Why Angelus but no Spikelus?

[bespangeled]

There's been a lot of discussion at times as to whether Spike changed enough after he was souled. Of course, the measuring stick is the complete split between souled Angel, and unsouled Angel(us) because he is the only other souled vamp..

I see two reasons for starters - Angelus was cursed with a soul, and the demon has since refused to work with the soul. Both are present at all times (Orpheus) but only one can be dominant at any time. When the demon is at the forefront, it can completely repress the soul (Eternity). When the soul is at the forefront it can leash the demon to a large degree.

Reason two - their temperaments. Angel, as Cordelia said, like to brood about his past to the point where he is alphabetizing his sins. He believes that if he does enough good, then his past will be washed clean and he will be a human once more. (I truly believe it's having his past washed clean is the important part - becoming human is a signpost or validation)

Spike's demon wanted the soul - so demon and soul have a degree of balance. They are able to work together toward a common goal. He was lucky enough to be chipped for 3 years before he went to get his soul - he didn't have to go cold turkey. The chip was a muzzle, and not being able to hunt and kill humans, but being able to interact with them in a different more positive way, put him closer to souled than Angelus started from.

Temperaments - Spike doesn't believe that anything can change the past. He can't have his sins washed clean because they have already been committed. But he can work toward doing good as a form of atonement for those sins. He's not much for self reflection (brooding) and he looks to the present - the now - and what good he can do right then and there. What he chooses to do is extremely different from what the demon would do before the muzzle, and very different from what the muzzled demon did.

Both Angel and Spike learned about atonement from the same source - WWBD.

 

[Silverspike]

I think you've answered it all there. 🙂

 

[Blair]

But did Spike really want a soul? I think he grew to accept it, originally he just wanted his chip out.
I do agree that he was lucky to have his 'muzzle' for three years so he didn't go through human blood withdrawals (until the First used him)

I think Spike was so in love with Buffy that he thought having a soul would bring him closer to her. He already started fighting for good when he was chipped. I don't think him and Angel can be compared- different circumstances.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Spike started fighting for the good side when he was chipped because he found that the chip caused pain if he attacked a human but no problem when he fought a demon and he had missed being able to get into a good fight. He used that as proof in "Family" that Tara was completely human and not a demon.

We see examples of vampires retaining the personality of their human hosts throughout the series. The Judge used Dalton as his first victim because he read too much. Spike is still the poet and the personality who understands situations such as Willow being at the end of her rope after Oz left, the Chumash not accepting any apologies in "Pangs" or his statement to Buffy and Angel that they will never be friends. We see Spike at first as the attacker at the school PTA meeting but even when he comes over to the side of good, his personality does not change that much.

 

[cryptwarmer]

But did Spike really want a soul? I think he grew to accept it, originally he just wanted his chip out.
I do agree that he was lucky to have his 'muzzle' for three years so he didn't go through human blood withdrawals (until the First used him)

I think Spike was so in love with Buffy that he thought having a soul would bring him closer to her. He already started fighting for good when he was chipped. I don't think him and Angel can be compared- different circumstances.

I don't think Spike wanted a soul. As you say, he wanted Buffy.

It's like not liking school but getting a degree because you want a certain job and you need the degree to get the job. Then you have the degree and while working on it you realize that maybe you want something else after all, or that new avenues have opened up to you and you decide to change course and go in another direction.
 

There's been a lot of discussion at times as to whether Spike changed enough after he was souled. Of course, the measuring stick is the complete split between souled Angel, and unsouled Angel(us) because he is the only other souled vamp..

I agree with all your explanations, but will take a shot at this anyway. 😛

Part of it is their basic personalities. Liam was a drunken nere do well to start out with. Spike was an educated upper class man and basically a softie.

Angelus was Liam on steroids. No self control and raging anger. Angelus wasn't trying to rise above anything. He didn't care about improving himself, he was more about dragging others down.
Angel, ,post soul HAD to change direction. He could no longer be about dragging people down. And his focus had always been what he did to others, not what he did to himself.

William the bloody was fueled by hurt and shame. He reveled in the freedom and not having to take crap from anyone. He had to keep convincing himself he was about evil, he never really was, he was about no longer being the ponce he feared he was. He was always trying to rise above. Spike didn't care about dragging anyone anywhere. Even in S6 when he was telling Buffy she was a creature of the night, he didn't see it as trying to drag her down. He thought he was just helping her adjust to her new state of being.

Post soul, Spike was still trying to rise above, be better than he'd been. Same agenda, but shinier.

 

[white avenger]

There's been a lot of discussion at times as to whether Spike changed enough after he was souled.

Spike changed, not quite as much as Angel, but he did change. The main reason that it isn't so noticeable in Spike's case is that it was a much more gradual thing, and we got to see almost all of it. With Angel, he went from heroic Angel after one night with Buffy, to diabolical Angelus, in all his glory, then back to once more heroic, but somewhat confused Angel again a few episodes later with the casting of a spell. Compare the Spike who first came to Sunnydale in "School Hard" to the Spike who we saw at the beginning of Season 7, and the change is far more noticeable.

 

[cerocket]

I think that's one point that's often over looked.

There are tons of reasons that have to do with their specific personalities and experiences, but I think it's really important to remember that we first meet Angel nearly a 100 years after he was ensouled. When we see him in Darla (Angel S2E7) he is certainly no longer Angelus, but he is still trying to hook-up with the Whirlwind and tries to pass by feeding off of bad people when they are together. Not the same transition as Spike to be sure, but still a far cry from the Angel that we meet in Buffy S1.

 

[Athena]

See, this has always interested me, so I posted about it when I joined and got some really insightful responses about how souls work in the 'verse, because the differences between the two are very clear at first look. Generally Spike has always been Spike, but we do see a very subtle change from when we first see him in S2 throughout the rest of the seasons up to 6 and then when he's ensouled in 7.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Part of it is their basic personalities. Liam was a drunken nere do well to start out with. Spike was an educated upper class man and basically a softie.

This is what I always believed too. Liam was not as nice a person as William. William brought over certain parts of his character like familial love and romantic love that weren't as developed in Liam. Spike was never as evil as Angelus, and was only the number 2 bad vampire in the world because Angelus taught him to be that way.
The only thing I can think to add is that there is a "withdrawal" from human blood. Angel would have gone through that withdrawal at the same time as he got the soul where as Spike was already past that went he got his. Remember how awful he looked when he first went to the scoobies because he needed help? And when he was tied up in the chair after they figured out he was feeding again in season 7? Withdrawal looked fairly painful.
 

I see two reasons for starters - Angelus was cursed with a soul, and the demon has since refused to work with the soul. Both are present at all times (Orpheus) but only one can be dominant at any time. When the demon is at the forefront, it can completely repress the soul (Eternity). When the soul is at the forefront it can leash the demon to a large degree.

/QUOTE]
some how I missed this info! I had no idea the soul was still in there. Are you sure? I thought the souls were out their floating around, wasn't Angels in a bottle or something before they put it back in?

 

[bespangeled]

But did Spike really want a soul? I think he grew to accept it, originally he just wanted his chip out.

Why would he want the chip out? If he was interested in killing again, why not just kill Buffy - the chip doesn't work on her any more. Even after the AR, she trusted him enough to bring Dawn over, and he could definitely kill Dawn pretty quickly, with only a headache as a side effect. I don't see any reason for hi to want the chip out.

Back when Dru came, he had the choice of joining her and going back to being a killer - instead he threatened to stake her for Buffy. I think he made that choice then - monster or man.

I do agree that he was lucky to have his 'muzzle' for three years so he didn't go through human blood withdrawals (until the First used him)

Maybe - though we never saw any vamp go through it until season 7. Angel was drinking human blood in season 1.

I think Spike was so in love with Buffy that he thought having a soul would bring him closer to her. He already started fighting for good when he was chipped. I don't think him and Angel can be compared- different circumstances.

That's why I compare them - different circumstances. I think Spike changed in spite of himself - went from wanting to be a monster to thanking Buffy for treating him like a man. But part may be that poet - Angel can be happy alone and brooding. Spike needs some sort of connections - be it Dru or Buffy, minions or Scoobies. So he adapted because he had to. Just like he beat up demons because he had to have something to fight, be cause he had to fight.

I don't think Spike wanted a soul. As you say, he wanted Buffy.

I thin he wanted both. He definitely wanted Buffy, but he cared about her enough to try to make sure she was safe - even from him. That's how I see the "What did I do? Why didn't I do it?" He was caught between being a monster and being a man - so he chose the soul knowing that he could handle it better than the ponce, and with the soul would come all the rest of what he wanted - including a life with Buffy most of all.

Angel, ,post soul HAD to change direction. He could no longer be about dragging people down. And his focus had always been what he did to others, not what he did to himself.

Angel, post soul, was all about himself for a century. It wasn't until he met Whistler and saw Buffy that he became interested in helping others.

Not the same transition as Spike to be sure, but still a far cry from the Angel that we meet in Buffy S1.

Spike did have a template to work with - Angel just had a curse. That's another major difference. Spike expected the soul to make a difference, to make him a good man - Angelus just got crippled, destroyed. But I do agree that comparing newly souled Spike to Angel who has been souled over a century doesn't really work.

Spike was never as evil as Angelus, and was only the number 2 bad vampire in the world because Angelus taught him to be that way.

I think he was just as evil -but in his own way. He embraced that evil, everything Angelus taught him. Season 2 Spike was no cuddly puppy. I suspect it pissed him off that, as evil as he was, he still came in 2nd!

 

[cryptwarmer]

Why would he want the chip out? If he was interested in killing again, why not just kill Buffy - the chip doesn't work on her any more. Even after the AR, she trusted him enough to bring Dawn over, and he could definitely kill Dawn pretty quickly, with only a headache as a side effect. I don't see any reason for hi to want the chip out.

He'd want the chip out so he could eat people again, go on his merry way , set up in some new place and be Big Bad again.

 

[bespangeled]

He'd want the chip out so he could eat people again, go on his merry way , set up in some new place and be Big Bad again.

Then why didn't he go off with Dru? She was willing to kill and give him fresh blood. He got a nice taste of hunting with her at the Bronze. And with Dru there watching his back, as others have said he probably could have found a demon doctor somewhere to get the chip out.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

But did Spike really want a soul? I think he grew to accept it, originally he just wanted his chip out.

Wrong. Spike went to Africa to get a soul. It's canon.

 

[cryptwarmer]

Then why didn't he go off with Dru? She was willing to kill and give him fresh blood. He got a nice taste of hunting with her at the Bronze. And with Dru there watching his back, as others have said he probably could have found a demon doctor somewhere to get the chip out.

Spike's moods and plans change regularly, even in the span of one episode. He goes from wooing Buffy to threatening to kill her, or to let Dru kill her, then back to saving her again.

He's torn. Spike vacillated between two things, wanting to resume his life as the Big Bad, and wanting to be with Buffy. Up until he got his soul, it was a coin flip as to which he would ultimately choose.

As time went by he leaned towards being good and being with Buffy, but the writer's show us that after the AR he was still torn, likely because he saw that even in love he was still capable of hurting Buffy.

Spike was a loose cannon. One of the things that he hated about loving Buffy was that it kept him from being the Big Bad, something he very much enjoyed being.

 

[bespangeled]

Spike's moods and plans change regularly, even in the span of one episode. He goes from wooing Buffy to threatening to kill her, or to let Dru kill her, then back to saving her again.

When did he threaten to kill her? He threatened to sic Dru on her, but not to do the job on his own. And his price for not siccing Dru on her was that she show she cared about him, that he had some sort of chance with her. H tries out being the Big Bad again with Dru, then he chooses to threaten to kill Dru for Buffy's affections. I mean. Angel killed Darla and Buffy loved him!🙄

He's torn. Spike vacillated between two things, wanting to resume his life as the Big Bad, and wanting to be with Buffy. Up until he got his soul, it was a coin flip as to which he would ultimately choose.

He vacillated a lot - but this was the episode where he made his choice. He was willing to kill Dru to have some chance with Buffy - then even after she refused to give him any hope he still saved her. Even Dru knew she was now beyond her reach, no longer evil.

I didn't see Spike wanting to be the Big bad after he threw in with Buffy against Glory. I did see a rather pissed off Spike once again following in the footsteps of Angel. It's why he used the word spark instead of soul at first. Had Angel never gotten his soul, and fallen in love with Buffy, I see zero chance of Spike doing either.

 

[Iwearthecheese]

Angel/Angelus is a dichotomy- a man at war with himselfd and his nature. Part of his strength comes from that near-contant war but its also his weakness. Sometimes he wants the war to be over and gives it to fear/darkness- pushes people away or whatever.

Spike doesn't have that internal struggle. The demon and man/soul whatever are in basic agreement; fighting, Buffy/romance in general, smoking, punk rock, its all good.
So there's no need for a distinction. We all know the soul means something- we've been shown it both on Buffy and on Angel. A soul means some sort of choice, the chance to do good things. That chance can be taken or squandered, depending on the individual.