Who's side would you have been on...?

[Bangelxx]

Believe it or not, I agreed more with the scoobies. Don't pounce on me here. She just was being too hard on the rest of the gang and it wasn't fair to them. as anya said " You're not better then us, you're just luckier than us." which is so true, in my opinion. Buffy seemed to think that she was in control, and that she didn't need to take into account, the feelings of others.
I also thought that the scoobies and Buffy could come up with more of a comprimise. I thought Buffy could accept the fact that others could lead as well. they didn't need to kick her out.
I really enjoyed this episode because it reflected real life in a lot of ways. Like fights with friends for example, which i can understand very well.

 

[white avenger]

This si getting to be argued almost as Bangel vs Spuffy, and with even less chance of ever being resolved. Okay, are we all in agreement that up until the moment in question, call it rebellion or revolution, it really doesn't matter, Buffy was accepted as the protector, the provider, and the person in charge of organizing and training all of the Potentials as Giles gathered and delivered them? (Nod your heads here. Thank you) Now, can we all agree that there was a real, honest to goodness war going on in Sunnydale between the forces of the First Evil and the defenders of all that is good, embodied by the aforementioned Slayer and her friends and charges? (Nod again here, please.) We're all in agreement so far, right. Good.

Now, by definition, a group of fighters joined together to fight a common foe constitute an army. Okay? (Another nod at this moment would be appreciated) Also by definition, the person responsible for and in charge of such an army is called the commander. Do you see how cleverly I have worked this around to supporting my argument? (Another nod, but you may begin to grumble a bit now) When an army rebels against or refuses to follow the orders of its commander, the act is, by definition, mutiny. In time of war, which it has been established that this is, anyone who commits mutiny may be punished by up to and including death.

That is the situation in "Empty Places." An army rebelled against the legal orders of its commander. Legal orders do not include any guarantee that everyone will come home alive, or even that anyone will come back. Legal orders are simply the orders that advance the cause for which the army fights. Leonidas gave legal orders when he ordered his men to hold the pass at Thermopalae. William Barrett Travis gave legal orders when he ordered his men to man the walls at the Alamo. Buffy Summers gave legal orders when she ordered her troops to follow her back to the vineyard. Commanders lead armies. Committees debate. Armies get the job done. Debaters do a lot of talking but do very little.

When Buffy left, her army deteriorated into a committee, and only succeeded in getting people killed or injured unnecessarily. Ironically, of all of the greatest critics of Buffy's command, the leaders of the mutiny, were safely back at Slayer Central when all of the death and destruction took place. They were probably still debating the situation. (There are scattered nods, a small amount of applause, and several staunce detractors most definitely grumbling. I even hear a growl or two.)

My rant is finished.

 

[CharmedSlayer85]

I don't know what I would have done cause I wasn't there, however I must say that I think the way they reacted was a little natural, afterall they followed Buffy to the vineyard and many of the potentials died and Xander lost his eye and she wanted to run back to that same location again, so of course the gang was a little taken aback, however of course you can say in hindsight she ended up being completely right, but I think her initial way of going about it was wrong.

 

[white avenger]

I don't know what I would have done cause I wasn't there, however I must say that I think the way they reacted was a little natural, afterall they followed Buffy to the vineyard and many of the potentials died and Xander lost his eye and she wanted to run back to that same location again, so of course the gang was a little taken aback, however of course you can say in hindsight she ended up being completely right, but I think her initial way of going about it was wrong.

The way that they felt was most certainly "natural," and I would even go so far as to say understandable. No sane person goes into harm's way willingly just for the sake of going. Those who do so go because of duty, the same duty that had compelled Buffy to do that exact same thing every day for the past seven years, almost always alone or with a single partner. The Potentials and Buffy's friends had for the most part sat safely at home while she did all of the fighting and took all of the risks, including a the time when she was almost killed by the Turok Han. Even after that, except for Spike, no one stepped up to say, "I'll cover your back," even her friends, who were experienced fighters.

One of the greatest detractors among the Potentials literally owed her life to Buffy going out, once more alone, to save her from the First Evil's Bringers. Remember, "Ding dong, the witch is dead"? More accurately, Rona might have said, "Ding dong, THE GIRL I OWE MY LIFE TO has been betrayed."

An army does not abandon an objective simply because the enemy repels the first assault, they attack again, and again, and keep on attacking until they are successful or until their commander adopts a new strategy. Yes, people may die, they almost certainly WILL die. That's where that thing called "duty" comes in. Were those Potentials too young to have to face such a fate? Buffy wasn't. Remember, at the tender age of 15, she did exactly that. She went, ALONE, to face a monster who she KNEW was going to kill her, because of that "duty" thing. It just keeps popping up.

The ultimate argument, of course, is that the betrayed commander was vindicated when she went back to the vineyard ALONE AS USUAL, and got what she was looking for.

Once more, I return to the single, final argument: armies are lead by commanders, not committees, and a military group is most certainly NOT a democracy.

 

[Bangelxx]

Yeah, I also agree with what WA said. When Rona said "ding dong the witch is dead" I just wanted to take an axe and chop off her head! Buffy saved her life for god's sake! Couldn't she be the least bit grateful for that?!

 

[bob6666]

the first think you have to remember she said know is watching my back. excempt spike i would be piss that the person i spent the last 7 years fighting with said that to me.

buffy did not know shit. she thought there was something at the vienyard. the fact the calb told her "i have somethink of yours" and then dare her to attack him after xander eye the scobies were right it was a trap.

it was stupied for them to go back there. with faith in charge or not.

buffy was not listening to anyone but spike. so they either kick her or or everybody leaves. i think they were hoping she would stop acting like the leader and talk to them. there only win when they are togeter.

those that say buffy right so much buffy **** us all the time. she is only right when she works with her friends

S1 xander saves her life
S2 spike, willow and xander lie save her life
s3 xander help when
S4 xander gile and willow and buffy beat adam
S5 xander willow spike giles and buffy beat goly
S6 xander

how many fight did they show where some save her life, so this i am alone crap is just wrong. faith is her equal is power willow is the most power witch in the world, giles has 40 years of deamon knowagele and anya has 1000 to not at least listen is stupid.

and yes it is true you lead becouse we want you to. if we belive you are makeing a bad desion we have the right that leader ship away. there have been many time in history a king general, or army leader had his men turn on him becosue is plan was so stupid they had know choice. what good is a leader when know will follow.

if buffy would have talk to them before hand it would never have good this far.

 

[Xin Rong]

I would have sided with the scoobies, one because I personally don't like taking orders and would especially hate to not have my opinion taken into account ever. I think many people have idealised buffy and thats why they think she was in the right, people are forgetting that shes human and can be fallible, shes not omnipotent.

Also in my eyes Giles should have had a more important role, he was the oldest and most knowledgeable about all thinks demonic, strategy etc etc afterall that is what he was trained to do. Afterall buffy may have had the most experience leading the scoobies against your run of the mill evil beings but in the past they always contributed and usually had pivatol roles to play and some great ideas, whereas as in this season buffy doesn't value their input at all and dismisses them regularly.

However the situation in series 7 was completely different, everyone was out of their element, buffy had no experience in leading such a lage group of people against an enemy as powerful as the first, no one did. But at least giles would have been intelligent and would have had necessary knowledge and training in leadership, at the very least he should have been considered more important in an advisory capacity, especially over someone like spike.

Also I think it was something that needed to happen, buffy had gone so long without being challenged and followed so readily that she had forgotten that a leader needed to be respected and that respect has to be earnt. You can't really blame the potentials for not immediately following her lead when all they knew of her were stories and to be honest she didnt really give them that much attention.

Buffy was behaving in the same way she had once hated the council behaving. She expected her authority to be recognised and conceded to because that was the way it had always been. And she saw the potentials and her friends objectively as tool and not as real people. I know everyones going to go mad at this but these are my thoughts and I personally think they are valid, well naturally lol

 

[white avenger]

Okay, when Buffy said that no one was watching her back, that was a poor choice of words. Everyone was watching her back, usually from a safe distance. Spike, on the other hand, was PROTECTING her back, helping her fight. Giles was usually away hunting other Potentials, Willow and Dawn were doing research, Xander was taking care of household repairs, and the Potentials were training and bitching about it.

As far as Buffy not knowing what was at the vineyard, you are right, she didn't, and she had no business bringing a bunch of inexperienced girls into that situation. Whose idea was that in the first place? Robin's, not Buffy's. After the first battle at the vineyard, Buffy realized that there actually was something there, otherwise the Bringers and Caleb would not be there guarding the place.m She was right. That's where the Scythe was. If she had not returned when she did, the First's people would have had it, and the rest of the season would have been us watching Caleb and the Bringers slaughter the Potentials, the Scoobies, the Watcher, the Slayers...I think you get the idea.

I halfway agree with your next statement. The dissenters should have left if they didn't want to follow orders. It was HER home, not theirs. They were guests, and guests can not evict the owner. And she was not ACTING like the leader, she WAS the leader.

As for how many times Buffy's life has been saved by her friends, she has saved each and every one of theirs at least a dozen times, so I think that the scale still tilts way over in her favor.

Faith MAY be Buffy's equal in power, but most certainly is NOT her equal in experience. Buffy has been on the hellmouth fighting evil for seven years, and at least a few months prior to that in Los Angeles. Faith was there for less than one year, and spent the rest of the time in prison. No Slaying experience there.

Giles and Anya might have had more knowledge of demons than Buffy, but they never used any of that knowledge for anything but research. They left the fighting to Buffy.

And, yes, I must agree with you again concerning the incidences of soldiers rebelling against their commanders. If their decision was right, they were called heroes and patriots. If they were wrong, they were called traitors. Buffy was right in believing that Caleb did, in fact, have something of hers at the vineyard (the Scythe, which, with the amulet Spike wore, won the battle). So, let's see, Buffy was right, and her army rebelled against her. I guess that makes them traitors, doesn't it?

And finally, Buffy DID offer to talk to the group, to discuss strategy and tactics, but they refused. Once again, there's that "traitor" thing...

 

[xgirlanachronism245x]

So I'm flipping through this thread and I see a lot of great points. But I think the thing about situations like this is that there aren't really sides to be on.
Both the Scoobs and Buffy had their points, what with Buffy's detachment and Faith's history, but I feel that the entire matter was approached and dealt with in the wrong way.

Since Season One, with Jesse getting turned and such, Willow, Xander, and Giles have all followed Buffy's lead with little questioning. She is, after all, the Chosen one. The one with the skill and the strength alone to... you get it. That line right there gives her superiority, because she is Chosen by the Powers-That-Sit-On-Their-Butts to be the ONLY one who can make the tough choices and save the freaking world. I think somewhere along the lines the Scoobs forgot about that. The only reason Faith is even in the picture is because Buffy died, as did Kendra. On the Scoobies watch mind you. So they aren't exactly known for having the best laid plans.

Neither is Buffy, though. But I really think the conflict here starts long before the threat of Caleb and the First even popped up. The Scoobs were constantly questioning her judgement in later seasons, a la Season 5 and 6. We see a lot of that there.

Buffy was put in a situation that was a considerable amount of pressure to her. She had never led this many people before, and in fact, she was never meant to. She was supposed to be alone, with no one but her watcher(who hasn't made a lot of good decisions in the past) to constantly save the world, and when she died another took her place.

The Scoobies were right to confront her, she wasn't thinking clearly, but they shouldn't have questioned her birth-right in front of the potentials and such. In fact, a private Scooby meeting should have been held. Chaos could have broken out so easily, because in how they did confronther, she was left open for the potentials to chime in with their two cents about things they didn't even know. Those who do not like it, do not have to stay. It is not thier duty, it's Buffy's. They Scoobs presented her with help, that was not equal but aided to her own strength and skill. They presented her with inferior help, so she assumed the superior role. Such is life. Buffy was accustomed to being followed with little questioning and getting the respect she deserved. Seven years is a mighty long time to be dealing with being a Slayer and a "normal" friend. I'm surprised it didn't happen in Season 4, or earlier.

My point really is that both sides had it's points, but ultimately Buffy was made the leader when they brought her back from heaven. That was them saying, "We can't do this without you. We need a leader." They got what they asked for, before they realized what it entailed. They put themselves in the position to be her "army", but mutinied against her when they suffered casualites. In my opinion, they were begging for it.

Side notes:

Faith, in my opinion, will never be equal to Buffy in strength or experience. She will always be second best. Now I adore her, but Faith is too much of a loose cannon to take on the role that Buffy was forced into.

Buffy sacrificed her LIFE to save the world. The least the Scoobs could do was to not make her look like a fool in front of the potentials.

Dawn? The nerve! Buffy jumped from a tower to save her butt and she kicks her out? Sisterly love my... you get the picture.

And the word traitor is used too generally. A mistake was made, albeit on that could have resulted in disaster, but it was rectified. But not completely. I don't imagine the relationships between Buffy and the gang will ever be quite the same... but I haven't read the comics yet...

Forgive me. I'm still fresh from seeing Season 7 for the first time. 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

I don't imagine the relationships between Buffy and the gang will ever be quite the same... but I haven't read the comics yet...🙂

Only Buffy and Xander have a tight friendship, which I think it was there in S7 (see kitchen scene in End of Days and they way they held each other's hands and looked at each other in Chosen), but Buffy's friendship with others isn't the same again, as you said.

 

[bradlee]

I think I would have been the 'lets think rationally people." person. I don't think it's wise to kick Buffy out but I do think that maybe we need to slow her down and get her to think clearly.

 

[sizzle-sozzle]

ok so ive just watched this epsiode earlier for about the millionth time and i still find the scene where they kick buffy out hard to watch.i think everyone had a valid point and if they had just lstened to eachother and not given an ultimatum to each side they could have made an agreement on something.i think buffy was unwilling to listen to other peoples ideas on how to approach things,but i also think the others just gave up on buffy and had made their mind up on not wantin to listen to buffy,but i think it was totally unfair for them to even try and kick her out let alone actually suceed in it,its like the last 7 years meant nothing to the gang,and they've all been through tht they could just do that.

 

[nerd4hire]

I would soooooo have been on Buffy's side. Something people too often miss in all this. Buffy turned out to be right.

I would have held Spike's coat for him when he smacked out Faith. I would have helped Faith up though.

 

[Xin Rong]

I would soooooo have been on Buffy's side. Something people too often miss in all this. Buffy turned out to be right.

I would have held Spike's coat for him when he smacked out Faith. I would have helped Faith up though.

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

 

[sosa lola]

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

I agree. Buffy was right that something was there, but I think her plan to get it sucks. The Scoobies were right that they needed a better plan, but the way they gave up on Buffy sucked.

 

[PhenixRising]

This si getting to be argued almost as Bangel vs Spuffy, and with even less chance of ever being resolved. Okay, are we all in agreement that up until the moment in question, call it rebellion or revolution, it really doesn't matter, Buffy was accepted as the protector, the provider, and the person in charge of organizing and training all of the Potentials as Giles gathered and delivered them? (Nod your heads here. Thank you) Now, can we all agree that there was a real, honest to goodness war going on in Sunnydale between the forces of the First Evil and the defenders of all that is good, embodied by the aforementioned Slayer and her friends and charges? (Nod again here, please.) We're all in agreement so far, right. Good.

Now, by definition, a group of fighters joined together to fight a common foe constitute an army. Okay? (Another nod at this moment would be appreciated) Also by definition, the person responsible for and in charge of such an army is called the commander. Do you see how cleverly I have worked this around to supporting my argument? (Another nod, but you may begin to grumble a bit now) When an army rebels against or refuses to follow the orders of its commander, the act is, by definition, mutiny. In time of war, which it has been established that this is, anyone who commits mutiny may be punished by up to and including death.

That is the situation in "Empty Places." An army rebelled against the legal orders of its commander. Legal orders do not include any guarantee that everyone will come home alive, or even that anyone will come back. Legal orders are simply the orders that advance the cause for which the army fights. Leonidas gave legal orders when he ordered his men to hold the pass at Thermopalae. William Barrett Travis gave legal orders when he ordered his men to man the walls at the Alamo. Buffy Summers gave legal orders when she ordered her troops to follow her back to the vineyard. Commanders lead armies. Committees debate. Armies get the job done. Debaters do a lot of talking but do very little.

When Buffy left, her army deteriorated into a committee, and only succeeded in getting people killed or injured unnecessarily. Ironically, of all of the greatest critics of Buffy's command, the leaders of the mutiny, were safely back at Slayer Central when all of the death and destruction took place. They were probably still debating the situation. (There are scattered nods, a small amount of applause, and several staunce detractors most definitely grumbling. I even hear a growl or two.)

My rant is finished.

To begin, I disagree with your assertion that she was the provider of the household. I doubt that she could afford to pay for her and dawn to live in that house. Of course we can agree to disagree on this point because there is no way that Buffy and Xander could support that many people. It was one of those annoying things about season 7. IMO, Gilies should have just said that as one of the last remaining Watchers in the world he has been given access to the Watcher treasury. It'd have taken up about 1 min to pull that off.

And your army analogy is interesting but I fail to see the parallels. In season 7 they are a gang not an army. Buffy's statements that they are an army doesn't make it so. Also, please do not attempt to compare the Spartan warrior culture to a diverse group of girls who are plucked out of their lives to face certain death in an apocalyptic battle. The Spartan culture prepared its warriors to die in battle. Buffy has merely made speeches that essentially says that these girls are all cannon fodder for the First. I haven't exactly heard a speech talking about sacrificing for the greater good etc etc.

Do you realize you are comparing trained military men in an actual battle for survival with 15-19 year old girls? Also do you not realize that Buffy just walked into a trap against the advice of her 'advisors'? Have you also forgotten that Caleb has just killed 3 girls, gouged out Xander's eye, and beat down two slayers while giving a sermon. And earlier in that episode he could have easily snapped Buffy's neck but chose not to do it. The best plan of action is to lay low and regroup before you take the last potential slayers into battle against Caleb. If I'm Caleb I don't even bother with Buffy or Faith. I go after every and any potential in the room and thin the herd.

A decent plan would be for her, Faith, and Spike to go against Caleb the next night. Maybe they are easily beat again but RESEARCH leads the other Scoobies to figure out the location of that mythic weapon. But I really did enjoy it when Buffy got the boot. I would have really liked it if Xander went off on her and talked about all the times that the Scoobies helped her form a strategy or even defeat a big bad.

Now this could get me into the entire concept of using the last of the slayer line in combat. Its really not a smart battle plan.

O and about your last point. When Buffy was in charge girls needlessly died when she walked into a trap. At least the girls had a say in their demise when Faith was in charge. I'm not exactly a fan of following the words of a blind mute lackey but thats just me.

And obviously I would have led the charge against Buffy. However I would have nominated Giles as the leader.

 

[PhenixRising]

o well, too bad I can't edit. i felt like seeing if I could get a rise out of someone. I agree w/ the military analogy but I'm not a fan of how the writers put it out there but maybe that was their intention. Who knows. Anyway, i felt like having a decent rhetorical argument 🙂 I still like my plan though and I do think that Buffy was a terrible or reluctant or just poorly written general. The final battle plan was all based on our emotional response not in any actual plot development. Cant fault the Buffster there.

 

[white avenger]

(I tried to reply to your post last night, but my new router kept messing up. I'll try again now)

First off, it WAS Buffy's household. It was her house, she provided shelter and protection for the Potentials and, eventually, the entire gang once it became too dangerous for the forces to be divided. Who bought the groceries was irrelevant. (On that note, Giles was no longer a Watcher, so he had no access to Watcher funds, and he never did. Whatever money he ever had was his own).

As to the age of Buffy's force (call it an army or a gang), wars have been fought by even younger fighters than that. Ask any Viet Nam vet. And on that note, Buffy was the leader because they had accepted her as such from the very beginning. By the point of the mutiny it was already an established fact. Certainly the girls were frightened, certainly some of them had been injured or killed by Caleb, but the Potentials should have realized by that time, or it should have been explained to them, that standing and fighting was their only choice. They were surrounded and cut off from any form of rescue. Separating or scattering and trying to escape would have only made Caleb's job easier. And, incidentally, if you look back, Robin Wood was the one to suggest taking the girls into battle in the first place, not Buffy.

Actually, I agree with you that Buffy, Spike, and Faith alone would probably had a better chance against Caleb without the Potentials along to have to protect. Their mistake fighting him was to fight "movie style," best illustrated by the Chop-Sockey movies of the 80's and 90's: surround a single fighter, then attack him one at a time. They should have used a coordinated attack, keepikg him off balance and never allowing him time to do any real damage to ani single fighter before someone else was coming at him from another direction. Even if his strength was truly titanic, he could not fight in three directions at once.

As for risking the entire Slayer line in battle, there wasn't a whole lot of choice there, simply because they were all in one place, surrounded, and they had no real option besides to fight (as we know after the fact, of course, the Slayer force actually numbered in the thousands, not dozens).

Finally, the girls who followed Faith to the arsenal and died had no more choice in the matter than Buffy's force did, they just had a different leader. They did, however, react better when everything went bad, and I have no option but to give credit to Kennedy for that. (Come on, we can take one of these things," might have been no more effective than the mouse giving the hawk the finger, but on the other hand, it sure beat covering their heads, screaming, and being slaughtered like cattle.

(Is that enough argument for you? I tried to answer all of your points, but if I missed any, feel free to point out my omissions.)

 

[Kimz]

i would of sided with buffy (and spike)
for the pure fact, she was their friend and leader, and she had stopped numerous apocolypses and saved their lives and sacrificed her own in the past, there was no reason why they shouldnt trust her to do the right thing. like spike says 'theres always casualties in a war' - think they were very harsh on buffy, and i find it hard watching that scene to be honest.

 

[nerd4hire]

She was right in the sense that something at the vineyard, but would have been wrong in taking the potentials to their deaths once again, force wasn't needed as she proved it was stealth

But that assumes we know what her plan of attack was. We don't. We only know her strategy of find out what's in the winery was correct.

Who knows how she planned to do that. A diversion? A rocket launcher attack? Who knows? And it wasn't just stealth that allowed her to snatch the scythe. It was luck.