Whose Show Is It Anyway?

[xaphania]

Queen of Buffy meta Gabrielleabelle has been posting this series on livejournal over the last few months, and it's now finished.

What This Is

This is a many entries long project to crunch some numbers about the show. Like numbers? Empirical data? Statistics? You're gonna dig this.

Details

Because I'm an insane fan, I did a line and scene count of each episode, put out season-by-season summaries, then played with the numbers to try to find meaning. In particular, I started out interested in the trends revolving around Spike's character (testing the oft-repeated claim that he took over the show). However, my interest grew more general as the project went on. In addition to counting lines and scenes, I kept track of how many times characters were referred to by other characters. Doing so revealed interesting patterns not apparent in the line/scene counts.

-gabrielleabelle

It's a really interesting series and seems to put to rest the claim that Spike took over season seven. 😉 Definitely recommended reading.

Whose Show Is It Anyway? Master Post

 

[zobothehobo]

I find the season 7 findings crazy interesting.

 

[Flannen]

Does it really put that 'claim' to rest?

So he doesn't have the most lines...but he has the second highest number of references which would suggest that the show is still very heavily centred around him? More so than the other characters such as the rest of the Scoobies?

It's an interesting thing to have tried but I'm afraid a bunch of numbers isn't putting anything I 'claim' to rest. Certainly not how I feel every single time I watch that season.

 

[Kean]

Does it really put that 'claim' to rest?

So he doesn't have the most lines...but he has the second highest number of references which would suggest that the show is still very heavily centred around him? More so than the other characters such as the rest of the Scoobies?

It's an interesting thing to have tried but I'm afraid a bunch of numbers isn't putting anything I 'claim' to rest. Certainly not how I feel every single time I watch that season.

I agree. I'd imagine if you went back to season two and counted all of Angel/Angelus' lines, and the number of times they were referred to, you'd find several other characters getting more screen time. However, that in no way reflects the fact that the entire season centered on him, his character(s) and his story.

 

[zobothehobo]

Kean agrees: Ooops, I missed that, I just looked at S7. But it proves my point. Angel was towards the bottom in terms of lines and scenes, and it was still very much his season.

And the post addresses this in the "All the Season." She says "Spike took over S7 as much as Faith took over S3 or Dawn took over S5." Sure she doesn't mention Angel... but she does mention other characters who have a "season" who don't get as much hate or flack.

 

[Flannen]

What annoys me most about S7 being the Spike and Buffy show, is the fact it's the final season. I didn't want the final season of my favourite show (in my younger years) leaving three of the four core characters in the gutter.

And I would seriously contest how much Faith took over season three. Faith's arc in S3 is actually the way you go about making a season about a character without them taking over. So it's nothing to do with Spike being victimised or treated unfairly when he has exactly the same number of lines as Faith did in S3, or whatever. It just shows that numbers like this can't speak for everything.

 

[Kean]

And the post addresses this in the "All the Season." She says "Spike took over S7 as much as Faith took over S3 or Dawn took over S5." Sure she doesn't mention Angel... but she does mention other characters who have a "season" who don't get as much hate or flack.

Those static figures do not reflect the actual tone or execution of any of the above mentioned seasons. The simple numbers have zero reflection for the viewing experience. And as it happens, I think it is very fair to say that Faith and Dawn were completely central to their respective seasons.

As for Spike getting flack well from my own perspective it isn't because of the number of scenes or lines he gets, it was because in that season he filled the role of almost every relationship Buffy had. He was the friend, confidante, ally...he essentially took the place of the Scoobies. This was problematic for many reasons but one of the biggest was that the Scoobies were now either rendered as the villains or totally useless.

 

[LadyLavinia]

He was the friend, confidante, ally...he essentially took the place of the Scoobies. This was problematic for many reasons but one of the biggest was that the Scoobies were now either rendered as the villains or totally useless.

That didn't bother me . . . at all, if I must be honest. I didn't expect Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies to constantly remain the same. Especially in the period following her resurrection from the dead. And the Scoobies had a bad habit of demanding she behave as both an ideal Slayer and friend, while putting her on a pedestal.

 

[Kean]

zobothehobo agrees: That's what a good life companion should do. Be your best friend, confidante, ally..

But to the detriment of all your other relationships? It shouldn't have to be one or the other. And that's what S7 felt like to me.

 

[The Unspoken]

Season 7 manages to destroy the entire premise of the show. The Generalissimo!Buffy we see in this season is what Buffy always feared she would become, the Slayer that walks alone, that deliberately cuts herself off from her friends. Instead of addressing this, the show rewards her poor decisions (fighting the Ubervamp unprepared and unarmed in 'Showtime', keeping trigger!Spike unchained for several months, forcing everyone to go along with a repeat of her disastrous plan in 'Empty Places', etc.) with convenient dei ex machina and easy victories.

So where does that leave Spike? He's the one person that Buffy could count on to go along with her every plan and action. I guess you could say he helped destroy the premise of the show.

This sentiment does not reflect on the first 7 episodes or so, which were actually pretty good.

 

[Flannen]

That didn't bother me . . . at all, if I must be honest. I didn't expect Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies to constantly remain the same. Especially in the period following her resurrection from the dead. And the Scoobies had a bad habit of demanding she behave as both an ideal Slayer and friend, while putting her on a pedestal.

I don't think anyone who expresses annoyance at how Spike took over the role of the Scoobies expected or wanted the Scoobies relationships to constantly remain the same. It's something I see being said quite a lot as a justification for the Spike show of S7 but I'm yet to see anyone who dislikes it, state this as a reason...

And I think Buffy liked it up there on her pedestal, even though I disagree with the sentiment.

 

[Icarium]

Rather pointless endeavour, IMO. The number of lines proves nothing. In S4-7 Xander has plenty of lines but is almost never a part of the most important storylines. Ditto for Anya and Giles (whenever he isn't missing altogether).

As for Spike getting flack well from my own perspective it isn't because of the number of scenes or lines he gets, it was because in that season he filled the role of almost every relationship Buffy had. He was the friend, confidante, ally...he essentially took the place of the Scoobies.

Word. Other characters might have had lines in S7 but their roles in the grand scheme of things were quite negligible, except for being there to be a burden on Buffy. One can't help but wonder if Anya, Xander and Dawn for instance were not there mostly because the people who played them had contracts for that season since the writers seemed completely disinterested in their stories, except for an odd episode or two. When the show was at its best, each of the main characters had an important role to play and they were all involved in the "A" plot of the episodes. There weren't things like Buffy and Xander allowing Willow-as-Warren go sulk without trying to help her, in order for Kennedy to rescue her with the miraculous power of the kiss. I am aware that it is much easier to write segmented stories than to involve as many characters as possible in the main plot but it comes off as laziness on the part of Joss et al.

So basically, the number of lines isn't a good measurement of anything because a lot of the dialogue is pretty much filler or a part of Plot B or Plot C. For instance all the comedy scenes with Anya and Giles in the Magic Box - they are often great fun but in 95% of the cases completely irrelevant for the plot. And yes, plot isn't everything but when one character is pretty much only comic relief while another has a crucial role in the story and in Buffy's life, it would be very weird to claim that the latter isn't given more importance by the writers just because the former has almost as many lines as them.

I don't think anyone who expresses annoyance at how Spike took over the role of the Scoobies expected or wanted the Scoobies relationships to constantly remain the same. It's something I see being said quite a lot as a justification for the Spike show of S7 but I'm yet to see anyone who dislikes it, state this as a reason...

Yes, clear strawman argument. The Scoobies' friendships constantly developed and changed over the course of the first four seasons, so the problem in S6-7 (and 5, albeit to a lesser extent) isn't that they changed, it's that they pretty much ceased to exist at all but the show continued to imply that no, Buffy and pals were still good friends, really, whenever that was convenient for the plot.

 

[Kean]

So basically, the number of lines isn't a good measurement of anything because a lot of the dialogue is pretty much filler or a part of Plot B or Plot C. For instance all the comedy scenes with Anya and Giles in the Magic Box - they are often great fun but in 95% of the cases completely irrelevant for the plot. And yes, plot isn't everything but when one character is pretty much only comic relief while another has a crucial role in the story and in Buffy's life, it would be very weird to claim that the latter isn't given more importance by the writers just because the former has almost as many lines as them.

Indeed. Quantitative measurement of particular aspects of the episodes is completely pointless in my opinion. It doesn't provide an accurate reading of what was going on in the show at all.

Yes, clear strawman argument. The Scoobies' friendships constantly developed and changed over the course of the first four seasons, so the problem in S6-7 (and 5, albeit to a lesser extent) isn't that they changed, it's that they pretty much ceased to exist at all but the show continued to imply that no, Buffy and pals were still good friends, really, whenever that was convenient for the plot.

Agreed.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

My question is to Kean, Icarium, Flannen, The Unspoken and other people who insist that Spike has taken over the role of the Scoobies: do you have ideas about the development of Willow's, Xander's and Giles' character arcs within the parameters on the season?

Something that you wanted to see? Something concrete, like "instead of Spike, The First abducts and tortures Xander". Or "instead of Spike, it's Willow, who calls everybody worthless and ungrateful, goes after Buffy, gives her a pep-talk and the snuggles with her on the couch".

I'm curious, because I'm currently writing a Xander-centric version of season 7 and I'm fascinated by the group dynamics that refuses to change.

 

[The Unspoken]

My question is to Kean, Icarium, Flannen, The Unspoken and other people who insist that Spike has taken over the role of the Scoobies: do you have ideas about the development of Willow's, Xander's and Giles' character arcs within the parameters on the season?

Something that you wanted to see? Something concrete, like "instead of Spike, The First abducts and tortures Xander". Or "instead of Spike, it's Willow, who calls everybody worthless and ungrateful, goes after Buffy, gives her a pep-talk and the snuggles with her on the couch".

I'm curious, because I'm currently writing a Xander-centric version of season 7 and I'm fascinated by the group dynamics that refuses to change.

Well, Xander wasn't in great shape, so you can rule out Marti No...err, the First torturing him shirtless. 🙂

I will say that I found general!Buffy and her lack of connection to the Scoobies very artificial and forced. I would much rather see things continue in the vein of the first 7 episodes or so, with the focus on the Scooby friendship (and no Potentials of course). There was no need for the Spuffy vs. Scoobies conflict in this season. For example, the trigger storyline made no sense whatsoever: nobody says anything while trigger!Spike walks unchained for months, the First never activates the trigger and attempts to let Spike slaughter them all in their sleep, etc.

 

[Kean]

I'm curious, because I'm currently writing a Xander-centric version of season 7 and I'm fascinated by the group dynamics that refuses to change.

I've often remarked to Sosa how I would have loved for Xander to have come to Buffy at the end of Helpless and the two of them have a talk about the whole "Kick his Ass" comment. I think Xander finally understood Buffy and where she was at back then. I think it would have been a really lovely moment for them as friends, to support each other and commiserate. As well as that I think it would have facilitated a closer bond between Xander and Buffy early in that seasons and lessened the isolation of Buffy.

I would have kept all the Scoobies single. I think this would have pushed them to seek emotional support from each other, rather than seeking other's out.

I would have liked to have seen the Scoobies confront each other in private. They were the officers of an Army. The public battles they had not only tore them apart but it left the Potentials in a very uncertain position.

Speaking of, I would have liked Giles to taken more of a Watcher role with the girls. It was his job after all. It didn't all have to be Buffy shouldering every responsibility.

Oh, and I would completely obliterate Buffy telling Wood she would let Spike kill him. Without question that is her all time lowest moment.

Basically, I would have liked more Scooby interaction and have them actually deal with their issues, together, rather than drift farther apart.

 

[Icarium]

If I have to be honest, I would have changed so much of S7 that it would have become pretty much a whole new thing. The villain is too overpowered and the only way Buffy has a shot at surviving is because his minions never bother finishing her off. Willow would have been much more of a central figure in my version, not because I like the "Willow is the most powerful witch in the world" nonsense but because once established, this shouldn't have been just ignored for most of the season. It makes no sense that the First would spend so much efforts on trying to bring Spike, Buffy, Wood, Andrew, etc to the dark side when Willow was very fragile mentally and capable of destroying the world.

As for something concrete - Willow and Xander should have been much closer after the yellow crayon speech. In "The Killer in Me" when Willow freaks out, it should have been Xander and Buffy helping her deal, not Kennedy. In Showtime, the plan to defeat the Turok-Han should have involved everyone's skills, not just Buffy relying on blind luck and the others eating popcorn in the stands. Anyanka 2.0 should have been dealt with immediately after Dark Willow becuase it was wildly irresponsible to leave her grant wishes for months. Giles should have been filled with guilt for abandoning Buffy in S6 and never teaching Willow how to use her magic properly. The trigger nonsense should have been cut off altogether as it never made any sense - if the First could put triggers in people why did it bother tempting Dawn, Willow, Andrew, Angel, etc, with just words and ghosts?

Most importantly, the writers needed to decide if they wanted to portray the Scoobies as friends or not. I would have hated it if they had decided to drop the pretence, but at least it would have been the honest thing to do.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

The Unspoken
Well, Xander wasn't in great shape, so you can rule out Marti No...err, the First torturing him shirtless.

Heee! Well, in season 7 it was Jane!E who tortured him shirtless in "First Date"...

I will say that I found general!Buffy and her lack of connection to the Scoobies very artificial and forced. I would much rather see things continue in the vein of the first 7 episodes or so, with the focus on the Scooby friendship (and no Potentials of course). There was no need for the Spuffy vs. Scoobies conflict in this season. For example, the trigger storyline made no sense whatsoever: nobody says anything while trigger!Spike walks unchained for months, the First never activates the trigger and attempts to let Spike slaughter them all in their sleep, etc.

I see, but the question is, what you would like to see instead. Something concrete.

As to triggered Spike walking around, I have the impression that he wasn't chained only when Buffy was around. It was explicitly shown several times that Buffy was stronger physically and she could knock him out.

Kean
I've often remarked to Sosa how I would have loved for Xander to have come to Buffy at the end of Helpless and the two of them have a talk about the whole "Kick his Ass" comment.

I had an idea once - to rewrite season 3, based on the premise that Xander didn't say "kick his ass", Buffy tried to stall Angelus, he sired her and later Willow ensouled her. So, season 3 starts with her being a vampire, while both Xander and Angel are miserable and self-flagellating. And in the end of the story Buffy saves the world from The Mayor and shanshues.

I would have kept all the Scoobies single. I think this would have pushed them to seek emotional support from each other, rather than seeking other's out.

Emotional support regarding what? The First's schemes? I don't think the audience cared much about those schemes. The most powerful and compelling element of Buffyverse have always been characters' love trials and tribulations. Without ships the show would've been hollow.

Basically, I would have liked more Scooby interaction and have them actually deal with their issues, together, rather than drift farther apart.

Again - what issues? If they don't have love lives, if they only fight the First and train the girls, what kind of interesting issues you could come up with?

In the story I write they have a hard dilemma - they know that resurrecting Buffy may bring the First, and they clash about it: Giles, Faith and Anya against Xander, Willow and Spike. (guess who's pro and who's contra 🙂

Icarium - I appreciate your reply. I read many rewrites of season 7 that were pretty much a whole new thing. The majority of rewrites I read were Spike and Spuffy-centric, and the authors shared many of your ideas: they usually put their favorite character (Spike) in the center, made him actively helping Buffy to deal with her problems (ubervamps, The First, emotional distance) and made Buffy help him deal with his issues and insecurities.

I remember how unsatisfied I was about season 7 back in 2002-2003! Spike had so little screentime, by my estimate! 🙂 I was downloading the episodes as they aired, and I was on dial-up; it took me a whole night to d/l the lowest-quality 70-mb file. One of the fans who had a vidding program compiled all Spike scenes in every episode in a separate files to be downloaded first. These files usually were so small, they ran about 4-5 minutes.

 

[Icarium]

The most powerful and compelling element of Buffyverse have always been characters' love trials and tribulations. Without ships the show would've been hollow.

Well, this where we disagree the most, I suspect. If I had to choose what to remove from the show, the friendships or the romantic relationships, I would pick the latter without any hesitation. But nevertheless, the show was at its best when it had both. Artificially destroying Buffy's friendships to make Spuffy look all the more special is a very amateurish way of writing, IMO, one more suited for shipping fanfiction than a TV show. I don't say that just because I dislike Spuffy - I love Willow/Tara but it still frustrates me that after Hush Willow is never as close to Buffy and Xander as she was before Tara came onto the scene.

In the story I write they have a hard dilemma - they know that resurrecting Buffy may bring the First, and they clash about it: Giles, Faith and Anya against Xander, Willow and Spike. (guess who's pro and who's contra

Why would Giles, Xander and Willow bother to consult with Faith and Spike about that? 🙂

I remember how unsatisfied I was about season 7 back in 2002-2003! Spike had so little screentime, by my estimate!

That's S7 all right, it managed to disappoint even many of the fans it tried to pander to. Like the "brilliant" plan to placate those who accused them of homophobia by giving them Willow/Kennedy. 🙂

Again - what issues? If they don't have love lives, if they only fight the First and train the girls, what kind of interesting issues you could come up with?

Willow dealing with the magic addiction and the death of Tara. And no, this happening off-screen doesn't count as a well told story, mind you. Maybe finding a job to help Buffy financially, deciding on post-graduate studies, basically having some semblance of normal life too. Dawn working hard to become helpful for the group while having to deal with Buffy's aloofness and the death of yet another parental figure just a few months ago. Xander reconnecting to Willow and Buffy, arguing with them and Giles whether to put the Potentials in danger more to make them learn how to save their skins or concentrate on protecting them by keeping them away from all dangers. Buffy recognizing that she wants to live after all, opening up to her friends, seeing much of herself in the Potentials instead of treating them as useless burden, trying to get a better job, dealing with Giles's return, etc. There are many things that could have been explored, instead of turning the show into "Buffy and Spike against the world".

On the flip side what interesting issues did Willow/Kennedy bring up? Xander/Anya in S7? One can say Selfless but it would have worked much the same even if Xander and Anya had remained adamant in their decision to be separated. Spike himself only got anything resembling good character development once he moved to LA and left Buffy behind, IMO.

 

[Doppelgang]

Wow, what a metaphysical can of worms this thread has opened up 😱
It starts with a claim that Spike didn't take over season 7, and progresses from disagreeing with this, to wanting to change everything about season 7 because he did in fact take over season 7 😀

I'm still quite new to a lot of the age-old debates about Buffy, and this is the first I've heard of this one regarding Spike taking over season 7. I suppose I never thought about it much at the time watching it, but I think really the problem is that they didn't find brilliant or even adequate storylines for some of the other characters, particularly Giles, Xander and Willow, who didn't really develop much as characters in this series. I think the problem, as I've mentioned before in season 7 for Xander and Willow is that their storyline effectively ended with the season 6 ending. That was the logical conclusion for them that had built up over the 6 seasons. For Buffy, her story pretty much ended in season 5 finale with her decision to sacrifice herself for Dawn. How can you come back the same after making a decision like that? With Giles, I think there is less of an excuse and they missed out on a few opportunities to make his storyline more interesting.

Lets not forget the other factor that took away from the focus on the core scoobies in season 7, namely all the air time given to bringing in loads of new characters right into the heart of Buffy's life, living in her home, the potentials.

I think, the writers had decided pretty much in advance of season 7 that they were going to develop the Buffy/Spike relationship so they were going to make things happen to fit in line with this. But even in season 7 I think their relationship is very complicated between just being friends with compassion for each other and being a romantic relationship. They're not all over each other like in season 6, and it's not a case of Spike obsessing over Buffy like in season 5. It just seems that they have Buffy decide that Spike is indispensable in her life. I don't know how believable it is, but I always just accepted that that was how it went, though I never thought of them as being in a relationship in any normal/standard sense of that word.

In sum, I think the problem was not the focus on Buffy/Spike, this story I found developed in an interesting way, but the lack of focus on developing the storylines of the other core members of the scooby gang alongside this. They could have found ways to have the stories tie in with each other like they did in previous seasons. The biggest problem for this was the stance Buffy came to have in S7 as this general in an army of potentials, she was all with the seriousness and the speeches so there wasn't time for so much of the intimacy and the quipping with the other scoobies. This got in the way I feel much more so than her relationship with Spike.