Who's side would you have been on...?

[anyatara]

In Empty Places, the Scoobies and potentials all kicked Buffy out, and yeah, she was being a bit of a bitca [[My one time in life I get to use that word without people thinking I'm nuts...😀]], but she knew what she was doing, she was the slayer, she did care about everyone she just knew she was going to lose people in the battle. Faith isn't exactly leader material, either. I get where the others were coming from, sort of, but to be honest, if I'd have been stood in that room, I probably would have stuck up for Buffy...I mean, she was more experienced than everyone else right...? Feel free to disagree with me, just don't make me feel small and pathetic in the process, please 😛

 

[white avenger]

Buffy was their commander. They had recognized and accepted that up until that time, and had no reason to blame her for the events occurring in the vineyard. At the very most, any dissenters should have left and found their own base of operations instead of running Buffy out of the home she had worked and paid for ever since her mother's death ("Buffy, I love you, but this is my home too," to the contrary, Dawn had contributed not one red cent to the everyday expenses of maintaining "her" home, so should have had no say whatsoever in the argument). To be blunt as well as accurate, everyone else was, as Anya so accurately put it, "cannon fodder" at the worst, and subordinate advisers at the best. Buffy was the commander by right of both seniority and experience and had been accepted as such up until that moment. "When the going gets tough, the army deserts" isn't just a misquote, it's mutiny and desertion under fire, both offenses being punishable in wartime conditions by death, and no one could possibly believe that Sunnydale was anything less than a war zone at that time.

Of the entire group, the only one there who did the proper thing was Faith, by pointing out immediately that she had no desire whatsoever to replace Buffy as commander, and stepping into that role only to fill the vacuum left by their real leader. Of course, the concept of mutiny was so attractive to the group by then that when Faith led them into their second battle, resulting, as the first one had, in casualties, they were just as eager to oust her from the leader's role. Who, I wonder, would have been the third commander if Buffy hadn't returned?

 

[justanotherjen]

I would have sided with the Scoobies, not because I thought they were right in what they did but because I tend to follow the crowd (baaa, I'm such a sheep, lol). They had a point--Buffy didn't appear to be thinking clearly and was taking risks with their lives that they didn't agree on or seem to have any say in but they went about confronting her all wrong.

I would have been the one in the back mumbling about how wrong the whole thing was but not stopping Buffy from leaving and then reluctantly following Faith with as little conviction as I had given crazy Buffy.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

Good thread. Well, I have always hated this scene in season 7. I would've probably stuck up for her. I understand that every one in a while, leaders might need to be questioned about their thinking processes and execution of plans, but the questioning should not lead to an immediate overthrow of power. It should lead to much conversation.

If you remember, Buffy said she was willing to talk strategy and plans to help everyone through it. The other members of the group were the ones who hastily made the rash decision to listen to their fear instead of talking through the issue and working together.

 

[GATEGOD]

I would have walked out with Buffy. I've always believed the Scoobies were wrong, and when Spike came back and told them off it only drove home the point for me even more. I'm with Buffy.

 

[LilFirecracker]

I love faith (obviously lol) but i definitely would have sided with buffy. The whole situation just seemed to be handled awfully. First of all i didnt feel that they had the right to kick Buffy out because if it wasnt for her half of them wouldnt be alive! and second of all instead of kicking her out they could have just told her straight up that she was being kinda bitchy instead of acting so drastically. Also, that scene with spike was pretty awesome lol

 

[sosa lola]

I agree with this answer:

"When watching S7, I actually saw Buffy's banishment coming and was expecting a mutiny at some point later in the season. To be honest, I would've been dissappointed if nothing had happened because the whole season was building up to it. Like many others here, I think the scene itself was awkwardly written and less-than-perfectly executed but I think it had to happen given the way Buffy behaves during the season.

I'm not saying she had it coming really, or that it was totally her fault. Rather, she had to start leading a considerably larger group of people than she had before most of whom she didn't even know, and she didn't know how to deal with the situation so it led to her detaching herself from the others more and taking a superior position. Her attitude started irritating the people around her because I think she started increasingly clearly indicating by her behavior towards others that she's better than them and that they should just do whatever she says because she knows best. She probably did it subconsciously since it was exactly what she had been afraid of for a long time, according to her conversation with Holden in "Conversations with Dead People". All in all, I think Buffy is incredibly well and consistently written during S7, and though I did feel sorry for her in "Empty Places", I think it was bound to happen and in the end a good thing for Buffy herself.

Her dialogue in the end scene shows to me just how far she's come and why it was necessary that she'd have some perspective forced upon her. I don't think her plan to go back to the vineyard was that bad but the way she wasn't ready to consider or even hear what the others might have to say was so indiscreet and arrogant that it was bound to get a bad reaction. And when that reaction came she was utterly surprised that someone would question her ultimate leadership, even her friends who were supposed to know better. Her perception of the situation was extremely one-sided, just everyone betraying her when she had just been trying to do the job everyone had pushed onto her without a second thought. I don't feel it was her fault that she handled the new situation badly but it doesn't change the fact that she did.

Her line about Faith leading the others into a disaster is an especially cruel one since it basically means that Faith will inevitably fail no matter what she does and is a bad leader unlike Buffy herself. It's unfair because Faith hadn't actually promoted herself as the leader and still Buffy started blindly throwing such mean comments about her skills. Even so, she ignores the fact that she had just returned from leading everyone into a disaster herself. Of course it's a very natural thing to do, start blaming others as self-defence, but her comment must've stung Faith pretty hard in that situation. I also think the line embodies the way Buffy has become, instead of "The Slayer Who Has Friends", "The Slayer Who Has Lots Of People Living In Her House".

And while talking about Faith, I don't think for a second the others were suggesting that her right to be the leader was just as big as Buffy's was because they were ready to accept her as the leader. It was simply a way to prop up their criticism of Buffy, to have something concrete to stand up to her with.

As for the lack of apologies later on, I don't think the situation called for them. They might've not been completely okay with each other but I think Buffy had as much to apologize as the others, and so they could pretty much call it even since I believe that both parties started to understand what they had done wrong." by Arana.

 

[Fake Shemp]

yeah it was harsh but buffy needed that to happen to her, she would never have gotten over herself and moved forward otherwise imo

 

[Joyce Summers]

I think I would have ended up being compromise-y girl.

Buffy, in my opinion, was making the most sense. I'm a fighter by nature (not in a 'i'll pop your eyeballs for no reason' kinda way....haha) and so what she was saying reached me. It did make sense that there was something there and the only way they could turn everything round, get the upper hand, was to go there and get it.

However, last time she tried the go-get routine several of them died and poor Xander lost an eye, so I understand why they'd be so reluctant to go in guns blazing yet again.

So I would have stood up for Buffy when everyone started trying to out her, because she knows what she's doing, she is experienced, and like Xander said about how 'if you don't trust her then you can ride the little bus to battle'. Buffy is a leader, *the* leader in fact and following what she has to say is rarely the wrong thing to do.
But as Buffy was raring to go straight away I would have probably been like 'okay, so we do this but let's think this through properly'. Devise a strategy before going attacking all willy-nilly. Hehehe.

But I do think it was definitely a feel-good 'aha!' moment when after they kicked her out she's the one that saves their butts from the UberVamps with the shiny new axe-stake thing. Hehe

 

[November]

I think I am a wimp and would have been long gone from sunnydale before any of this happened!

 

[bob6666]

first buffy was getting child sorport for dawn
second she lost her job xander and maybe giles where paying the bills


you in charge becouse we want you to be, we dont want you in charge you not. that is how leadership works.

she want to go to the vien yard becouse she wanted to kill calab for hurting xander, who plan was supid, and they only kick her out becouse she said i wont stay if i not in charge.

 

[Allycat]

When this episode first came out, I was at a point were I sort of disliked the character of Buffy, so I cheered very hard when this happened. When I rewatched the whole series in like a month, I grew to love the character more and more, and I began to feel that what happened here was extremely unfair. The Scoobies hadn't the right to do it, because even if she'd made a wrong judgement call before, she'd been right about what to do so often and she had saved their lives time and again, that they just needed to have a little faith and give her the benefit of the doubt. The Potentials, not having been there very long and barely having any experience in the matter, shouldn't have a say in the matter at all.

 

[Joyce Summers]

The Potentials, not having been there very long and barely having any experience in the matter, shouldn't have a say in the matter at all.

That was my feeling. I mean I don't the situation would have escalated there as much as it did if it wasn't for the Potentials. If it had just been Buffy and the Scoobies they would have probably just ended up talking through it all, the problems, the disagreements etc. But the Potentials almost seemed to be egging the situation on, especially Rona. And I was thinking throughout the entire scene 'Hello? You've been here like three weeks. You're of no help whatsoever except for complaining, whining and getting scared. Only one or two of you can hit anything, Buffy and the others have been doing this way longer than you and know what they're doing so just shut up!'. Whoa, I really tuned into how I felt watching that scene then. But yes, it did get me very annoyed.

 

[Hello Cutie]

Ahh see this is where I get torn in two...

I mean, yeah Buffy was being a total B.I.T.C.H. and stuff, yet, its kinda her job.... she's not asked for everyone to rely on her, she's always been forced to lead, since day 1, so she takes it on and does the best she can... and yeah she was being hard on them, and maybe not necessarily taking their feelings into account and stuff, but thats what a leader does, separates themselves in order to lead better... being too emotionally involved clouds your judgement in cases like that.

But, saying that, if I was actually there (lets pretend for a moment I'm a potential, and so its my ass on the line here) I'd have probably kicked her out. In this senario all I'd be seeing is how she didn't care whether we lived or died, not really, at it was all about throwing us to the wolves, as it were, while we're scared of dying and everything that's out to get us.

Also, removing myself from it for a moment, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and throwing her out was probably one of the best things they could have done for her.. and ultimately for themselves!

The one other thing I have to add though, is I was totally disgusted when Dawn told her to leave... that girl is the most irritating character in Buffy... she's whiney, wimpy and altogether annoying... and then she goes and kicks her out... im sorry, who pays for her to live in the house?? Who's house is it really?? Cuz it sure as hell ain't Dawn... if I was Buffy, that'd be the worst bit of the whole thing, that her own little sister told her to leave, and her best friends and mentor didn't stop her.

 

[Blondie Bear]

first buffy was getting child sorport for dawn
second she lost her job xander and maybe giles where paying the bills


you in charge becouse we want you to be, we dont want you in charge you not. that is how leadership works.

she want to go to the vien yard becouse she wanted to kill calab for hurting xander, who plan was supid, and they only kick her out becouse she said i wont stay if i not in charge.

Okay, I had to do some deciphering here, but let me react to what I think I hear you saying.

"First, Buffy was getting child support for Dawn. Second, she lost her job; Xander and maybe Giles were paying the bills."

1. When does anyone say that Buffy's getting child support? Where would she be getting it from? I don't see Hank paying any child support; he's too busy "living the cliche" as Buffy said. And even if she was, that still doesn't mean that DAWN is contributing to household expenses.

2. By the time she lost her job, there was hardly anybody left in town to collect on bills, and again, we NEVER heard that Xander and/or Giles were pitching in to help with the expenses.

"You're in charge because we want you to be; if we don't want you in charge, you're not. That's how leadership works."

No. It's not. Any Poli-Sci class will teach you that.

"She wanted to go to the vineyard because she wanted to kill Caleb for hurting Xander, which was a stupid plan, and they only kick her out because she says 'I won't stay if I'm not in charge.'"

1. She wanted to go to the vineyard because she knew Caleb had something there that was important, NOT because of anything having to do with Xander.

2. She didn't say "I won't stay if I'm not in charge," she said, "I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster." Buffy knew Faith. How many times did we see Faith leap first and look later? She knew that Faith would do the same thing even with the Potentials, because Buffy had been leading them as if she was alone, too. Buffy KNEW it would be horrendous if Faith was given the reins, and she didn't want to see it happen. Dawn was the one who decided that meant Buffy had to leave.

I'm not saying Buffy was right about everything, but I AM saying that she didn't deserve the treatment she got from the Potentials, the Scoobies, and especially Dawn.

 

[Kean]

I was recenetly in a situation like this...ok so I wasn't trying to stop the apocolypse (thats next week😉) but I was in a position where I had to fall in line with a leader who in my opinon wasn't being very leadery at all. In fact several of us felt that she was totally abusing her power, that she hadn't a clue what she was doing, refused to listen to any and all suggestions and basically was shite!

Thing is, she wasn't any of those things. She was actually doing everything that she was supposed to do. Making the hard decisions, working the long hours and generally busting her arse off. She was being a leader, that was her job and it was Buffy's too.

I have said it before and I will say it again what happened in that episode was mutiny, plain and simple. Buffy had earned their trust and so much more and her friends and family left her down. They should have had her back not stuck knifes in it. They allowed the Potentials hysteria develope into something that very nearly killed them all.

I would have been with Buffy, same way I stuck by my leader-type-person in real life. I may not have liked the sitiation at the time but I knew its was the right thing to do. Buffy always always gets the job done. The scoobies knew that but they left her be hung out to dry.

 

[Kana]

I thought I'd posted here. I think I would have been on Faith's etc side. I wouldn't have been as vocal as say Rona but I'd have voiced my concerns. I've done that in recent times, in fact I was raised to think like that. I think Buffy did her best but that doesn't mean I'd necessarily follow her simply out of loyalty.

The great thing about Buffy in this episode is that, although some people think she was simply 'kicked out' or that she 'kicked herself out', I actually think there was something noble in Buffy stepping aside. She could have been really spiteful to Faith but she wasn't. This proves to me that Buffy really was thinking about the mission. She made mistakes, sure and I think on some level she couldn't even reconcile herself with her actions. Buffy is great hero but she's also a young human being and an emotional one at that. She's not perfect and this was a stressful situation. I cannot blame the others too much for the same reason. Those who didn't know Buffy didn't know if she could get them through alive. Those who did either wondered if Buffy's 'style' could cut it or werw worried that Buffy's instincts (her prime asset) were failing her now. I'd have to say I wouldn't be against Buffy as such but I'd be worried that her 'gut feelings' were in the best interest of the group.

 

[white avenger]

Miss K and I might not agree about some relationships within the Buffyverse, but on this issue, we are complete agreement. I would go so far as to point out that this was a military situation, everyone had accepted Buffy as their commander long before this episode, and mutiny under fire is a crime.

 

[Kana]

I'm not sure if it's as simple as that. It's not strictly speaking a military situation as I understand it. The Scoobies work in as a part of an 'informal organization'. Eversince Buffy quite the council, even though they have seemed to accept Buffy as the leader, there have been some issues with authority as Buffy has have never been formally appointed as a leader with strict insistence of the adherence of some kind of jurisdiction. This is not only an issue with the scoobies, what about Angel vs Buffy in Sanctuary? The only people who decide what is a 'crime' is the organization as a whole. Willow actually argued that Buffy being Slayer does automatically make her the boss. The issues of leadership were never straight foward or ultimately decided. Maybe they should have been, (like AI in a way). So it makes things a little murky.

 

[Kean]

Buffy had esteblished herself as leader of the Sunnydale crew, I really doubt anyone can argue that. I too would see it from a miliatry frame of mind but even if you don't a leader is still a leader, whether that be in an army or just a chairperson of a book club! Someon has to be incharge and make the decisions that nobody else is willing to make. Up until that point they had all taken orders from Buffy and worked off her cue. To me that shows thatb she was THE leader of that group and their dissent insiode that room was a mutiny, I can't call it anything else. The Potentials and the Scoobies made Buffy walk the plank.