Why Angel or Spike

[bespangeled]

No - no - I started the thread and everything you said was exactly why I made the thread! New people bring different eyes and mindsets, and those always broaden my way of seeing the show. Offhand comments have given me some terrific insights. I came to the show too late to have gone through the shipping wars, and so I don't have scars like others do. I have been in shipping wars in other fandoms , so yeah...napalm.

I remember my mama bear Spike stage, and Angel was awful because he was really mean to Spike. Spike should get Buffy because Spike should get everything he wants. I think it was fanfiction, and rewatching - then somewhere along the line I realized the show was better if I didn't just focus on Spike. It was fanfiction that opened me up to Angel, and then I watched the series. (I can't express how much I adore Wesley😀)

Did anyone here start as a major fan of one or the other - or anyone else - and find themselves opening up.

 

[EVIL UU]

I hate that the Bangel vs. Spuffy stuff has reduced one of the greatest female superheroes of all time into...a Mary Sue.

I wouldn't call Buffy a Mary Sue but I do agree that it is extremely detrimental to the character. It makes Buffy predictable and boring. Buffy cannot grow up. Buffy cannot have a relationship. Buffy cannot fall in love. Buffy cannot even have sex apparently. Buffy cannot do anything that matters. It's straight up Victorianism.

If BtVS is about growing up then it needs a new lead character 'cause that's not what Buffy's about anymore. She is a teenager who got old, stuck in her old ways, stuck with her old conflicts, stuck with her old love interests. It's pretty lame, really.

 

[white avenger]

It's the shipping. The love triangle has been the worst thing to happen to this 'verse since its conception. Everyone knows it, but nobody wants their guy to lose, so it's a never ending cycle of bitterness that Joss is going to allow to continue because he is a troll/it sells/he's owned by the Marvel Machine now and just doesn't care anymore. And the people who don't give a crap either way or actively hate both vampires/relationships are SOL because it's all anyone talks about.

But it really doesn't have to be the shipping. Why does Buffy have to love Angel OR Spike? Why can't more people simply admit that Buffy, like any other person, is perfectly capable of loving, of being IN LOVE WITH, both of them? Why does it have to be an either/or thing? Joss is never going to actually resolve the issue anyway. Right now, we've got Spike in San Francisco and Angel in London. That's an entire continent,an ocean, and even the International Date Line between them, with air flights going back and forth every day. Buffy could have the best of both worlds, and run up Frequent Flier points while she's commuting between one boyfriend and the other.

 

[bespangeled]

I wouldn't call Buffy a Mary Sue but I do agree that it is extremely detrimental to the character. It makes Buffy predictable and boring. Buffy cannot grow up. Buffy cannot have a relationship. Buffy cannot fall in love. Buffy cannot even have sex apparently. Buffy cannot do anything that matters. It's straight up Victorianism.

If BtVS is about growing up then it needs a new lead character 'cause that's not what Buffy's about anymore. She is a teenager who got old, stuck in her old ways, stuck with her old conflicts, stuck with her old love interests. It's pretty lame, really.

I would like to point out she can have sex with men she is not in love with. I like the fact that Angel moved on to some degree. But I don't think that Buffy will ever be able to give herself the way she gave herself to Angel - that can be kinda tragic for a high school kid. Yeah, she never did grow up in some ways, and those ways would have been really interesting. 

But it really doesn't have to be the shipping. Why does Buffy have to love Angel OR Spike? Why can't more people simply admit that Buffy, like any other person, is perfectly capable of loving, of being IN LOVE WITH, both of them? Why does it have to be an either/or thing? Joss is never going to actually resolve the issue anyway. Right now, we've got Spike in San Francisco and Angel in London. That's an entire continent,an ocean, and even the International Date Line between them, with air flights going back and forth every day. Buffy could have the best of both worlds, and run up Frequent Flier points while she's commuting between one boyfriend and the other.

Love is so hard to define I think it is impossible to explain. My view that Buffy didn't love Spike simply meant she was unable to give him what he needed in the love department. I think that's why he told her she didn't love him. I know I couldn't explain what real love is - and certainly not for relative strangers.

Comics I assume😱

 

[thetopher]

But it really doesn't have to be the shipping. Why does Buffy have to love Angel OR Spike? Why can't more people simply admit that Buffy, like any other person, is perfectly capable of loving, of being IN LOVE WITH, both of them? Why does it have to be an either/or thing? Joss is never going to actually resolve the issue anyway. Right now, we've got Spike in San Francisco and Angel in London. That's an entire continent,an ocean, and even the International Date Line between them, with air flights going back and forth every day. Buffy could have the best of both worlds, and run up Frequent Flier points while she's commuting between one boyfriend and the other.

Because there will alway be people who will never let it go (with the encouragement of the writers) and will take any opportunity to take a swipe at one ship or the other, looking for any sign that 'their' ship is better than the other one.

It's baffling and its petty and it reduces all three characters.
Angel got his own show precisely because the writers wanted to explore his character away from Buffy, to plum the depths at it were. And he's has his own comic book as well- seperate life, seperate story. Shouldn't Spike get that same opportunity? I mean, if the Spike fans see him as equal to Angel then he should go and do his own thing as well right?

Also the ship thing has enlarged to such a degree that its starting to drag down the plots (this has been happening on and off since S6), it was never about the ships for me (and for a lot of people incidentally)- it was about Buffy and the Scooby gang growing up together.
And now Buffy is being stopped from growing up/moving on as a character. 🙁

 

[Taake]

Shouldn't Spike get that same opportunity? I mean, if the Spike fans see him as equal to Angel then he should go and do his own thing as well right?

Didn't Spike have a few issues of his own? I thought I saw some around but it's possible I'm confused since I stopped following the comics a long time ago.

Did anyone here start as a major fan of one or the other - or anyone else - and find themselves opening up.

Personally I'll always be a bigger fan of Angel, regardless of shipping, because I just connect better to his character so to speak. I tend to be drawn to his type of character and I tend to dislike Spike's type of character. The fact that I do like Spike I think is mainly a great credit to James Marsters.

So I would say that I open and close to Spike in intervals, mainly because I struggle to 'get' his appeal/person at times, but I do like him - sometimes I even love him - but also sometimes, it's work to tolerate him. 😉

 

[bespangeled]

Because there will alway be people who will never let it go (with the encouragement of the writers) and will take any opportunity to take a swipe at one ship or the other, looking for any sign that 'their' ship is better than the other one.

It's baffling and its petty and it reduces all three characters.
Angel got his own show precisely because the writers wanted to explore his character away from Buffy, to plum the depths at it were. And he's has his own comic book as well- seperate life, seperate story. Shouldn't Spike get that same opportunity? I mean, if the Spike fans see him as equal to Angel then he should go and do his own thing as well right?

Also the ship thing has enlarged to such a degree that its starting to drag down the plots (this has been happening on and off since S6), it was never about the ships for me (and for a lot of people incidentally)- it was about Buffy and the Scooby gang growing up together.
And now Buffy is being stopped from growing up/moving on as a character. 🙁

True and true and don't forget the dinghys! There are ships that impinge on those three that are in canon. Cangel - both acknowledged they were in love. Not a real problem with Fangel - and the name is a hoot - nor do I think many ship Sparmony. While Buffy was not in love with Riley or Spike (IMO), they also obviously affect on Bangel, in part because Buffy does make connections that mean a lot to her.

When we get so wedded to one character and one pairing it kinda gives a different lens than if it doesn't.

Well, I like to see Spike do his thing so I read some damn good fanfic - and a lot of pairings. I haven't been able to even force myself to read the summaries. And even if Bangel happens, it's half a century maybe, and then Spike will be there for Angel - insulting him, tormenting him, making him angry enough to want to live. Do you think the comics mean Spike is unequal?

Oh the ship thing dragged down season three according to a lot fans. We live in the age of social networks crafting television. 

Personally I'll always be a bigger fan of Angel, regardless of shipping, because I just connect better to his character so to speak. I tend to be drawn to his type of character and I tend to dislike Spike's type of character. The fact that I do like Spike I think is mainly a great credit to James Marsters.

So I would say that I open and close to Spike in intervals, mainly because I struggle to 'get' his appeal/person at times, but I do like him - sometimes I even love him - but also sometimes, it's work to tolerate him. 😉

The funny thing is that, in person, I wouldn't really like either character. But Wesley - I would really love to be a friend of Wesley's. Benefits optional...😉

On the show - I like them both as individuals but I love the way they interact. I think that's the writer in my more than anything else.

 

[thetopher]

True and true and don't forget the dinghys! There are ships that impinge on those three that are in canon. Cangel - both acknowledged they were in love. Not a real problem with Fangel - and the name is a hoot - nor do I think many ship Sparmony. While Buffy was not in love with Riley or Spike (IMO), they also obviously affect on Bangel, in part because Buffy does make connections that mean a lot to her.

When we get so wedded to one character and one pairing it kinda gives a different lens than if it doesn't.

Exactly, treat Bangel/Spuffy just like any other ship- as in 'it's just one of many possible relationships that are out there'. Also, if applicable 'let the characters move the hell on' although to be fair this does apply to Spuffy more than Bangel.

Do you think the comics mean Spike is unequal?

Well, yeah. Just like Buffy and Faith were never equals because it was always Buffy's show. They were both slayers but when Faith was good she was basically there to make Buffy look better by comparison, even in S7. (Which is why, in general, Faith seems to grow a lot more on Angel- she's allowed to)

Now that Faith has a comic title (and a fairly good one at that-arguably better than Buffy's title) I tend to see her more as her own person, instead of comparing her to Buffy all the time. Shes on her own path, got her own problems, lots of them having nothing to do with the other slayer. It's been good for her character so far.
Spike, in contrast, is suffering because he still looks like a side-kick. He was good in S5 of Angel because (like Faith) he was allowed space to grow as a character away from Buffy. I'm not sue but I think that extended to Angel: AtF (I could be wrong) and then in S9 he's back to being lumped in the Buffy and Co.

Spike had his own comic with IDW and it was well regarded by some, so why not give him his own stories again?

Oh the ship thing dragged down season three according to a lot fans. We live in the age of social networks crafting television.

True, many say that Bangel dragged down S3 and that Briley spoiled a lot of S4/5- each to their own.
But I never thought that the stories or plot arcs suffered in those seasons. (The Initiative is its own problem, separate from Riley)
For example in the first half of S3 Angel and the Bangel plot barely makes a dent in the storyline, 'Revelations' 'Lover's Walk' and 'Amends' are pretty much all you get.
Who knows, maybe it was just that the writing was more solid/balanced in the early seasons and its the ships that get the blame.

 

[Silverspike]

"Also, if applicable 'let the characters move the hell on' although to be fair this does apply to Spuffy more than Bangel."

Oh really. Why?

I mean Angel has long since moved on from Buffy too. Christ he did have 5 seasons of his own show to do that in, to say nothing of his relationship with dear old Cordy. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

Oh really. Why?

I mean Angel has long since moved on from Buffy too. Christ he did have 5 seasons of his own show to do that in, to say nothing of his relationship with dear old Cordy. 🙂

😕 Uh, thats my point.

Bangel has moved on to a large degree- Angel and Buffy have been allowed to have other relationships outside of themselves but Spuffy hasn't.

It's still a will they/ won't they (they won't) with Spike/Buffy and its holding both characters back because it's so stale and same-y. Because at the moment S10 is retredding S9 in that respect.
Let them get away from each other for a while and only get them back in the same comic when you have a different story to tell.

Although hopefully it won't a 'Twilight' type of story- I maintain that there was no reason to drag Angel into that storyline except for the express purpose of trying to destroy Bangel.
It was still 'ooh, see after all these years these two still can't have sex because otherwise the world is in peril!'
I mean, what was the point? Buffy and Angel hadn't seen each other in ages- they had their own lives/missions, Angel's still a cursed vampire so he can't ever be with Buffy, there's evil in the world so Buffy still does the slayer thing. It added nothing new or interesting, it was just 'Wow, Angel's kind of a dick.'

 

[Mr Trick]

Well it makes no difference because its Spike all day, everyday, and twice on sunday, so there!😛

 

[white avenger]

Now that Faith has a comic title (and a fairly good one at that-arguably better than Buffy's title) I tend to see her more as her own person, instead of comparing her to Buffy all the time. Shes on her own path, got her own problems, lots of them having nothing to do with the other slayer. It's been good for her character so far.
Spike, in contrast, is suffering because he still looks like a side-kick. He was good in S5 of Angel because (like Faith) he was allowed space to grow as a character away from Buffy. I'm not sue but I think that extended to Angel: AtF (I could be wrong) and then in S9 he's back to being lumped in the Buffy and Co.

Spike had his own comic with IDW and it was well regarded by some, so why not give him his own stories again?

More accurately, Faith only shares a title with Angel, and she has just recently begun to have her own separate story line there, rather than just being Angel's combination landlord and sidekick. The same thing could be done by having Buffy and Spike share a title and giving Spike his own story line. I doubt that there would be too many objections there.

Personally, I would love to see Spike and Faith get their own individual titles, that way, we could have a new comic every week, then the writers could work on a season finale crossover miniseries bringing all four main characters and their associated support cast together in a month long apocalyptic battle. Barring that, why not shuffle the pair ups next "Season," with Buffy and Faith together in one, and Angel and Spike in the other? That could be fun.

 

[thetopher]

It's true that Faith shares the title (but she is in the title, unlike Spike, which was my point) but some of the plots have revolved around her.
The resurrection of Giles was important to her on a personal level, she was conflicted about aiding Angel in his 'crazy train' quest as she called it. Then we had her Dad returning, her training the group of slayers such as Nadira, and he rebonding with, and then losing Giles to Buffy which didn't have anything really to do witth Angel.

Barring that, why not shuffle the pair ups next "Season," with Buffy and Faith together in one, and Angel and Spike in the other? That could be fun.

I would love this too- have characters that haven't interacted for ages stuffed in the same comic for whatever reason.
I want to see Dawn and Xander interact with Angel and Faith. I want to see Connor meet Buffy, Willow meeting up with Fred again. I want to see Buffy and Faith fighting side by side (I'll settle for just friends for now, or frenemies, or slayers who drive each other crazy- whatever) and the same with Angel and Spike.

If S11 should be anything it should be this- shake up the status quo. Banish half of them to another dimension, or the past, or an alternate future (...well maybe not) but mix things up- separate them and have them go through changes away from familial ties. Have people you really wouldn't expect to see together have to work together.
If there has to be a theme it should be 'characters are out of their element and stuck with people they wouldn't usually work with.' That could be refreshing. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

@thetopher said:True, many say that Bangel dragged down S3 and that Briley spoiled a lot of S4/5- each to their own.
But I never thought that the stories or plot arcs suffered in those seasons. (The Initiative is its own problem, separate from Riley)
For example in the first half of S3 Angel and the Bangel plot barely makes a dent in the storyline, 'Revelations' 'Lover's Walk' and 'Amends' are pretty much all you get.

I think that's kind of the problem - it doesn't make a dent. There are people who say the show should have ended after season 5, and people who say Angel should have left after season 2, or have been brought back but left immediately. Mainly he and Buffy were stuck in a pattern that kept repeating.

I like all 7 seasons, and I like Angel in season 3, for what it's worth.

 

[PassionBecoming]

I've never felt like making a choice between the two, either. I love them both for different reasons and have a love/hate relationship with them during certain parts of the series. It just depends on the plot line. I never truly dislike either. I feel like they each have a specific function and place in both series and I'm glad they are both there.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Don't you think the show kind of encouraged the audience to make a choice between one or the other? Who was better for Buffy, who loved her more, who deserved the Shanshu prophecy more, the stark diametrically opposed differences in personality etc. etc. The show always placed the two of them in direct conflict, all the way back to S2 and Spike's jealosy and opposition against Angelus. I'm not really surprised that the fans think of it in terms of making a choice between them, because that's how the two of them were presented on both shows. At least that is what it seems like to me. At many points the shows asked the audience tacitly to choose one over the other, i.e. who do you sympathize with, these two people in direct conflict in so many ways?

I like them both. I relate deeply with many aspects of Angel...and I enjoy Spike for what he is for the majority of his time on either show. I'm glad to have them both. I might seem to take a hard stance one side or the other from time to time on the boards, but it's only because that is the way the nature of the relationship on the show and the conditions for the popular dialogue about them at large has been established. I think the makers of the show consciously wanted that. I don't see how anyone could say differently. 
I just realized a lot of people made the same points I just made. I take their side then. A lesson to some of us: read everything before you post!

 

[RomanticSoul]

I'm trying to ease back into posting so I keep this short. For me it has nothing to do with shipping. I don't care about that aspect. One of them offends me on every level and I consider him to be a cancer on a show. The other less so, especially the cancer part.

I don't find Spike/James even remotely physically attractive so no cushion to soften the blow in that regard. Nothing more than a loser who later on becomes a bully that lies, demeans, belittles, insultes, stalks and violates people. His effect on the show as a whole and specifically Buffy as a character is something I will never forgive and one of the main reasons why I hate the later Seasons so damn much. Yes all my hate should be directed at the writers/producers (and I hate plenty) but it doesn't help that I find the character himself so disgusting.

With Angel I never quite reach that kind of level of strong negative reaction. Usually I'm too busy trying to figure him out. Doesn't mean I have never wanted to take a baseball bat to his head, because I have.

So in short for me it really comes down to personalities.

 

[bespangeled]

5 seasons - that must have been hard for you. Just curious, why did you watch? When I hate a character that much I usually stop watching. Spike is a lot like Angelus. Someone pointed it out to me - the scene where he was telling the Master he was taking Darla - that was very like Spike. I love Angel - sometimes I see that part of him peeking out.

 

[Mr Trick]

I'm trying to ease back into posting so I keep this short. For me it has nothing to do with shipping. I don't care about that aspect. One of them offends me on every level and I consider him to be a cancer on a show. The other less so, especially the cancer part.

I don't find Spike/James even remotely physically attractive so no cushion to soften the blow in that regard. Nothing more than a loser who later on becomes a bully that lies, demeans, belittles, insultes, stalks and violates people. His effect on the show as a whole and specifically Buffy as a character is something I will never forgive and one of the main reasons why I hate the later Seasons so damn much. Yes all my hate should be directed at the writers/producers (and I hate plenty) but it doesn't help that I find the character himself so disgusting.

With Angel I never quite reach that kind of level of strong negative reaction. Usually I'm too busy trying to figure him out. Doesn't mean I have never wanted to take a baseball bat to his head, because I have.

So in short for me it really comes down to personalities.

What I don't get is why you are linking Spike's persona (as in he isn't very nice to be around) to why you don't like him? Surely a show like this has to have characters who are not very nice. If not it wouldn't be very interesting.

 

[RomanticSoul]

5 seasons - that must have been hard for you. Just curious, why did you watch? When I hate a character that much I usually stop watching. Spike is a lot like Angelus. Someone pointed it out to me - the scene where he was telling the Master he was taking Darla - that was very like Spike. I love Angel - sometimes I see that part of him peeking out.

I'm ok with S2 Spike. And I know S2 Spike would laugh long and hard about S5 and beyond Spike before doing something drastic to avoid becoming that. But I can still watch S4 because there are awesome standalone episodes and since Spike is shoehorned into a lot of episodes that Season and in S5 (mostly with Dawn) it makes him easier to ignore. That's what fast forward buttons are made for after all. I actually did stop watching the show during it's innitial run sometime in S6 (probably the episode with the famous balcony scene). I made it through the tedious crap that was S5 so I thought I should stick it out, hoping it would get better. It wasn't until years later that I rewatched the whole series. Now I stick to Canonverse only (S1-S4) and the Dawnverse is some alternate reality with people that only look like the scoobies.

It's funny how the Spike-loving camp constantly asks me why I bother with the show. Even if I repeat the same reasons why over and over it's like I have to justify myself every time because not loving Spike = not a show worth watching. You people need to accept that everybody is just different. We all have different standarts and opinions, otherwise discussion boards like this one would be useless. You don't care for my opinion then just ignore whatever I write. But I answered the question of this thread and then I'm being asked to justify MY opinion.

What I don't get is why you are linking Spike's persona (as in he isn't very nice to be around) to why you don't like him? Surely a show like this has to have characters who are not very nice. If not it wouldn't be very interesting.

I like villains and I like bad guys and I don't see anything wrong with it. I like S2 Spike just fine. S4 Spike to a degree as well. S5 and beyond is where I have trouble. And please tell me you are kidding when you ask what Spike's persona has to do with me not liking him. I assume you have come across people you don't like. Maybe even people that offend you on a very basic human level.

Anyway I have nothing more to say to this because it's reaching the point of stupidity. Don't ask a question and when someone gives an aswer tear them a new one and ask them to justify themselves. And then ask redundant questions for the hell of it. Or maybe you are just doing it to get 'likes' from Silverspike