Whose Show Is It Anyway?

[Moscow Watcher]

Icarium
Artificially destroying Buffy's friendships to make Spuffy look all the more special

This is where I disagree completely. Buffy's friendships weren't destroyed in season 7 as they weren't destroyed in The Yoko Factor or in When She was Bad. Characters overcoming their disagreements is a tried-and -true narrative trope - and a writer has to create the disagreements to make it work.

Why would Giles, Xander and Willow bother to consult with Faith and Spike about that?

Long story. No, really 🙂 I posted the first story in 2009, I write a sequel. Basically the events went AU in season 5: Xander saved the day and Buffy didn't die in The Gift. Now, in s7, they all work together against Caleb whose plan is to kill and resurrect Buffy, because her death and resurrection will upset the balance and bring The First.

Willow dealing with the magic addiction and the death of Tara. And no, this happening off-screen doesn't count as a well told story, mind you.

Willow was dealing with magic addiction in season 6. In season 7 she was dealing with the consequences - her guilt and her fear to use magic. It was shown onscreen in Lessons, Same Time Same Place, Conversationsd With Dead People, The Killer In Me, Get It Done and it culminated in her triumph in Chosen.

Maybe finding a job to help Buffy financially, deciding on post-graduate studies, basically having some semblance of normal life too. Dawn working hard to become helpful for the group while having to deal with Buffy's aloofness and the death of yet another parental figure just a few months ago. Xander reconnecting to Willow and Buffy, arguing with them and Giles whether to put the Potentials in danger more to make them learn how to save their skins or concentrate on protecting them by keeping them away from all dangers. Buffy recognizing that she wants to live after all, opening up to her friends, seeing much of herself in the Potentials instead of treating them as useless burden, trying to get a better job, dealing with Giles's return, etc.

I'm sorry, but I find these issues... I was about to say "boring", but I'd rather say "too everyday". Willow finding a job? I could get interested in such a story only if it turned out that the computer firm where she works is run by demons who have a secret plan to destroy the world. That could be cool. But the story about Willow toiling to earn money wouldn't inspire me. The same with Xander. Arguing about Potentials? Please, no. Buffy and Xander getting better jobs? Again, I'd be interested if finding these jobs would lead to The Initiative-like arcs. But if the goal of the arc was to make Buffy earn more money, then I'd be very disappointed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doppelgang - welcome to our neverending debates. 🙂

Back in season 5 Joss said to Nick Brendon that he's "pretty much done" with Xander - if Nick was ready to quit, he'd kill the character off (Xander was the initial candidate for Glory's human host). But Nick said that he'd have liked to stay, so his story was continued.

As to Willow, Joss' plan "A" was to reunite her with Tara in the end of season 7, but Amber Benson decided against returning, so they hastily created a new love interest for Willow.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Oh, and I would completely obliterate Buffy telling Wood she would let Spike kill him. Without question that is her all time lowest moment.

Huh. To me, that's one of the most powerful "go girl!" moments that showed how far Buffy as a person had grown and matured over the course of six-and-a-half years. It's about as close to a "low moment" as her refusing to take further orders from the CoW in S3.

 

[Kean]

Huh. To me, that's one of the most powerful "go girl!" moments that showed how far Buffy as a person had grown and matured over the course of six-and-a-half years. It's about as close to a "low moment" as her refusing to take further orders from the CoW in S3.

The slayer, telling the son of another slayer, that she would allow the vampire who killed his mother, kill him, if his agenda got in her way?

This was not a female empowerment moment. It was not a hero's moment. It was appalling.

 

[Hale Caesar]

This is where I disagree completely. Buffy's friendships weren't destroyed in season 7 as they weren't destroyed in The Yoko Factor or in When She was Bad. Characters overcoming their disagreements is a tried-and -true narrative trope - and a writer has to create the disagreements to make it work.

Are you serious? Season 7 ruined the Core Four. Remember when Buffy told Giles she had nothing else to learn from him in front of everyone? That was basically like her kicking dirt on him, and the worst part is their relationship never recovered from that moment

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Hale Caesar - I am serious. I didn't feel that the Core Four were ruined. My heart hurt for Buffy and Giles - but I knew that eventually they'll reconcile. And their scene in the hall of the school was beautiful. "The Earth is doomed." 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

Are you serious? Season 7 ruined the Core Four. Remember when Buffy told Giles she had nothing else to learn from him in front of everyone? That was basically like her kicking dirt on him, and the worst part is their relationship never recovered from that moment

I disagree. The hero outgrowing the mentor bit is pretty much a staple in stories like this, and they do eventually make up, though I don't think they ever fully return to their Watcher/Slayer dynamic. I dunno if you read the comics, but I liked their relationship in Season 8.

I don't think Season 7 ruined the Core Four. It depends on what you want to see, I guess, but personally, I don't think that the Scoobies can ever really return to their pre-resurrection dynamic and I just don't think they'll ever be as close again. With as many apocalypses they have between them, they'll probably always be very good friends, but I don't think the Core Four could ever really be, well, the core of the story again.
But I do wish some more attention had been paid to their friendship and how it develops in the story, even if I don't necessarily want a happy ending for them. That said, I also don't think it was necessarily Spike's/Spuffy's fault that not enough attention was paid. I genuinely enjoy Season 7, but I think the heavily flawed central arc and all the new characters introduced also contribute greatly to how the Core Four was treated in the writing process. There was a LOT of stuff going on.

 

[Icarium]

This is where I disagree completely. Buffy's friendships weren't destroyed in season 7 as they weren't destroyed in The Yoko Factor or in When She was Bad. Characters overcoming their disagreements is a tried-and -true narrative trope - and a writer has to create the disagreements to make it work.

The Yoko Factor, Dead Man's Party and so on are clearly intended as the exceptions to the rule. In S6-7 the moments where the characters show any sort of genuine friendly feelings are the exceptions, IMO. As I said, the show paid some lip service to the idea that everything was just fine at the end but I bought it almost as much as I bought The First as a smart and capable villain, Kennedy and Andrew as compelling, fully-fleshed characters and Spike being tortured by drowning - that is to say not at all. The very fact that Spike was pretty much the only one who gave a damn about Buffy being pulled out of heaven tells me that, yes, the writers very clumsily were trying to prop up Spuffy by pissing al lover on Buffy's friendships.

Willow was dealing with magic addiction in season 6. In season 7 she was dealing with the consequences - her guilt and her fear to use magic. It was shown onscreen in Lessons, Same Time Same Place, Conversationsd With Dead People, The Killer In Me, Get It Done and it culminated in her triumph in Chosen.

Yes, it was shown from time to time but the story was way too peripheral and the only time it had any dramatic punch was Conversation with Dead People. And even that was hampered by the refusal of Amber Benson to participate. This is in sharp contrast to the tons of attention and importance that Spike's redemption story got.

I'm sorry, but I find these issues... I was about to say "boring", but I'd rather say "too everyday". Willow finding a job? I could get interested in such a story only if it turned out that the computer firm where she works is run by demons who have a secret plan to destroy the world. That could be cool. But the story about Willow toiling to earn money wouldn't inspire me. The same with Xander. Arguing about Potentials? Please, no. Buffy and Xander getting better jobs? Again, I'd be interested if finding these jobs would lead to The Initiative-like arcs. But if the goal of the arc was to make Buffy earn more money, then I'd be very disappointed.

I for one always thought the show was much better when it had a clear connection to the real world. Mundane issues combined with supernatural, that's what BtVS used to be all about and even the demons were metaphors for real life problems early on. Once it turned into a supernatural romance melodrama/soap-opera it mostly either bored me to tears of repulsed me, to be honest. Later on, the only use for real life problems the writers had was to heap some more misery on Buffy - her mother dies, she has a crappy job, bratty sister, etc. Superhero shows are dime a dozen, Buffy and her friends being so strongly connected to the real world is something I really love. Later on, the characters of freaking "Charmed" were probably dealing more with mundane issues than Buffy and pals and that's just wrong. 🙂

 

[Tranquillity]

I think the point that this very detailed analysis of the show makes is that there is a distinct pattern evident across seasons 2 to 7 - In season two Angel is Buffy's focus. He doesn't get an excess of lines but is talked about a lot by other characters and is a focal point for the story. In season three this pattern is repeated with Faith. In season four it is repeated with Riley, in season five, Dawn, in season six, Willow and in season seven Spike. So, after seeing this, I've got to concur with the author of the analysis and agree that Spike didn't "take over" and is only following the precident set by the writers with earlier 'buffy-centric' characters.

Willow's role is smaller in season seven but this also follows another pattern in that she has a peak in season four, a drop in season five, a peak in season six and another drop in season seven - I would speculate, without having done a shred of statistical research that Willow peaked again during season 8. Xander and Giles significance did take a downward turn but the data suggests that this pattern emerges from season three onwards, long before Spike ever entered the scene. That being said, Xander and Willow always get a lot of lines and always have more than any other character beside Buffy and even though these might not be centric to their characters on an individual level, they have, just as they've always done, the function of supporting Buffy's story. Giles of course is the mentor character and Buffy's growing independence naturally necessitates his reduced importance (but that is a story in itself) and of course, Anthony Head chose to leave the show by his own volition so other characters can hardly be blamed for his reduced presence.

In season seven you also have a greatly expanded cast and they are doing a lot of the talking (1/3 of the lines are spoken by non-core or new characters) I think this contributes greatly to the perception that "spike took over" too.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Icarium
The very fact that Spike was pretty much the only one who gave a damn about Buffy being pulled out of heaven tells me that, yes, the writers very clumsily were trying to prop up Spuffy by pissing al lover on Buffy's friendships.

Scoobies "gave a damn". A lot. They discussed the ways to help Buffy in "Tabula Rasa" - the next episode after OMWF where they found out that Buffy was in heaven. They tried to find her a boyfriend on "Older and Far Away". They were there for her.

As to propping up Spuffy, writers had a lot of much more effective tools. F. ex., they could send Spike to his soul quest in the first episode of the show instead of the last arc.
I don't know if you watched the dailies of Spuffy scenes in season 6 (they're on YouTube, you can easily find them). What's interesting, the director always used the take in which Sarah played Buffy the harshest way possible.

The season was about "things fall apart". So everything fell apart to be reassembled and reworked in season 7.

 

[sosa lola]

I disagree about Spike stealing scenes from the core four -eh, three if you exclude Buffy. Spike was Buffy's love interest, of course he was going to get a lot of focus. I think the blame is on the new characters and lack of interest in Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn and Anya. Not Spike. Honestly, Spike was the best thing written in S7, even much better than Buffy herself. So, I'm glad he was there to give the poor season some good points.

Also, Spike in S7 and Angel in S2 isn't a good comparison at all. Why doesn't Angel get blamed for stealing the show when he was the focus of S2? (I disagree that Spike stole the show by the way, don't want anyone getting their knickers in a twist.)

First, Angel's storyline in S2 affected all the main players -aside from Cordelia and Oz, while Spike's affected mainly Buffy and her relationship with Giles.

Second, when Angel wasn't in the screen, the Scoobies were, but when Spike wasn't in the screen, the potentials were.

Third, S2 was filled with a lot of great Scoobies moments, characters interacting with each other all the time, and S7 lacked that sadly, especially when the potentials were introduced.

I do agree though that the number of lines and screen time don't mean squat, what counts are character's arc and character's involvement with the main plot. For example, Xander may have more scenes and dialogue than Spike, but I could barely remember what he did other than having a lovely scene with Dawn, dating yet another demon in a very pointless storyline, and losing his eye. But ask me about Spike and I'll give you pages of what he had done/happened to him. Xander didn't have an arc in S7 "“unless if you wanna count that bit about holding the house together and when Xander got hurt the house fell down, which went unnoticed by most of the audience. Spike had the soul arc, the trigger arc, the Wood arc, the friendship with Buffy arc, and last the champion arc. All five arcs got a lot of focus and careful writing to make them shine and be unmissed by the viewers. Who are the main characters in S7? I'll say Buffy and Spike for the storylines they have and the impact they left, by no means would I answer Xander or Dawn.

do you have ideas about the development of Willow's, Xander's and Giles' character arcs within the parameters on the season?

Something that you wanted to see? Something concrete, like "instead of Spike, The First abducts and tortures Xander". Or "instead of Spike, it's Willow, who calls everybody worthless and ungrateful, goes after Buffy, gives her a pep-talk and the snuggles with her on the couch".

I'm curious, because I'm currently writing a Xander-centric version of season 7 and I'm fascinated by the group dynamics that refuses to change.

Do you mean for your fic or for the show? I personally don't want Xander stealing anything from Spike. I like Spike's arc as it is. But I can give you ideas for the characters themselves.

 

[KellGreen]

I disagree about Spike stealing scenes from the core four -eh, three if you exclude Buffy. Spike was Buffy's love interest, of course he was going to get a lot of focus. I think the blame is on the new characters and lack of interest in Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn and Anya. Not Spike. Honestly, Spike was the best thing written in S7, even much better than Buffy herself. So, I'm glad he was there to give the poor season some good points.

Yes, this. I wish they would have done MORE for the others, not less regarding Spike.
The potentials were overwhelming, and I really didn't care what happened to them, since I never felt much other than annoyance (except I kinda remember and like Viv, I think?) I know it was a huge thing and all, but I wish they had kept the focus on the core group (including Faith), not scattered with all these new girls. This is just my opinion, and I am sure there are some/many who liked the storyline; i don't begrudge that, but I would definitely have enjoyed it more with more focus on the Scoobies (and NO kennedy - it felt way too forced for my liking).

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Sosa Lola
Do you mean for your fic or for the show? I personally don't want Xander stealing anything from Spike. I like Spike's arc as it is. But I can give you ideas for the characters themselves.

I'll PM you. *hugs*


After readinng this thread again, I wonder if Joss is right when he revamps the characters and their dynamics so drastically. Deird1 in her essay The Vegemite Effect sums up the dilemmas of serialized entertainment very well: we want the show to be fresh and interesting and unexpected - yet we want it to be the same. Sometimes the changes are too hard to deal with.

I wonder how fandom would have reacted if Joss executed his "plan A" for Xander in season 7 - killed him off in "Dirty Girls" and made him the face of The First for the remainder of the season. It could be awesome - I think Nicholas Brendon pulls off evil very well. But, with both Xander and Spike dying, the final shot of the girls standing there with Giles and Andrew - the only male characters to make it out of there alive... I think I would've been pissed.

 

[Icarium]

They discussed the ways to help Buffy in "Tabula Rasa" - the next episode after OMWF where they found out that Buffy was in heaven.

Yes, they discussed it...yet they didn't actually do anything to help Buffy other than Willow's memory erasing spell which was portrayed as a terrible thing to do. That's what I meant by the show paying lip service to the idea that these people were still really close friends. I am not saying that they should have been able to magically (pun intended) cure Buffy's depression with the power of love but they should have at least tried to alleviate her suffering a bit. Riley in one episode manages to uplift Buffy's spirits more than all her friends combined in a year. Giles abandons her, Tara never comes to visit unless Buffy herself makes the first move, Xander is all about his stupid wedding, etc.

As to propping up Spuffy, writers had a lot of much more effective tools. F. ex., they could send Spike to his soul quest in the first episode of the show instead of the last arc.

They could but they wanted to keep him (sort of) evil, so to offset that they dragged the rest of the cast to Spike's level. His support for Buffy is nothing to write home about but compared to the complete lack of that which she gets from Willow, Xander and Dawn it starts to seem a lot.

 

[sosa lola]

I wonder how fandom would have reacted if Joss executed his "plan A" for Xander in season 7 - killed him off in "Dirty Girls" and made him the face of The First for the remainder of the season. It could be awesome - I think Nicholas Brendon pulls off evil very well. But, with both Xander and Spike dying, the final shot of the girls standing there with Giles and Andrew - the only male characters to make it out of there alive... I think I would've been pissed.

I'm glad he didn't kill Xander off. While it would have been awesome to see Nicholas Brendon play evil again -he's so good at it- I would never sacrifice Xander for that.

I have a lot of ideas for the cast, especially Xander in S7, but no time to post them now, I'll do that tomorrow.