Why Angel or Spike

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I don't think the shippers hate each other, though I do notice that if you dislike the Spike character you are often called a Bangel that is 'blinded' by their Spike hate.

From what I have seen, both here and on other forums, that is a door that swings both ways. There have been just as many Spike fans accused of downplaying or totally ignoring the negative factors connected with Spike and playing up his positive ones (if they even accept that there is anything good about Spike at all) as there have been Bangels accused of being "blinded," if not more.

I think that it's much easier to forgive Angel of the majority of his shortcomings simply because all of the bad things that he did could be blamed on Angelus, who is pretty much universally accepted to be a totally different character. Spike, however, never had any sort of name change to denote his acquisition of a soul, and his "what's past is past. Let's start fresh today," attitude as opposed to Angel's brooding guilt for the things that he, technically, had no part in doing. The presence or absence of that "us" on the end of his name makes all the difference, or, at least, a large part of it.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
WHAT HE SAID! I mean, yeah.
Which brings us back to - Spike didn't change enough and therefore isn't souled enough. 😵

At least until he does change - but Angelus thought things through before he took action. His response to a soul is to go into himself and brood for a century until he realized (Buffy) that he could be a force for good. Spike was brash, impulsive and an adrenalin junkie. He dealt with having a soul his own way. And he had his less than a year.
 
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There have been just as many Spike fans accused of downplaying or totally ignoring the negative factors connected with Spike and playing up his positive ones (if they even accept that there is anything good about Spike at all) as there have been Bangels accused of being "blinded," if not more.
This post presents my point perfectly. It didn't address the issue of my post and reinforced that automatic Bangel title. Why if you say you do not like the character of Spike are you automatically deemed a Bangel?

It's funny that you can identify as a Spike fan, and not once mention Spuffy in your post, yet when you try to compare the opposite side, you dont say the word Angel but say Bangel instead. That is the very point I was trying to make.
 
Well without naming names theres a few very vocal hard core Bangel shippers who still congregate on a certain Bangel fan board and who have (in the past) said some incredibly patronizing/unpleasant things to anyone who didn't share their particular views. Luckily as the fandom has slowly died off they have ended up sticking mainly to themselves.
So what? Can you tell me how these "very vocal hard core Bangel shippers who still congregate on a certain Bangel fan board" have they ended up sticking mainly to themselves? and if "luckily"the fandom has slowly died off, how is it that they still congregate on a certain Bangel fan board? Maybe that fandom isn't as died off as you think it's.

If you have any complaints about that specific board, you may join them and discuss it with them. Don't you think it's more correct do in this way, rather than talking here of people who can't reply to your criticisms?
Damn. It's like watching an old movie seen over and over again. The story is repeating indefinitely ...again ...again... and again...
 
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Silverspike
Silverspike
Join that board with all it's irrational hate? Surely you jest hon. :D
This post presents my point perfectly. It didn't address the issue of my post and reinforced that automatic Bangel title. Why if you say you do not like the character of Spike are you automatically deemed a Bangel?

It's funny that you can identify as a Spike fan, and not once mention Spuffy in your post, yet when you try to compare the opposite side, you dont say the word Angel but say Bangel instead. That is the very point I was trying to make.

Yeah - it is more than Bangel and Spuffy. There are fans who have no ship or different ships with the same mindset. Again - why is it always Spike vs Angel?

I agree on saying Spike and Bangel - that is a hidden bias. I doubt it's on only one side but can't prove a thing and I don't want to go there.

There's a logic to those in the triangle taking a side. Why has it drawn in others? And we are back to the original question. Why Angel or Spike? The fact that the bias exists is presupposed in the OP. Why is it so strong even with people who ship only one or none?
 
Again - why is it always Spike vs Angel?.....And we are back to the original question. Why Angel or Spike?

MANY people disagree with me on this but I've offered my opinion on this several times before on these boards: I think the show to a large degree sets out to deliberately set one against the other, or show them as representing different and sometimes starkly opposed positions or perspectives or whatever the thing in question is. They are similar in some ways but VERY different in many other ways...specifically, they are different in instructive and illuminating ways when compared against one another....which I think was a conscious choice by Joss.

So yes, I think that the nature by which the two characters are portrayed contributes to the 'Angel versus Spike' widespread feeling. People feel more compelled to do so because the show kind of encourages it, if you ask me.

Anyway, it gets old repeating myself but yeah, that is the short version of it.
 
bespangeled
bespangeled
I think you're right - but it does that with other characters too. Buffy and Faith, for starters. A lot of the same dynamic. People don't react that way. So not sure that is all
Hmm the shipping wars. Seems to be the geek equivalent of a football (soccer) rivalry. In the big scheme of things it has nothing to do with you. You're not involved with either ship, nothing you say or feel about it will have an affect but it doesn't matter. You pick your ship throw yourself into it whole heartedly. Just like in football this creates a tribal mentality where you love your team and have a hatred for the opposition.

I think people just need that sometimes. It's just natural even if it doesn't make a lot of logical sense. Of course the trick is once you've grown up and can see it for what it is you should be able to love your team (ship), have a healthy dislike for the opposition ship but express that as friendly banter with fans of that ship. Generally not be a dick about it because really who does that benefit?
 
Yeah - shipping wars are a lot like teams. but I think there's more.

I think it's something in how we speak, and what we hear. Mr Pole put his finger on something there. I've been worrying away at it in the back of my head. As far as Spike is concerned, I tend to agree about the awful things he has done, though I don't express them the same way. But - it seems to me - that some fans won't be happy until I have a more emotional response. . Liking Spike, even while agreeing he is evil, seems to be an affront. It's like I have to hate him. I have not run into that with Angel - but that may be more a reflection of where I am and have been. I do know that I also agree with the bad that Angel has done, but I don't feel pressure to hate him. It's like Spike brings out an anger in people who aren't supporting an opposite team, or tribe.

But Mr. Pole pointed out how that can be rationalization. I didn't even see Bangel & Spike.

That is totally me trying to figure out my reactions - not saying it applies to anyone else.

😵😕😱😳😵😕🙁😉
 
Why Angel or Spike?
For me, and I say this again, it's not one or the other, and it's nothing to do with ship. Spike was a great character. It wasn't until season six that the character started to regress. But previously I liked both Angel and Spike. It was never an either/or thing. I totally detested the character in the first part of his time as a series regular on Angel. He was all snark. But, again, that is a big part of the reason I dont really care for the Xander character. Ask me why I dont like Willow.

I've stated plenty of times I thought the Tara character was wasted and not substantial but I am never called a Wozzer because of it.
 
"I've stated plenty of times I thought the Tara character was wasted and not substantial but I am never called a Wozzer because of it."

I dunno. Maybe because there are less hard core Tara shippers around on mass these days?
 
I think there are plenty of hard core Tara shippers en masse, I just think because Oz and Tara were not diametrically opposite to one another the assumption of ship is not instantly assumed.
 
I've have to admit I've seen in some places fans of Willow/Tara ripping into the OZ/Willow ship. Silly really.
 
I actually don't get why people take this sort of thing so serious to the point that they would start insulting others because they don't share their views.

Cathexis yo, ego investing.

Well without naming names theres a few very vocal hard core Bangel shippers who still congregate on a certain Bangel fan board and who have (in the past) said some incredibly patronizing/unpleasant things to anyone who didn't share their particular views.

Well, Spike/Buffy fans have their own fan board as well, don't they?

I've have to admit I've seen in some places fans of Willow/Tara ripping into the OZ/Willow ship. Silly really.

I just don't get it. I like Oz, I like Tara, I've grown to like Aluwyn too and Kennedy...she's OK enough, I guess. No, seriously, Kennedy's alright, especially in the comics. It's something I really like about Willow. All of the characters she's with are pretty damn decent and there's no repetition - she doesn't get to date another werewolf or another Tara. Willow is like the only thing her lovers have in common. It's pretty awesome in my opinion.
 
Why does always seem like a choice has to be made between Spike or Angel?

I keep banging my head on the idea that you can only chose one or the other - Angel or Spike. But that's the message that keeps popping up here. If you say something nice about Spike, then you must be down on Angel. If you say something bad about Angel the you must be a Spike fan. If you say something nice about Angel, then you must be down on Spike If you say something bad about Spike the you must be a Angel fan fan.

I started as a rabid Spike fan - my first time through I was mesmerized by his arc and Marsters performance. So I sat down and rewatched the show trying to figure out how the hell that was done and taking copious notes.. (Not really creepy - I'm an author, so I do that when something really works for me. Market research.) I ended up still a Spike fan, but with a more realistic image of all the show, the characters, lessons and dynamics. I still love Spike - he's original. He has obnoxious down to an art form, and he doesn't care if you like him...except when he does. He likes to be underestimated - and he can screw up big time. He is weirdly honest at times and effectively manipulative in others. He is alert and savvy enough to be able to break the Scooby gang down in one afternoon. He's mercurial and he likes it that way - he's full of contradictions.

I also watched AtS twice - found that I loved it...and I had a new appreciation, affection - yeah, I fell for Angel. He's got those subtle and not so subtle mannerisms on the surface and he's wrestling against the darkness in himself so strongly below the surface. Yeah, he like to believe he's in charge, and he is the one in charge. He carries the heavy burdens, and each time he falters he gets back up. He wants to atone more than he wants redemption - he is in it for the right reasons. He's not only out there helping, at the start he's also learning how to live and work with humans - how to connect - a skill he has never needed. He's learning who he can be on his own. I love the moody, the angst, the wicked sense very dry humor, the mistakes, pain, strength. There's someone still young and unsure inside, and that's tough to play. Boreanaz really grew as actor - and I think it bears the best fruit during Angel.

Between them there's over a hundred years of knowing each other no matter how often or seldom they meet. There is Darla, and Dru, and a shared history. They're all relatives in the sense that they know each other much more deeply than anyone else can know them.

So it's never an either/or choice to to me. Saying Angel did something bad doesn't mean I am comparing him to Spike. nor does it make Spike better than Angel. It not an owie or a hero contest. I tend to support Spike here on the board since he's the one more often attacked, but defending him is not attacking Angel. When I talk about believing that the two are seldom judged by the same yardstick, I am not saying one is better than the other. I like their shiny spots and their warty spots.I do ship them together but I also love them apart. Bangels and Spuffies have some bad blood between them, yeah. But I don't see Buffy as a trophy and I don't care who or if she chooses. There are reasons to dislike actions and choices both of them make. So why does comparing the two seem like it always has to have a winner?

To me it has nothing to do with Buffy and it's not about making a choice. Angel and Spike are so diametrically opposite that I could never like both, but this doesn’t mean that my dislike of Angel is a consequence of my liking Spike. I just find Angel to be the most twisted, contradictory and overrated character of the whole Buffyverse. I admit though that the reverse is true, that my growing love for Spike may come from my dislike of Angel, because being the only two souled vampires the comparison is inevitable and it always turns in Spike's favour. And I think this is something that enrages some of Angel's hardcore fans and it explains why there is so much irrational hate against Spike and his fans. So, yes, I agree with you when you say that it feels like a war that needs a winner, but I think the problem comes from that part of the Angel’s fanbase that cannot accept that something good is said about Spike or that something bad is said about Angel.
 
"Well, Spike/Buffy fans have their own fan board as well, don't they? "

Not a board dedicated to Spuffy they don't, just to JM.
 
And let's just admit this also: however you feel about him, spike is a very divisive, love him or hate him kind of guy, much more than anyone else on the shows. He just is. He is hard not to have a strong opinion about. I've read few people who are truly ambivalent about him. So maybe it really is spike, in a way. Like I said I like him.
 
I don't get it. Something happening on a completely different board?

It's simple. Somebody takes excepts (heavily edited) of arguements from these board and posts them someplace else- like another board or a blog or whatever- when the original poster can't see. And then this somebody and all his/her little pals can rip into the person making the comments with no risk of comeback.

Because these people's POV is so unsupported on these Buffy-boards and because they can really argue effectively, this is a way they can oh-so-cleverly get validation for their opinions. 😉
It's sad and pathetic but unfortunately nothing can be done, some people are just utter hypocrites. They love to dish it out but whine when it comes to taking it.

If you have any complaints about that specific board, you may join them and discuss it with them.

I've checked out this particular board (thanks btw) and found it full of fairly decent, articulate Bangel fans. Some of the analysis was a bit overrought but other stuff was decidedly deep and well thought out discussions.
These are the 'worst' Bangel fans out there? Seriously?


And while I might accept that the Spike/Angel 'divide' isn't entirely 'ship based (but this thread certainly seems to be focussed on that) then I think the intensity of some of the arguments comes from the shipping.
There just isn't the same ammount of vitriole directed at any other character comparison- not Buffy/Faith, Wesley/Giles, Tara/Oz, Cordelia/Buffy or whatever. Nothing matches it.

If there was suddenly to be announced a S11 comic entitled 'Angel & Spike', a lot of the ship-hate would disappate into nothing and we'd suddenly have a lot more Spangels around.

And let's just admit this also: however you feel about him, spike is a very divisive, love him or hate him kind of guy, much more than anyone else on the shows.

This is also a factor. People tend to either love the character or hate him. You just don't get the same level of divisiveness with Angel. You get a lot of 'I disliked him/hated him on Buffy but I liked/loved him on his own show' kinda thing- that's much more common.
 
"It's sad and pathetic but unfortunately nothing can be done, some people are just utter hypocrites. They love to dish it out but whine when it comes to taking it."

Now then, is this aimed at anyone on here?
 
i think Spike fans are more aggressive when it comes to angel vs Spike. But Angel fans sometimes act more childish.

I cant understand an Angel fan who would hate Spike just because they prefer Angel, i prefer Angel and i love Spike.
 
Now then, is this aimed at anyone on here?

Yes, in fact that whole part of the answer was to illustrate what one particular poster did to me. This poster is on this thread. I even have the proof that it all happened, when this person really showed their true colours. 😀
 
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