Who's side would you have been on...?

sosa lola said:
I said, he may not agree with her, but he'll always take her side, I'll add, when it counts. In Dead Man's Party, Xander didn't agree with her choice to run away, but when zombies showed up, he was by her side fighting.

Here, he was not agreeing with her plan, but why didn't he argue against throwing Buffy out? (Even though she asked for it herself)

"I won't sit here watching her leading you to a disaster," Buffy said.

"Then don't," Dawn replied.
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Have to agree with this. There is a big difference between disagreeing with Buffy and totally going against her. There are ways and means to dealing with the situation they had there and the way that played out never felt right to me. The least that the other Scoobies should have done was to take the conversation to a more private place. Sure, the potentials deserved the truth and a say in what happened but at the end of the day they were all newbies in the demon slaying game and Buffy was their leader, up until that point. She deserved not to have her oldest friends turn on her and throw her out in some public humiliation scenario.

Xander may not have been in the best emotional place at that time but he still really should have dealt with the situation in a better way. As should Willow, Giles and the other Scoobies. Because of that the scene often feels very forced to me.
 
I think Buffy should have been making plans WITH her trusted buddies from the get go. Perhaps Giles wouldn't have let Robin try and take Spike out if he had felt like Buffy wasn't pushing everyone away EXCEPT Spike. I'm not sure I would have felt horribly comfortable with that situation if I were Giles either.
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I'm getting sick and tired of fans making excuses for Giles' actions. Yes, Buffy made mistakes. But so did he. Isn't it about time that people realized that Giles was NEVER the perfect mentor who knew everything? Because he wasn't.

He WAS THE MORON who insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials and everyone else, without bothering to teach her how to become a leader. He was the one who panicked and allowed himself to be drawn into a plot to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. He was the one who insisted that Buffy grow up, yet at the same time, tried to keep her down and under his control.

Two, I'm getting sick and tired of fans insisting that Buffy had to spend every moment of life with the Scoobies. If the First Slayer had all of that within her - Hand, Heart, Spirit and Mind - then Buffy should have inherited that from her . . . and taken out Adam on her own. The fact that she used the Scoobies help her only told me that she was afraid of summoning all of that within her to deal with Adam and that she was still clinging to the Scoobies and her adolescence. The First Slayer had been right about her.

Yes, there are times when you need your friends or some kind of help in certain situations. There are times when you have no choice but to act alone. I get the feeling that most BtVS fans wanted to keep Buffy regressed between 16-18 years old, in which she would always have to depend upon the Scoobies . . . and stick with them forever.

Buffy had to grow up. Even if it meant making mistakes. She could not stay the way she was when the series first began. And that meant having a life outside the Scoobies and not getting involved with certain men who want to view her as a perpetual adolescent. I had been thrilled when Andrew revealed to Spike in "ANGEL" S5 ("Damage") that the Scoobies had scattered to the far corners of the world to start new lives, and yet still retained their friendship. Then Whedon screwed that up by bringing them back together for his new comic series that picked up after Season 7. It now looks as if Buffy will remain forever static, clinging to the Scoobies for the rest of her life. And considering that she is still a Slayer only tells me that she has yet to take control of her life or create one for herself.
 
one it was a trap, when faith went to the vienyard there was a bomb trap

two; she told them now one was watching my back but spike, xander lost his eye, part of that reason was he went to help buffy at the vienyard he could have left. (to trust spike like she did when he was under the first control not that long ago was not the best idea)

every for that she make a buch of mistake in the last week and was geting worse. they were trying to get her out of it. (they did it the wrong way)


three, they had time to plan anya was a thousand year ond demon, guiles spent 40 years study demons faith was a slayer xander has a way of finding the right answer at the right time and willow was the most powerfull witch in the world she would not lessen to anyone they tried let think about this, we think you are makeing a mistake and maybe faith should be in charge (with is beyond stupid) dawn kick her out becouse she would not let any one else lead. all she would have to say was lets talk about this and that would be the end of it.


I wish xander would have said this to buffy " you can not defeat the first, you have never defeated the big bad alone" then smile gave her a hug "remember the master we save you, adam together we kick ass, gloly, we killed a god. you have never been alone, and togather we beat this reject ghost, but you have to let us help you please buffy let us help you.

she won becouse she let them help willow with her magic xander just being xander guils anya faith and spike.
 
i so would of sided with buffy...like spike said, 'theres always casualties in a war' plus faith led them into a situation just as bad as the one buffy led them into.
buffy was the leader, and had more experience. plus she came out on top with what they essentially needed in the end, like u knew she would.
i was quite disappointed that the original scoobies didnt side with her its not like shes ever let them down in an apocolypse before, shes always come through and shes always saved the world...plus dawn had a bit of cheek making her leave considering she sacrificed herself for dawn to save the world before...pffft...that scene really annoys me LOL can ya tell!

but yeah i would of sided with buffy....plus the potential slayers really annoyed me in this scene especially kennedy and rhona. lol

x
 
I would have definetly taken Buffy's side. As much as I love Faith, I would have been with Buffy. If she still got kicked out after I had argued my case I would have gone with her.
 
i'm not afraid to admit i love both slayers and i'm sure i'm not the only one,i would have loved to have sided with buffy and stuck up for and with her! however we have to remember there was a large group there against her,so this brings peer presure into this situation.would i have voiced my opinion of being on buffy's side,with so many people aroung me wanting to appoint faith the new leader.

thats a hard thing to answer i would like to think i would,but wouldn't no unless i was in that situation!

but ye i would have liked to side with buffy 😛
 
I just watched this episode again and it boiled my blood to watch them all turn on her like that! I dont even think that she had been out of line at all, during ANY of the episodes. She was making the hard calls and giving out the tough love speeches...which they all needed to hear bc most of them were whiny little twits (the potentials). I found it VERY odd that even Willow and Xandar jumped on the mutiny bandwagon. I could see it building up to this with Giles, but not with those two. But, even though as Buffy walks away and relinquishes her power as commander as they all wished, Im sure she knew that things would fall apart without her. And, they did.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
I agree, and I LOVE your screenname!!!
actually, watching it again i would've sided with the group. Buffy was getting way too head strong after so many years, and seriously, the way she was acting iwould've punched her in the face.

and as for Xander not standing up for her... he lost a friggin' eye, i think that would hold some weight in his decision.
 
I probably would have stuck up for Buffy.... I think the others were just feeling the pressure and wanted to lighten up but Buffy knew they didn't have time for that and she was trying to keep them all focused. They were too hard on her.
 
I hated this episode as it sole purpose for me seemed to be to separate Buffy and Spike and it was not done well at all. Of course they were made to be right side so to speak. Altough on long run it was best outcome as if they had gone in force there would been casualties and if they had gone at once then the axe would still been in that big rock invisible for Buffy to see it even. Overall i just ignore that subplot 😛

Now about the arguement itself, i am more on scoobies side than Buffy. Her arguement was that why is not the First henchmen guarding the seal. Umm, let me see i am big bad the first and i really really should be guarding the seal that keeps my army locked, because you see if someone were to open it and release my army that would be bad for me....wait a minute?
 
I actually think Buffy needed it. She was too caught up on her Heartless General role that she forgot what had gotten her this far: the team work with her friends. She didn't get them this far by herself and we all know that, but it seemed that Buffy had been taking her friends' help for granted, too caught up in "The slayer is always alone" gig. Therefore making stupid mistakes and losing the respect of those around her.

She stubbornly said that she won't sit around and watch Faith lead, in which Dawn sated "then don't." Buffy had said that they needed to be together on this (which in Buffy's mind means that they have to fall in line like robots with no feelings or opinions of their own.) Dawn simply said that Buffy isn't playing with the team, she's like Will Smith in that episode where Carlton joined the basketball team. The one where Will Smith arrogantly plays solo and doesn't share the ball with his other teammates. Once Buffy figures out how to be a leader, she's welcomed back.

Buffy needed to be out of the action to perform better and as you can see, she came back better than ever. She learned that her way was wrong and that she needed to include the others into her decision making plans. That she needed to give Faith and the others a chance to express themselves and show what they're capable of.

The Scoobies were also wrong in the fact that they discussed the matter with Buffy among strangers. They needed to have a private discussion and come to a good solution on their own, not in front of those who did not share the experience of seven years fighting.

I have to say that the Empty Places scene was very badly written. It's like the writers wanted us to root for Buffy through hating the Scoobies, make Spike the hero who understands and the others the ungrateful betrayers. Kinda like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old. The Scoobies appeared very OOC in that scene and Touched.

In S2 Innocence, Xander and Willow were enraged that Giles wouldn't look for Buffy because she had disappeared all night. Giles wasn't put in a bad light in that scene, just a watcher who believes in his slayer. Xander and Willow didn't appear badly in that scene, just two friends concerned for their friend. This is a good scene with two different points of view but both parties are sympathetic and have a point.

Sadly Empty Places is obviously favors Buffy's side over the others, which means bad writing.
 
sosa lola said:
I actually think Buffy needed it. She was too caught up on her Heartless General role that she forgot what had gotten her this far: the team work with her friends. She didn't get them this far by herself and we all know that, but it seemed that Buffy had been taking her friends' help for granted, too caught up in "The slayer is always alone" gig. Therefore making stupid mistakes and losing the respect of those around her.
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Totally agree.

She stubbornly said that she won't sit around and watch Faith lead, in which Dawn sated "then don't." Buffy had said that they needed to be together on this (which in Buffy's mind means that they have to fall in line like robots with no feelings or opinions of their own.) Dawn simply said that Buffy isn't playing with the team, she's like Will Smith in that episode where Carlton joined the basketball team. The one where Will Smith arrogantly plays solo and doesn't share the ball with his other teammates. Once Buffy figures out how to be a leader, she's welcomed back.
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Yep and extra points for the Fresh Prince anology.

Buffy needed to be out of the action to perform better and as you can see, she came back better than ever. She learned that her way was wrong and that she needed to include the others into her decision making plans. That she needed to give Faith and the others a chance to express themselves and show what they're capable of.
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As you've said, one of Buffy's strengths were her friends and her feelings for her friends. The FE did their homework and this is why they attempted to divide them.



The Scoobies were also wrong in the fact that they discussed the matter with Buffy among strangers. They needed to have a private discussion and come to a good solution on their own, not in front of those who did not share the experience of seven years fighting.
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I this was the result of an extreme circumstance. I think both Buffy and the Scoobies were not thinking straight.

I have to say that the Empty Places scene was very badly written. It's like the writers wanted us to root for Buffy through hating the Scoobies, make Spike the hero who understands and the others the ungrateful betrayers. Kinda like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old. The Scoobies appeared very OOC in that scene and Touched.
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A few people have said that, but I never really got it. I only accept OOC when there is no explanation of why a character is acting the way they are, but we have a virtually a whole season leading up these events. As for Spike? I didn't agree with the things he said in the next ep, well not all of it. He is compasionate and caring, but he can also be emotional and one sided. It would be out of character for Spike to stop and look at both sides of the story in this situation, he followed his heart, as we expected. This shouldn't however mute his support of Buffy in the bedroom scene, I just see this as the strengths and weaknesses of Spike rolled into one, kind of like Buffy of yore.

In S2 Innocence, Xander and Willow were enraged that Giles wouldn't look for Buffy because she had disappeared all night. Giles wasn't put in a bad light in that scene, just a watcher who believes in his slayer. Xander and Willow didn't appear badly in that scene, just two friends concerned for their friend. This is a good scene with two different points of view but both parties are sympathetic and have a point.
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Agreed.

Sadly Empty Places is obviously favors Buffy's side over the others, which means bad writing.
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Oddly enough, I never even got this before I went onto the forums. I've always seen both sides from the get go. Maybe I missed the point.
 
Kana said:
A few people have said that, but I never really got it. I only accept OOC when there is no explanation of why a character is acting the way they are, but we have a virtually a whole season leading up these events.
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I agree. But sadly only you and I see this because we look at the situation objectively. Other fans don't and I don't blame them. The writers did a good job showing us how hurt Buffy was by the turn of events in Empty Places, how alone and betrayed. But they didn't even bother to show us how the Scoobies felt. I can't believe they didn't write ONE scene with Xander, Willow, Dawn and Giles wondering how Buffy is, is she okay? Where did she go? That seemed OOC for me. Only when Faith tells them to check on Buffy, they go looking for her. These are not the Scoobies I know.

As for Spike? I didn't agree with the things he said in the next ep, well not all of it. He is compasionate and caring, but he can also be emotional and one sided. It would be out of character for Spike to stop and look at both sides of the story in this situation, he followed his heart, as we expected. This shouldn't however mute his support of Buffy in the bedroom scene, I just see this as the strengths and weaknesses of Spike rolled into one, kind of like Buffy of yore.
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Spike's feelings were captured perfectly and nothing about his reaction was OOC. Of course, he'll take Buffy's side. I don't agree with everything he said, especially about Giles, but he was written well. Can't say the same about Xander, Willow, Dawn and Giles.
 
Seen in the light of what just happened to them all (Xander's eye, potentials killed) I can't blame them. Buffy forgot about one thing: Those girls were potentials, but not slayers! No matter how much you train them, they are only as good as a normal young scared girl can get: NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

She was being a bitca, a selfish one! And when she needed to be kicked out. She needed someone to stand against her for once. To set things in perspective.

I would have kicked her out, even if she was my fraternal twin!
 
S
sosa lola
Finally, someone else who sees the other side's point of view.
LadyLavinia said:
He WAS THE MORON who insisted that Buffy lead the Potentials and everyone else, without bothering to teach her how to become a leader. He was the one who panicked and allowed himself to be drawn into a plot to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. He was the one who insisted that Buffy grow up, yet at the same time, tried to keep her down and under his control.
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I agree with this point.

Giles thrust ths job upon her without lending a hand to help her, without giving her any training to lead an ARMY of whining teenage girls with no grasp for what they were turly facing. As for the Spike thing, Giles pulled an Angel... and that made me hate him. He tried to do what was "best for her" without consulting her... without trusting her not to let him go crazy. He left her in Season 6 to make her stand on her own... yet he still does stuff like that... hypocritical? Very much so.

-----

Buffy doesn't NEED the Scoobies... but she trusted them to help her, to make her struggle easier, and to be her friends throughout the pain and the heartbreak and the war. They betrayed her here, but she didn't have to leave her own house. What surprised me, and made me hate this episode the most, was Dawn. Dawn, who is her sister, who she saved, who she gave her life for... forcing her from the scoobies ranks.


Buffy happened to be right. She went on her own and proved she was right. But I think that was the moment she realized that Spike has always been right, because he was the only one who understands what it is like to HAVE to be alone, to have to grow up and take the pain alone. But he was alone with her... and that made her less alone... if that makes sense.


A slayers's job is to fight the war between good and evil... its her job... not her friends. They chose to be there, they chose to follow, and after six years of following... after all of the things they've been through, for them to pull this when she NEEDED them... It wasn't the SLAYER needing them. The SLAYER was LEADING them. Buffy NEEDED them. The girl behind the slayer. And they walked away from her.


It makes me sick.
 
Old Master 3.0
Old Master 3.0
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I would have sided with Buffy. She's not always right, but she deserves their loyalty. It was their choice to stay by her side all these years. Willow could have gone to any college she liked, Xander was the most successful.
career wise, he could have left sunnydale. They felt it was a good fight, and they stuck by her.
It really pissed me of, when Anya got on her case. Hey bitch, remember that reality without Buffy in it. Xander, Willow, Cordy and most of sunnydale are dead and you're still a big veiny demon. None of them would be around, their lives were better for having Buffy in it. They may not remember it but she should, why not tell them what happens when buffy's not in their life, before you boot her out. Ungrateful scoobies.
 
atticus said:
I would have sided with Buffy. She's not always right, but she deserves their loyalty.
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You're right, but just because she's my friend I don't have to follow her like a blind lap dog. No one was convinced on her plan. They didn't want things to go to the point of "kicking her out". But Buffy's bossy and superior attitude was wrong, it didn't give her any favors. She needed to be out of the picture for awhile. Learn to be the effective leader she used to be. Learn that she's surrounded by people with minds of their own and limited strengths. Learn to hear suggestions and ideas.

You know why Buffy led them to a disaster in Dirty Girls? Because she didn't listen to her friends. Because she chose to be arrogant. If she knew how to listen and value other ideas and suggestions, she wouldn't have found herself in the street. And you know why Faith led them to a disaster in Touched? Because she, too, was an arrogant leader who only wanted to hear her voice. She made the exact mistake as Buffy.

I know that Buffy has been into a lot of pressure and she desperately wanted to lead everybody to victory. But that fight in Empty Places had two sides in which both were right and both were wrong. No one was right and no one was wrong.
 
I don't think that anyone was 100percent wrong in what had happenned in that scene. I mean, if it was the apocalyspe and I was almost sure to die, I would act a little crazy to. I think the scoobies were wrong about kicking Buffy out but I can sort of understand why they did it.

So I guess I don't really know which side I would have taken, I love Buffy, but you know, if I would be one of the scoobies or one od the potential, I guess I would just be scrared. Of course, kicking Buffy out isn't exacly the best idea but people always do a least one stupid thing in their life.
 
Ahh god this scene was awful! I am going to say that I would have sided with Buffy. True she was acting a-bit irrational but she still know's what she is doing, and I always remember thinking "it's her house!" well kinda lol I loved it when Spike went back and stood up for her.
 
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