Who Was The REAL Doctor?

[Flannen]

Nothing is ever just 'that's how it is' with Buffy. That's what makes it such a great show. Plainly others, myself included, interpret the episode as not so cut and dried as you feel it is. I think there is way more going on in this episode than just the surface layer story. I think it makes it better, more interesting to look deeper. I can't be satisfied with the explanation of Spike as the Doctor and then have Buffy do nothing at all about it. So I look for alternatives to help it make sense.

I think BtVS sometimes can be very much 'that's how it is', its up to the audience to go further. Lol, and some of us are satisfied Spike is the doctor and think it's much more unsatisfying to move towards conspiracies and stuff. It's just up to the individual viewer I think. We can take it at face value or we can think it's all one massive metaphor with a totally different message. If I had seen more, what I consider to be plausible, evidence I might have started to think otherwise but so far no other theory has convinced me that Spike isn't the doctor.

But there's still no right or wrong, just like there's no right or wrong when talking about literature. Just swings and roundabouts. (I like that turn of phrase! 😉)

 

[sosa lola]

Nothing is ever just 'that's how it is' with Buffy. That's what makes it such a great show. Plainly others, myself included, interpret the episode as not so cut and dried as you feel it is. I think there is way more going on in this episode than just the surface layer story. I think it makes it better, more interesting to look deeper. I can't be satisfied with the explanation of Spike as the Doctor and then have Buffy do nothing at all about it. So I look for alternatives to help it make sense.

I'd like to believe that Xander had covered up for Dawn in OMWF because he didn't know that it was Warren who did it, but that's not the case. IMO, neither is this one.

"Remember, after all, that "The Doctor", as such, is a plot device to express the incorrigibility of soulless Spike to A) contrast him with Riley, B) make Buffy realize she needed to be away from him, and C) to set up his turn later in the season. And NONE of those obvious and indisputible narrative purposes is accomplished at all if Spike is falsely accused," said by KingofCretins.

I admit this plot device was done poorly (just like the "Xander summoning Sweet" one). However, other than Spike, none of the other characters as the Doctor makes sense, or more sense. Let's face it, all those pointing fingers at Riley just do it 'cause they hate his guts. Warren was never mentioned in the episode. There was no hint that any of the Scoobies did it.

I think it's in character for Spike to be the Doctor. He wanted to get money for Buffy, so she wouldn't need to work at the DMP. He's still soulless, so it doesn't matter how he gets it, as long as he does.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think this is another one of the those Questions the Buffyverse poses that will never, ever be "settled" upon. Like, DID BUFFY LOVE SPIKE? or WHO SUMMONED SWEET? or DID BUFFY ALLOW SPIKE TO TIE HER UP? or SHOULD ANGEL HAVE TOLD BUFFY ABOUT THE EVENTS OF IWRY?

The fact of that matter is that some fans don't and won't ever believe Spike is the Doctor, myself included. Like Flannen said, all interpretations are valid - why not? In the end, this is fiction. That's just the way it is.

We seem to always return to these arguments and we all stand our ground everytime. I mean, I've never heard a Bangel all the sudden be like, "Oh my God! I've seen the light! Spuffy is true love!" 😉 And vice versa.

It will never change. And this is a good thing - this constant, never ending discussion - because it keeps the fandom alive.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Also, this just occurred to me;

So, Spike being the Doctor was important to the plot and for the reasons stated above, I get that. One being for the reason for Buffys realization that he hadn't changed and the catalyst for her breaking it off with him. But, regardless if Spike were the doctor or not, Buffy thought he was - and that's what mattered, right? Perhaps Spikes comment regarding "You know what I am. You've always known" was an admit of defeat. Think about it; would Buffy have even believed him if he'd tried to deny it? It's not like she expected anything more. That's why she not wasn't surprised or angry when Riley shows her the eggs.

 

[white avenger]

So, Spike being the Doctor was important to the plot and for the reasons stated above, I get that. One being for the reason for Buffys realization that he hadn't changed and the catalyst for her breaking it off with him. But, regardless if Spike were the doctor or not, Buffy thought he was - and that's what mattered, right? Perhaps Spikes comment regarding "You know what I am. You've always known" was an admit of defeat. Think about it; would Buffy have even believed him if he'd tried to deny it? It's not like she expected anything more. That's why she not wasn't surprised or angry when Riley shows her the eggs.

In point of fact, Buffy DIDN'T believe that Spike was the Doctor. ("Spike can't be the Doctor. He's too stupid,") But, as far as we know, she never let him give her any kind of explanation as to why he really did have the eggs. It's something that should have been followed up on later, but, for whatever reason, wasn't.

I think that this episode was probably written backwards. Joss came in one morning, and told his writers, "Okay, here's what I want: Buffy comes to Spike and says, 'I can't love you, and it's killing me. Goodbye...William.' Now, write me an episode that leads us up to that point. Just write me a stand alone episode that gets us there." and then walked out the door.

And then the writers, all hopped up on too much caffeine and sugar, started brainstorming, tossing out one absurd idea after another, and somebody said, "Hey, you know how Buffy and Spike caught Riley with the vampire ho? Well, what if we just reverse it. Riley comes back to town..."

"Oh! Oh! Oh! And he's MARRIED!"

"Will somebody shut Sam up while we're trying to be creative...No, wait a minute, that just might work if we..."

And the rest is history. But it's also crappy story telling. It relies too much on coincidence and leaves too many, at least for some of us, unanswered questions and unresolved situations. It helped to set up for the events beginning with "Seeing Red" and culminating with Spike regaining his soul, and for that I'm grateful. I just wish that they could have used fewer elements and more details.

 

[Tranquillity]

Not for one minute am I saying that Spike wasn't involved - but I do believe him when he says he's holding them for a 'friend' so, in my book that doesn't make him the actual Doctor. That makes him a middle man. The doctor is probably some unseen demon with his own agenda and way more resources than Spike has at his disposal, I just think its fun to blame Riley 🙂

A) contrast him with Riley, B) make Buffy realize she needed to be away from him, and C) to set up his turn later in the season. And NONE of those obvious and indisputible narrative purposes is accomplished at all if Spike is falsely accused," said by KingofCretins

I don't agree. I think these are all accomplished whether Spike is the Doctor or not. He was involved and thus it serves as a reminder to Buffy as to what Spike really is, giving her the impetus to break up with him. I'll say it again, if he really was the Doctor then she should (and would) have staked him.

 

[Kana]

I don't agree. I think these are all accomplished whether Spike is the Doctor or not. He was involved and thus it serves as a reminder to Buffy as to what Spike really is, giving her the impetus to break up with him. I'll say it again, if he really was the Doctor then she should (and would) have staked him.

I doubt it. If she didn't stake him for simply being a soulless vampire or attempting to rape her...

However whether Spike is the doctor or not, Buffy's main gripe is using someone who loves her whether they are soulless or not. At that point she couldn't love Spike, not fully or at the very least she couldn't reconcile herself with her feeling drawn to him and that's fair enough. She actually does him a favour by breaking up with him.

 

[Kana]

Comments on this post
Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: He tried to rape her after "As You Were."

The chronology is irrelevent. She would have been more likely to stake him for being soulless or trying to rape her. If she didn't stake him for those things, she wouldn't have necessarily staked him if he were the Doctor.

 

[white avenger]

The chronology is irrelevent. She would have been more likely to stake him for being soulless or trying to rape her. If she didn't stake him for those things, she wouldn't have necessarily staked him if he were the Doctor.

Maybe yes, and maybe no. Though there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Spike was at best a dupe, at worst a partner, of the Doctor, I think that Buffy would have been much more apt to stake him for that, if she really believed him guilty, than for him attempting to rape her. My logic might be flawed to some people's way of thinking, but I believe that she saw the attempted rape as a personal matter between the two of them, and nothing that would make Spike in any way a menace to others. Otherwise, she would never have tried to leave Dawn with him for protection almost immediately afterward.

Attempting to sell the Suvolte eggs to international terrorists, however, would have been endangering the general public. She, as the Slayer and, therefore, protector of humanity from anything that might go bump in the night, could not have let even an attempt at such a crime to go unpunished. She would have no choice but to stake Spike for something like that.

Unless, of course, her actual feelings for him were, despite her statements to the contrary, far greater than she was willing to openly admit, so great that she would be willing to overlook any evil doing on his part, even to the point of betraying her very duty as the Slayer. But, then, that would mean that she would have to care more for Spike, even without a soul and doing evil things, than she ever did for Angel under the same circumstances. Score another one for the Spuffies.

 

[Flannen]

Maybe yes, and maybe no. Though there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Spike was at best a dupe, at worst a partner, of the Doctor, I think that Buffy would have been much more apt to stake him for that, if she really believed him guilty, than for him attempting to rape her. My logic might be flawed to some people's way of thinking, but I believe that she saw the attempted rape as a personal matter between the two of them, and nothing that would make Spike in any way a menace to others. Otherwise, she would never have tried to leave Dawn with him for protection almost immediately afterward.

Attempting to sell the Suvolte eggs to international terrorists, however, would have been endangering the general public. She, as the Slayer and, therefore, protector of humanity from anything that might go bump in the night, could not have let even an attempt at such a crime to go unpunished. She would have no choice but to stake Spike for something like that.

Unless, of course, her actual feelings for him were, despite her statements to the contrary, far greater than she was willing to openly admit, so great that she would be willing to overlook any evil doing on his part, even to the point of betraying her very duty as the Slayer. But, then, that would mean that she would have to care more for Spike, even without a soul and doing evil things, than she ever did for Angel under the same circumstances. Score another one for the Spuffies.

Firstly, a potential rapist, is just that. A potential rapist. Just because we'd only seen him attempt to do it Buffy does not mean that Spike is not harmful to others because of it. Yet again, Spike's action here is played down, just like Joss did himself which was one very, very bad move on Joss' part.
However, I do see where you're coming from. But I still think that a rape attempt would warrant any woman wanting to do some serious damage to the person that tried to do it. The fact that is personal makes this even more possible, not less.

But as to Buffy's reaction, I think she reacts in a similar way to both of these incidences and it has nothing to do with the fact she was willing to forget her duties as a Slayer because Spike was so awesome, (sorry WA, goal disallowed, that pesky offside rule! 😛). For me, in both situations she kinda goes in one of those catatonic like states. She's actually so disgusted with the situation and the realisation/recognition of it that she doesn't know how to react which results in her, unfortunately, not reacting at all. She is so taken aback by Spike's attempted rape, that like most rape victims, she doesn't think logically or rationally, she's just sickened, and similarly by Riley discovering her escapades with Spike, the reality of what she has been doing hits and she is once again disgusted. She has finally been confronted with her behaviour and her own feelings of worthlessness and that again puts her in this place of disgust. She may be a Slayer, but she's also a human and a human being does not think like a logical person who goes and does the right thing, that deep down they know should do, because in situations like the two above, how you feel about yourself comes first.

 

[white avenger]

As long as the chip was intact and working properly, the only person who Spike could harm directly was Buffy. He was no danger whatsoever to anyone else, hence my conclusion that Buffy would see that as a totally personal issue between the two of them and as such something that she could overlook as far as her Slayer duties were concerned. And please note that I said "AS FAR AS HER SLAYER DUTIES WERE CONCERNED." I am in no way whatsoever trying to belittle, defend, or excuse Spike's actions in "Seeing Red."

If she believed that Spike were truly the Doctor, however, that would make him an actual menace to society once more, exactly like Angelus had been, and, as the Slayer, would have no choice but to destroy him. That is my main reason for believing that Buffy never believed that Spike was the Doctor.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't know Spike was a real doctor. I mean Warren is to stupid to do something like that, but back then Spike cared about Buffy, so why would he go around her back? I think it was some ordinary demon in the game, someone go doesn't matter.

 

[Miss Kitty F]

I just watched this episode for the first time yesterday. I've gotta say that the Doctor is either Spike, or he was telling the truth and was storing the eggs for someone. Most likely he was storing them for some demon (or human) creep that was never seen on the show. Maybe to repay a gambling debt?

 

[Oriphiel]

Yeah, judging by the time between his confrontation with Buffy about her work and his being busted with the eggs, I have to conclude that he was holding the eggs for the real Doctor. There just isn't enough time for him to have created an international demon egg empire, especially since Spike is more of the "smash 'n grab" kind of leader. Even when he was leading his evil posse against Buffy in the earlier seasons, he had that vamp with the glasses do all of the thinking. Leading evil corporations is more Angel's turf =)

 

[white avenger]

Assume that Spike's "friend" was Clem, who impressed me as rather gullible and almost childlike in his trust and innocence. Spike might very well have taken the eggs from him with the intention of "dealing" (as in "beating the crap out of")with whoever the real Doctor was for getting one of his few real friends involved in anything like that. That would be completely in character for Spike.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Firstly, a potential rapist, is just that. A potential rapist. Just because we'd only seen him attempt to do it Buffy does not mean that Spike is not harmful to others because of it. Yet again, Spike's action here is played down, just like Joss did himself which was one very, very bad move on Joss' part.
However, I do see where you're coming from. But I still think that a rape attempt would warrant any woman wanting to do some serious damage to the person that tried to do it. The fact that is personal makes this even more possible, not less.

But as to Buffy's reaction, I think she reacts in a similar way to both of these incidences and it has nothing to do with the fact she was willing to forget her duties as a Slayer because Spike was so awesome, (sorry WA, goal disallowed, that pesky offside rule! 😛). For me, in both situations she kinda goes in one of those catatonic like states. She's actually so disgusted with the situation and the realisation/recognition of it that she doesn't know how to react which results in her, unfortunately, not reacting at all. She is so taken aback by Spike's attempted rape, that like most rape victims, she doesn't think logically or rationally, she's just sickened, and similarly by Riley discovering her escapades with Spike, the reality of what she has been doing hits and she is once again disgusted. She has finally been confronted with her behaviour and her own feelings of worthlessness and that again puts her in this place of disgust. She may be a Slayer, but she's also a human and a human being does not think like a logical person who goes and does the right thing, that deep down they know should do, because in situations like the two above, how you feel about yourself comes first.

I think white avenger's theory makes a lot of sense, actually. About it being a "personal confrontation between them. Think about how upset she was when Xander told Dawn about it. She didn't want to talk about it, she just wanted to pretend it didn't happen. It would sure explain her willingness to leave Dawn in his care after the indicent. I can't imagine her doing that if she thought there was any chance he'd hurt her.

---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

As long as the chip was intact and working properly, the only person who Spike could harm directly was Buffy. He was no danger whatsoever to anyone else, hence my conclusion that Buffy would see that as a totally personal issue between the two of them and as such something that she could overlook as far as her Slayer duties were concerned. And please note that I said "AS FAR AS HER SLAYER DUTIES WERE CONCERNED." I am in no way whatsoever trying to belittle, defend, or excuse Spike's actions in "Seeing Red."

If she believed that Spike were truly the Doctor, however, that would make him an actual menace to society once more, exactly like Angelus had been, and, as the Slayer, would have no choice but to destroy him. That is my main reason for believing that Buffy never believed that Spike was the Doctor.

I agree. I also think Buffy didn't believe he was the Doctor. After all, she says "he's too stupid."

There is certainly evidence pointing to the fact that Spike wasn't in fact the actual DOCTOR. While I don't think it would have been out of character for Spike at this point in the season to be involved with a scheme like this (as someone mentioned, possibly to pay off his say, kitten debt with the loan shark) I do think it would have been completely out of character at this point for Spike to blatantly lie to Buffy's face. I believe him when he says he was holding them for a "friend", and this white avenger says, makes him the middle man, not the Doctor himself. I think he honestly had no idea what holding the eggs meant. Surely, whoever he was "holding" them for underplayed the important role they played in his or her "international" trade. I'm sure it was difficult to get Spike to even hold them in the first place.

I think this is just one of those little plot mishaps we'll always be arguing about. The episode is just badly written and badly executed. There are so many unanswered questions.

Do I believe Spike was the Doctor? No. Absolutely not, and no one can convince my otherwise. There's so way Spike was organized enough to pull off something like that. Do I believe him when he says he was "holding them for a friend"? Absolutely. Soulless as he was, I don't believe he was a liar. His comment to Buffy regarding "you know what I am. You've always known" suggests that yes, he was involved with the hiding of the eggs, that he hadn't changed.

Of course, there is evidence that suggests he wasn't the Doctor at all, that he was set up. For instance, why in the hell would Spike be PROTECTING demon eggs? We all know how much Spike hates other demons. Riley's convenient appearance in this episode also likens him as a suspect.

So, the debate rages on 😉

Basically, we'll never really have an answer. We're left to decide what we believe. Just because Riley said Spike was the Doctor certainly doesn't close the case for me, anyway.