that role to anyone it would be Illyria, and even then it is overly procrustean.

The devil is not a real presence within the Buffyverse, it would be imposing our own views into the show, with no real textual reference to support it. It would be the equivalent of saying that The Master is Jadis the White Witch from the Chronicles of Narnia.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Is that what you think, that the Devil is a Christian notion? My answer would be no.
The Christians put a name to what was already there, you should have access to the knowledge that Christianity knew/ knows about what was there before they (the Christians) said they were the first. A lot of their churches were built on sites where pagans did their worshipping, to gain the pagans powers..
Were you aware that Salisbury Cathedral was only built because it's first site (north of there) in Seram, (I'm not sure of its spelling but the name sounds like that) the cathedral was said to be haunted so much so that users were to scared to go there, hence the move to Salisbury.
In the show vampires may well have been the first demons, so a vampire could have been the first one.
Illyria came to this world from another world so she could not have been the earth based Devil.
I'd agree the devil is not a Buffyverse character, but the First was, and that is the Buffyverse version of the evil whose leader is named the Devil (by Christians)

 

[Xin Rong]

Is that what you think, that the Devil is a Christian notion? My answer would be no.
The Christians put a name to what was already there, you should have access to the knowledge that Christianity knew/ knows about what was there before they (the Christians) said they were the first. A lot of their churches were built on sites where pagans did their worshipping, to gain the pagans powers..
Were you aware that Salisbury Cathedral was only built because it's first site (north of there) in Seram, (I'm not sure of its spelling but the name sounds like that) the cathedral was said to be haunted so much so that users were to scared to go there, hence the move to Salisbury.
In the show vampires may well have been the first demons, so a vampire could have been the first one.
Illyria came to this world from another world so she could not have been the earth based Devil.
I'd agree the devil is not a Buffyverse character, but the First was, and that is the Buffyverse version of the evil whose leader is named the Devil (by Christians)

The fact that Christian churches were built on sites where pagans did their worshiping does not have anything to do with the devil, pagans do not have a singular devil, they have multiple demonic entities.

Vampires were not the first demons in the show, quite the opposite, they were a hybrid of earlier demons.

We do not know that Illyria came to this World from another, she has the power to visit other worlds/dimensions, but it is often implied she originates here.

If the Devil is the First, as you seem to suggest in your closing comment, then obviously the Master is not the devil, the First is?

 

[Robb Stark]

I've always thought a Master-themed one-shot comic issue would be really interesting (it probably wouldn't sell that well, but in the world of Robb, it would be totally awesome 😛). I don't really know why, but I've always liked The Master. I just find him to be a really fun villain whenever I re-watch S1. The idea of this demonic vampire king stalking Sunnydale was always a cool storyline.

I feel like if The Master had popped up a few seasons later, when the show had picked up steam a bit more, and had a full season of character development, then he would have been a really, really awesome bad guy.

As to who he was? It's obviously left completely open to interpretation, but I kind of like picturing him as a totally evil English crusader or something like that, from that time period. The Master always struck me as a character with a few light religious undertones, and that would fit that.

 

[Xin Rong]

I've always thought a Master-themed one-shot comic issue would be really interesting (it probably wouldn't sell that well, but in the world of Robb, it would be totally awesome 😛). I don't really know why, but I've always liked The Master. I just find him to be a really fun villain whenever I re-watch S1. The idea of this demonic vampire king stalking Sunnydale was always a cool storyline.

I feel like if The Master had popped up a few seasons later, when the show had picked up steam a bit more, and had a full season of character development, then he would have been a really, really awesome bad guy.

As to who he was? It's obviously left completely open to interpretation, but I kind of like picturing him as a totally evil English crusader or something like that, from that time period. The Master always struck me as a character with a few light religious undertones, and that would fit that.

Yes, the master definitely had religious connotations in his vernacular, and his interaction with Darla before he turned her seem to suggest he was religious in some way. I would love to see a canonical back story to the Master

 

[Black Eye Guy]

The Master was Heinrich Joseph Nest, and was "only" over 600 years old.

Dont think that makes him a likely candidate to be the Devil.

It's way more likely The First is the Devil, or where the idea of the devil came from.

 

[Xin Rong]

The Master was Heinrich Joseph Nest, and was "only" over 600 years old.

Dont think that makes him a likely candidate to be the Devil.

It's way more likely The First is the Devil, or where the idea of the devil came from.

Exactly, out of interest where did you acquire his name?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Exactly, out of interest where did you acquire his name?

The shooting script for Wlecome to the Hellmouth, it's in the notes written by Whedon

Something breaks the surface of the liquid. Something rises.

It is THE MASTER, the most powerful of vampires. Born Heinrich Joseph Nest (some six hundred years ago,) he wears a vaguely SS-like outfit.

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/001_scri.html

It's also mentioned in the official guidebooks for the series The Watchers Guide vol 1

 

[Robb Stark]

The shooting script for Wlecome to the Hellmouth, it's in the notes written by Whedon



http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/001_scri.html

It's also mentioned in the official guidebooks for the series The Watchers Guide vol 1

I'd heard this as well, and it brings me to a question I've actually wondered at for a while now:

Is it canon? I'm asking honestly. Because while you are absolutely correct in that being in the shooting script, does that matter? Is stuff that got cut from the main show considered canon?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'd heard this as well, and it brings me to a question I've actually wondered at for a while now:

Is it canon? I'm asking honestly. Because while you are absolutely correct in that being in the shooting script, does that matter? Is stuff that got cut from the main show considered canon?

Yeah I guess it's 'canonness' is very open for debate. There is a line in the speech Buffy gives to the potentials in Chosen were she says that both her and Faith have to die for the next slayer to be called, I dont think people think of it as canon, it's a real murky area.
I'm more willing to accept that is the Master name, just cuz it was in background notes rather then something that was cut, like the line by Buffy was cut from Chosen, but this was just additional information, it was never a said line in the script that was cut from airing.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

The Master bears more resemblance to an uber-vamp than a normal vampire, imo, which would lend some credibility to the view that he's old as Hell (if you'll pardon the pun) and a potential candidate for where we get the Devil from. I'm not saying he is an uber-vamp but perhaps he's been around so long he's gone that way a bit. Notice we never see him out of vamp-face? It's my belief he's just stuck that way because of how long he's been a vampire. Again - given how old Angel is and that he's still beautiful and human-looking - that must make the Master sooooooooooo old.
Not sure how these assumptions on the Master's age fit with established canon, but they're my canon, so to speak. I've never noticed anything in the series that contradicts it so I'll continue to look at it that way, and by extension I can see how the Master=Devil thing could work.
Having said that, the "in the beginning" line was, I'm sure, a reference to BTVS's beginnings and the First is more like the Devil as I understand the concept, but I've no problem with the idea of the First informing some views of the Devil and the Master informing others, which wouldn't necessarily contradict the notes from the shooting script.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5421]Xin Rong[/MENTION]

Yes, the master definitely had religious connotations in his vernacular, and his interaction with Darla before he turned her seem to suggest he was religious in some way.

Well, he is a religious leader after all. The Order of Aurelius is a cult that bears a lot of similarities to Christianity. Members of the order worship the the old ones ( deity ) and await their return ( the second coming ) as foretold by Aurelius ( the prophet ) and written in the writings of Aurelius ( holy book ) The members follow a moral code and partake in crusades, rituals, traditions and prayers, also to recognized saints, like Saint Vigeous. The Master in no devil - he's a pope.

I would love to see a canonical back story to the Master

I'd love to see it as well. Was he sired by Aurelius? ( that would somewhat explain Dru's prophetic visions ) Was he a watcher? He knows that slayers are vulnerable to hypnosis and that's not exactly public knowledge. Who defeated him in 1937 destroying half of the town in the process? 'Cause I think that it's fair to assume that it wasn't just a natural earthquake.

Yeah, Master's pretty interesting, most of what happens in this franchise can be traced back to him.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

It's obviously left completely open to interpretation, but I kind of like picturing him as a totally evil English crusader or something like that, from that time period.

His name is supposedly Heinrich Joseph Nest - sounds German but hey, he still might have been a crusader.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

^ Interesting watcher theory.

It walks the line of a canon grey area, but there is a non-canon book that has a story about a Slayer being sired by the Master, and it being such a disgrace to the council that they erased all mention of her.

The books not canon (Actually it might have been a comic, one of DA early non-canon ones) but the Slayer is included in Tales of the Slayer and in Season 8, making her at least an offical slayer, whether the story of her turning is canon or not isn't clear though.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12655]Still a Scoobie[/MENTION]

It's my belief he's just stuck that way because of how long he's been a vampire.

It's kinda canon. Very old vampires no longer resemble humans. Check out Kakistos, he's got perma-vamp face and freaking hooves!

 

[Lyri]

( that would somewhat explain Dru's prophetic visions )

Sorry, I don't understand this. Explain it how? Dru had visions before she became a vampire. It's the whole reason Darla points her out to Angelus, because she 'has the sight'.

Actually, there was a rumor once that Dru had been the Slayer at the time. I think it came from here, actually, when we were wondering if Angelus had ever killed a Slayer. But I don't see any evidence to back that up other than the visions.

^ Interesting watcher theory.

It walks the line of a canon grey area, but there is a non-canon book that has a story about a Slayer being sired by the Master, and it being such a disgrace to the council that they erased all mention of her.

The books not canon (Actually it might have been a comic, one of DA early non-canon ones) but the Slayer is included in Tales of the Slayer and in Season 8, making her at least an offical slayer, whether the story of her turning is canon or not isn't clear though.

Which Slayer is this? I didn't read many of the old comics, and the only Vampire Slayer Vampire I can recall from the books was...something beginning with 'C'? Cassandra, Cecilia...I think there was a thing where she changed her name every time she moved, but always beginning with a 'C'.

Damn...what was that book?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

It's a comic - "False Memories".

the Slayer is included in Tales of the Slayer and in Season 8, making her at least an official slayer, whether the story of her turning is canon or not isn't clear though.

Exactly.

being such a disgrace to the council that they erased all mention of her

I think that the watchers did that mostly to keep other slayers from following Yuki. She drank the master's blood because she didn't want to die ( I am the missing vampire slayer. Or was. Until I was bitten. Until I drank. Until he turned me. Some of us have a desire to die. Some of us don't. ) Slayers fight and die. Well, this is a way out. This is freedom.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------
[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Sorry, I don't understand this. Explain it how? Dru had visions before she became a vampire. It's the whole reason Darla points her out to Angelus, because she 'has the sight'.

Well, Aurelius is the original guy with visions, a prophet. If he sired The Master then you can trace Dru's talents down the bloodline right back to him. I know, complete wank and since Dru supposedly had visions before she was sired it also doesn't make much sense, but hey.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

[MENTION=12655]Still a Scoobie[/MENTION]


It's kinda canon. Very old vampires no longer resemble humans. Check out Kakistos, he's got perma-vamp face and freaking hooves!

Yeah, I thought there was something in my semi-theory, thanks. Although Dracula might disagree with me, I can't remember his age in the Buffyverse but something in the back of my mind says he was turned a long time ago and yet he doesn't look too weird.

 

[fitz1980]

[MENTION=12655]Still a Scoobie[/MENTION]


It's kinda canon. Very old vampires no longer resemble humans. Check out Kakistos, he's got perma-vamp face and freaking hooves!

Darla even says it to Angel in the ATS ep Darla. During the flashback to Angelus' first meeting with The Master Darla says that "he's past the curse of human features" and than he says that few have lived as long as him.

 

[fitz1980]

I'd heard this as well, and it brings me to a question I've actually wondered at for a while now:

Is it canon? I'm asking honestly. Because while you are absolutely correct in that being in the shooting script, does that matter? Is stuff that got cut from the main show considered canon?

I think the general rule on shows with thick back story is that script notes and stuff is canon as long as it doesn't contradict what's on the screen or published page. So if Joss & co decide to do a comic book about the Master's past that contradicts some old script notes from years ago the new comic is canon.