Who Was The REAL Doctor?

[MinwaraYana]

I think the point of this episode is, to show that Spike hasn't changed and it caused Buffy to end the relationship with him. The looks on his face when Buffy found out that he was The Doctor was like a man who got caught red-handed.

 

[Mumrik]

Oh this is a real question? I haven't seen the episode in maybe a year but I have to say I thought they hit you over the head with 'The Doctor is Spike' at the end there?

Yet there is no actual proof. Yes, we get told how it apparently went down and yes, we get hit over the head that Spike is the Doctor but this is simply not good storytelling. I'm not saying this because I'm a Spike fan - I'm not - but because I am a fan of good storytelling.
There are too many plot holes and too many character inconsistencies on Spike's part in regard to what happened earlier in the series to excuse this episode - except if it was supposed to get us thinking and not swallow everything we get served. It obviously worked.

 

[Tranquillity]

I posted this in another thread a couple of days ago, but it might add to the fun here...

From the Shooting Script (http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/115_scri.html)

BUFFY
So, you're what, a bounty hunter
or something? I notice you're
pretty good with that knife.

RILEY
Oh, Sam's a doctor. Joined our
squad straight out of medical school.

They walk off together, Buffy drags behind a moment...

BUFFY
(under her breath)
Well, isn't that just perfect.

I think we have a new suspect 😉

 

[Flannen]

I posted this in another thread a couple of days ago, but it might add to the fun here...

From the Shooting Script (http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/115_scri.html)



I think we have a new suspect 😉

I hope this is a joke 😉

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I posted this in another thread a couple of days ago, but it might add to the fun here...

From the Shooting Script (http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/115_scri.html)



I think we have a new suspect 😉

Ohhhh, WOW. Well, that could certainly imply that Sam was indeed behind it. I think that whole facade with her being cool with Buffy seemed forced, anyhow.

 

[Paramour]

Yeah I find the Warren idea a bit strange. It just doesn't seem like something he'd get involved. He was one of the nerds then, they were preoccupied with their own silly ideas and Warren didn't get so crazy until Seeing Red. It just doesn't seem like something he'd do, to me, anyway.

He built himself a robot girlfriend then abandoned it when he met someone else, raised a demon to rob a bank then sent it after Buffy to kill her, accidentally turned her invisible with his ray gun then tried to kill her with it, turned his ex girlfriend into his sex slave then killed her and tricked Buffy into thinking she did it, then tried to make her think she was in a mental institution so she would kill all her friends and go catatonic. All before Seeing Red. I'd say that's a bit on the crazy side and I wouldn't put a scheme like that past him.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

He built himself a robot girlfriend then abandoned it when he met someone else, raised a demon to rob a bank then sent it after Buffy to kill her, accidentally turned her invisible with his ray gun then tried to kill her with it, turned his ex girlfriend into his sex slave then killed her and tricked Buffy into thinking she did it, then tried to make her think she was in a mental institution so she would kill all her friends and go catatonic. All before Seeing Red. I'd say that's a bit on the crazy side and I wouldn't put a scheme like that past him.

Agreed. Warren was far more capable then I think we gave him credit for. He really was a competent and serious adversary for Buffy. Too bad it took Buffy getting seriously wounded and Tara ending up dead for the gang to take him seriously.

What I liked about Warren was that he was evil, and apparently had no remorse or humanity in him - yet he was human. That makes him all the more interesting in my opinion.

And of course, lets not forget that Warren (as a result of shooting Tara) was solely responsible for Dark Willow.

 

[Flannen]

He built himself a robot girlfriend then abandoned it when he met someone else, raised a demon to rob a bank then sent it after Buffy to kill her, accidentally turned her invisible with his ray gun then tried to kill her with it, turned his ex girlfriend into his sex slave then killed her and tricked Buffy into thinking she did it, then tried to make her think she was in a mental institution so she would kill all her friends and go catatonic. All before Seeing Red. I'd say that's a bit on the crazy side and I wouldn't put a scheme like that past him.

Fair enough points, but these are all extreme ways of expressing quite mundane, or more normal, things. Robot girlfriend and sex slaves equate to the desire for sexual fulfilment, robbing a bank is the desire for unbelievable riches. The freeze and invisibility ray and demon raising just show his level of interest in that sort of thing. It was never portrayed THAT seriously and the events involving Buffy are simply the actions of the 'villain'.

But being 'The Doctor' is just too, I don't know how to describe it really. It was too much about the bigger picture, not about fulfilling his 'needs' (money, sex etc) or killing Buffy which as the villain (whether the Big Bad or not) he's kind of obliged to do. Warren was never about getting involved in something 'big'. I think that's what I mean.

And in reference to the Sam thing? Are we being serious? Could she not have just been, I don't know, a DOCTOR? This is reading way too far into it for me, that I really cannot take even begin to take it seriously. Sorry!

 

[ubi4soft]

I really don't see Spike working with Warren, he despised the Trio and they were afraid of Spike (didn't have a camera in his crypt when they were watching Buffy)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I am a fan of good storytelling.

And therein lies the problem; I think they just said, 'oh well' about the plotholes rather than really explaining what was happening and how it happened.

---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

(http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/115_scri.html)
I think we have a new suspect 😉

Or it could be that that was removed so as NOT to allow the fan to question it and take it at face value that Spike was the doctor and there was no grand conspiracy involved. If they would have left that it would have sparked more debate and got away from the point of the episode.. the thing Spike said time and time again 'did you forget I was evil' How many times did he say that when the Scoobies went to him for help? This was to illustrate to the fan how much of a bad guy he still was to make his transformation in the following season even more of The Heros Journey.

 

[Paramour]

Fair enough points, but these are all extreme ways of expressing quite mundane, or more normal, things. Robot girlfriend and sex slaves equate to the desire for sexual fulfilment, robbing a bank is the desire for unbelievable riches. The freeze and invisibility ray and demon raising just show his level of interest in that sort of thing. It was never portrayed THAT seriously and the events involving Buffy are simply the actions of the 'villain'.

But being 'The Doctor' is just too, I don't know how to describe it really. It was too much about the bigger picture, not about fulfilling his 'needs' (money, sex etc) or killing Buffy which as the villain (whether the Big Bad or not) he's kind of obliged to do. Warren was never about getting involved in something 'big'. I think that's what I mean.

Exactly. They are extreme. Whoever The Doctor was, was looking to sell the eggs on the black market to make a lot of money. Warren doesn't try to obtain the things he wants the way a normal person would. If a normal person needs money they get a job, they don't rob banks. I won't get too graphic in describing the things normal people do who don't have a willing partner to satisfy their sexual needs, but they don't involve robots, mind control, and attempted rape. Warren was smart, resourceful, and deeply disturbed. I'm not saying I'm convinced he was The Doctor, but it's not out of the realm of reason to say he could have been. Seems a lot more likely than Spike being the mastermind behind it all.

 

[Flannen]

Exactly. They are extreme. Whoever The Doctor was, was looking to sell the eggs on the black market to make a lot of money. Warren doesn't try to obtain the things he wants the way a normal person would. If a normal person needs money they get a job, they don't rob banks. I won't get too graphic in describing the things normal people do who don't have a willing partner to satisfy their sexual needs, but they don't involve robots, mind control, and attempted rape. Warren was smart, resourceful, and deeply disturbed. I'm not saying I'm convinced he was The Doctor, but it's not out of the realm of reason to say he could have been. Seems a lot more likely than Spike being the mastermind behind it all.

I meant exaggerated as opposed to extreme. Just couldn't think of the right word earlier. I mean they are exaggerated ways of expressing human need and adapted to fit into a supernatural world.

No, most people do go get a job instead of robbing a bank, or seek sexual satisfaction from another human partner, but some people rob banks and I'm sure some people seek other ways of sexual fulfilment close to, or along the lines of Warren. Warren could just be one of those 'few' who doesn't do it 'normally'.

 

[Paramour]

I meant exaggerated as opposed to extreme. Just couldn't think of the right word earlier. I mean they are exaggerated ways of expressing human need and adapted to fit into a supernatural world.

Well selling demon eggs on the black market to make money could be described as such so why don't you feel that's something Warren would do?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I really don't see Spike working with Warren, he despised the Trio and they were afraid of Spike (didn't have a camera in his crypt when they were watching Buffy)

I don't think the Trio was afraid of Spike. Not when he was chipped, at least. Warren had made him a bot for him, Andrew had a crush on him, and Jonathan thought he was "cool".

To play Devil's advocate: Yes, Spike did despise the Trio - but think about it. Spike needed money - for you know, cigarettes and blood and to help Buffy out (even though she refused his help) It's not like Spike had any other means of income. After all, before he was chipped, it was implied he'd just steal money from his victims, or make deals with other demons in exchange for cash. He had stopped that type of behavior in an attempt to change. So, he's left broke. He has gone to Warren before for "help" (to have the Buffybot made, for instance.) I honestly don't see it as being totally out of left field for Warren to have approached him, and offered him money in exchange for hiding the eggs. Spike says to Buffy in this episode, "You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same." Is this admitting he was responsible for the eggs? That he is indeed the "Doctor"? Not necessarily. Really, we can't prove who the Doctor was. Could be him, Sam, Riley, or Warren. The ambiguity is delightful, isn't it?

Yet, I also see it as being highly plausible that Riley planted the eggs there, to set Spike up. I agree that it was out of character, at that point for Spike to be involved in that.

So, assuming Spike's innocent? I'm going with Sam and or Sam/Riley or Warren.

It's just....I don't get this episode. Why leave it so up in the air like this? Like they really thought all of us would believe it was Spike.

Despite, if it is Spike, they needed him to do that in order to be the catalyst for Buffy breaking it off with him. Sure, she left him because she claimed she didn't love him, but she also left him because she knew he hadn't changed. He was still a soulless vampire, and using him was killing her. Just like they needed Spike's attempted rape and the guilt that ensued to be the catalyst that would propel Spike to go and get a soul.

Regardless of who was responsible for the planting of the demon eggs, it had the desired effect: Buffy thought it was Spike, broke it off with him, and Riley got what he wanted - for Buffy to leave Spike.

Stupid Riley.

So, I guess what I'm saying is as much as I'd like it not have been Spike - I can see the arguments against him being the Doctor and the arguments for. I guess we'll never know. I wonder if Douglas Petrie had anything to say regarding this.

EDIT: I would also highly suggest everyone whom hasn't had a chance yet to read that article that was linked to earlier. It's really interesting. The author brings up some great points.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yet, I also see it as being highly plausible that Riley planted the eggs there, to set Spike up.

But if Riley planted the eggs there, dont you think he would plant a fridge to keep them cool too? Or do you think his getting over on Spike was worth the risk of them hatching and overrunning Sunnydale and possibly causing Buffys death in the process?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

But if Riley planted the eggs there, dont you think he would plant a fridge to keep them cool too? Or do you think his getting over on Spike was worth the risk of them hatching and overrunning Sunnydale and possibly causing Buffys death in the process?

Great points. Yet, I don't want to discount the idea that Spike could have been set up. There is evidence to suggest it.

So, if you DO think Spike was responsible for the eggs - where did he get them from? And why did he have them? For what purpose?

 

[white avenger]

But if Riley planted the eggs there, dont you think he would plant a fridge to keep them cool too? Or do you think his getting over on Spike was worth the risk of them hatching and overrunning Sunnydale and possibly causing Buffys death in the process?

If Riley were the one who planted the eggs in Spike's underground chamber, he would have a very good idea of just when they would begin to hatch and time his appearance for that precise moment, which is exactly how events played out. Assuming that he was actually following Buffy and Sam, he would have known that Buffy was in the crypt with Spike, then simply waited for the eggs to thaw or warm or whatever and begin hatching.

I still like Warren for being the Doctor, but that in no way eliminates Riley and Sam from being co-conspirators with him in a plot to trick Buffy into breaking up with Spike, who was, in addition to being her lover, the person most capable of covering her back in time of trouble. Those two factors alone would be sufficient reason to form an alliance with the ultimate goal of separating Buffy and Spike. The Trio would reduce the Slayer's available back up power, and Riley would carry out his final threat to Spike ("If you ever go near Buffy, I'll kill you.")

As far as money is concerned, I truly doubt that Spike had any financial worries. Remember the treasure chamber where he found the Gem of Amara? He had to have stashed some of that away somewhere. He had been fending for himself and Drusilla for at least a century and a half. He would have had to have money in ready quantities available at a moment's notice. Far more likely, Spike was doing exactly what he said that he was doing. Holding the eggs for a friend, no questions asked (Clem or Willie come to mind, but there would have probably been other demons and people who Spike was on at least civil conditions with) isn't really all that implausible. In fact,it might have been just Spike trying to be more worthy of Buffy's affections by helping someone in need. It's quite possible that he had no idea exactly what kind of eggs he was watching. Maybe he just thought that someone wanted a REALLY BIG omelet.

My major candidate for the Doctor is still Warren. He was always totally unfeeling of others, manipulative, and just plain sadistic, as illustrated by the way that he constantly belittled Jonathan and lied to Andrew. In simple terms, Warren was pure complete evil, and his greatest talent was getting others to do his dirty work and clean up the messes that he was constantly making.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Assuming that he was actually following Buffy and Sam, he would have known that Buffy was in the crypt with Spike, then simply waited for the eggs to thaw or warm or whatever and begin hatching.

Yes, but how would he know that Buffy would actually be in the crypt when the eggs were hatching. If Buffy had decided to keep staking (no pun intended) out the graveyard then Riley would have went to the crypt on his own, thus his masterplan would be foiled. Neither Riley nor Sam suggested she go to the crypt, so any plan about getting her at the crypt at that time seems unlikely to me.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

So, if you DO think Spike was responsible for the eggs - where did he get them from? And why did he have them? For what purpose?

I am uncertain he was smart enough to procure the eggs on his own, yet the show seemed to imply he was. As to the purpose, he was going to sell them. In regards to his 'just holding them for a friend' I know when I was busted as a wee child with a bag of drugs I said I was 'just holding it for a friend' as well.

 

[sosa lola]

but because I am a fan of good storytelling.

Me, too. It was a lousy storytelling, but other than Spike, no one fits the role of the Doctor. No one that makes sense that is. The story shows that it's Spike, so that's how it is.

 

[Tranquillity]

Me, too. It was a lousy storytelling, but other than Spike, no one fits the role of the Doctor. No one that makes sense that is. The story shows that it's Spike, so that's how it is.

Nothing is ever just 'that's how it is' with Buffy. That's what makes it such a great show. Plainly others, myself included, interpret the episode as not so cut and dried as you feel it is. I think there is way more going on in this episode than just the surface layer story. I think it makes it better, more interesting to look deeper. I can't be satisfied with the explanation of Spike as the Doctor and then have Buffy do nothing at all about it. So I look for alternatives to help it make sense.