Why Buffy?

[Gum Gnome33]

The Bangel vs Spuffy debate is a decade old, and it seems we've had it out from every angle; we constantly argue about which vamp was right for our heroine and who she might have loved more. But one thing we hardly ever bring into question, (that I know of) is the constant, unfaltering love that these two vampires have for Buffy. Each risks his life for her, fights by her side, and (arguably) tries to do right by her, assuming that pesky soul clause isn't in the way, in any given story arc. Like or hate either creature, you've probably never been of the opinion that he didn't love our main gal. But...why Buffy?

One big question, two very different cases, of course. There is the brooding vampire with a soul who is tortured by the deeds of his demon shadow, looking perhaps for a connection-- a reason to go on and maybe do some good while he's at it. He's over two centuries old and after all he's seen and done, nothing can pull him out of his slump except for...hmm...a 15 year old girl? Wha? Ok, she's pretty and adorable. And sad--he takes pity on her. But at the time he doesn't know her from a hole in the wall and yet so suddenly, so profoundly, she touches his soul and makes him want to fight by her side, giving him a reason to live again? Was she just in the right place at the right time? What's really going on there? Obviously, we can take the easy way out and chalk it all up to a goopey, romantic story that doesn't have to really take into account any matters that don't come directly from the heart. Or, *shudder* that matters of the heart can't really be discussed. Instead, I'd like to hear if you have any, more specific ideas?

Then there's our platinum creature of the dark--proud and devious and passionate to a fault. His evolution as a character and progression to a point at which he can fall in love with someone like Buffy makes lots of sense to me; (surprise, surprise). But again...why Buffy? Why really? I understand the inspiration. There's a rapport that leads to respect for who she is and what she does, in spite of his soullessness, (and largely thanks to his limitations). It's a great story through and through. But why love? And, (maybe more importantly), why such unconditional love? I'm sure it has much to do with his personality but it must be her, as well. After all, he did give up on Dru eventually when she'd lost interest in him. Buffy on the other hand could give him the brush-off with all the chaos demons she wanted and Spike would never stop loving her. Why? As a Spuffy, I have my own opinions, but I'd like to hear yours!

Btw, just so there isn't any confusion, by asking "why," I'm not saying that I don't believe it's possible, and am not challenging any 'ship. I do think it'd be interesting to hear people's thoughts on Buffy's specific appeal when she rushed into the hearts of these two old, master vampires who had really seen and done it all by the time they met her.

 

[caritas08]

I think it's because Buffy is strong yet vulnerable at the same time. There is a part of both Angel and Spike that wants to be protected (emotionally) yet wants to do the protecting. The same might be said of Xander.

Girls like Buffy appeal to that type of guy whereas someone like Oz might not feel emotionally vulnerable where they feel like they need someone strong like Buffy (just my speculation as Oz is the only man on the show that didn't show attraction to Buffy at one time or another).

Nice thread as I'm getting kind of bored with the Bangel/Spuffy debate as I ship both 😛

 

[Kerri with a K]

Wow. That is definitely a different way of looking at it both ships. And I agree, why not take a look at why her. What is it about Buffy that makes everyone go crazy?

Take a step back for a minute and look at Xander and Buffy - they were friends even before Angel and Buffy copulated. For Xander, much like Angel and Spike, Buffy is a strong, independent girl (then woman) who doesn't NEED anyone to rely on, which I can totally understand. The lack of need for anything sometimes can intrigue men and make them want what they can't have, so to speak (and this is only my speculation). Sure, Buffy's adorable and likeable and funny, but I think her strength and hidden vulernability are just as appealing.

Going back to Angel and Spike... Buffy's strength can be seen as appealing because she can go 10 rounds and come back for more, whether it's sparring or whatever. But I think she makes her brooding vamps feel more human. She says a few times over the course of the series that she's just a girl and she wants a normal life (who doesn't?). I think her need to be "normal" and human can make either vampire want to be close and normal and human. Especially since both Angel and Spike have lived so many years (both with and without souls), Buffy could essentially make them feel young again.

There's just something about her... 🙂

 

[KellGreen]

Spike fell for Buffy out of his respect for her fighting skills and strength, after School Hard where he had the upper hand (as in, later, when she's even with him). He loves a good fight, and loves an opponent who can hold their own against him. I think the start of his thing for her is that she initially becomes the Slayer that got away. Also, after Angel/us has so damaged her emotionally, I think Spike feels for her resultant pain and insecurities.

It's my understanding that Liam/Angel/us has always had a thing for young ladies...

 

[Wild At Heart]

I think it was because even though she was human, she was the slayer so she lived in the shadows like they did & they knew that her power was rooted in darkness. It was a part of who she was. Angel knew that & he wanted to help her & protect her as much as he could. That created a love for her inside of him that grew once they got closer. The more they realized the reality of their relationship & that they couldn't be together, the more they wanted it. It's these kinds of relationships that are full of passion like that, that have the biggest impact on you in every way IMO. For Angel, it also has a lot to do with timing. When Whistler showed him Buffy being called, he was ready to help her & maybe try to find some kind of redemption.

I think Spike was attracted to Buffy because he saw through to the real her when nobody else could. He was attracted to the darkness inside of her as well. He wanted to bring that out of her & I think a part of him wanted her to grow to not be ashamed of that. But over time, he developed true feelings for her, especially once he got his soul back. He also wanted what he couldn't have in a lot of ways. I think in another aspect, he wanted her to care about him & to have respect for him like nobody really had before.

Those are just my opinions though. 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Love works in mysterious ways.

I don't have any other explanation but this one. They looked at her and saw something they never did before. Why Buffy? Who knows. Why anyone falls in love with anyone? Love is one of the most mysterious things in the world because it is unexplainable.

 

[VisionGirl]

Well, why do any of us love her? Let's ask the boys themselves.

Angel: I saw you before you became the Slayer.
Buffy: What?
Angel: I watched you, and I saw you called. It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps... and...and I loved you.
Buffy: Why?
Angel: 'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own.
Buffy: That's beautiful. Or taken literally, incredibly gross.
Angel: I was just thinking that, too.
[from Helpless]

Spike: A hundred plus years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of. You. Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you - it has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try... I've seen your kindness, and your strength, I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
[from Touched]

 

[Chosen Enemy]

This is a very interesting question. As you said, both Angel and Spike fell for Buffy for different reasons. As for Angel, it takes me back in time. Angel tells Buffy that he fell in love with her when he saw her because he could see her heart. Now Spike, he is a love's bitch. He's all about the heart, he's a poet, has a poet's heart.

We can also say the (too) obvious reason that is the attraction matter. Maybe she's right their taste. They like who she is AND what she is. No wonder her human boyfriends couldn't handle her. Come to think of it, I think part of the reason Angel and Spike fell for Buffy is BECAUSE she's a slayer, while the other boyfriends couldn't make it last BECAUSE she's a Slayer. The humans wanted human Buffy, and the two vampires wanted both, human Buffy AND slayer Buffy.

However, both vampires have never fell for other Slayers before. I think Spike has always been attracted to Slayers. But he's never fallen for them, for the reason that even though buffy is a Slayer, we're always being reminded that she is different from other Slayers. She's both different from other slayers, and different from other humans. Her and the two vampires live in a world that other don't. They connect.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way, but...I've seen the show too, and I know those quotes well. I'm still asking the question, though...

In Angel's case, this: "'Cause I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see. And I worried that it would be bruised or torn. And more than anything in my life I wanted to keep it safe... to warm it with my own," is beautiful and poetic but isn't enough to explain why he fell for her so suddenly and completely. It only explains that he did. Think about it: any person who loves another could say those words, literally, and it would make sense. I'm asking about the "why" of it. I think this is a really great explanation from [MENTION=9880]Wild At Heart[/MENTION]:

I think it was because even though she was human, she was the slayer so she lived in the shadows like they did & they knew that her power was rooted in darkness.That created a love for her inside of him that grew once they got closer. The more they realized the reality of their relationship & that they couldn't be together, the more they wanted it. When Whistler showed him Buffy being called, he was ready to help her & maybe try to find some kind of redemption.

With Spike, this quote: "When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you - it has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try... I've seen your kindness, and your strength, I've seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are," though it is one of my absolute favorite of all time, doesn't account for, IMO, what drew him to her in the first place. It's what he says when he regains his soul and can really see with perfect clarity just how much he loves her, and why that is. But I don't think it was quite the same, initially. I love this, again from [MENTION=9880]Wild At Heart[/MENTION]:

I think Spike was attracted to Buffy because he saw through to the real her when nobody else could. He was attracted to the darkness inside of her as well. He wanted to bring that out of her & I think a part of him wanted her to grow to not be ashamed of that. But over time, he developed true feelings for her, especially once he got his soul back.

And then I think this applies really well to both, (from [MENTION=10291]Kerri with a K[/MENTION])

But I think she makes her brooding vamps feel more human. She says a few times over the course of the series that she's just a girl and she wants a normal life (who doesn't?). I think her need to be "normal" and human can make either vampire want to be close and normal and human. Especially since both Angel and Spike have lived so many years (both with and without souls), Buffy could essentially make them feel young again.

 

[VisionGirl]

The humans wanted human Buffy, and the two vampires wanted both, human Buffy AND slayer Buffy.

Hmm, Riley said that he wanted it all, the whole package. But yes, it was probably more than he bargained for. And Buffy in turn might have underestimated his ability to understand & be there for her.

However, both vampires have never fell for other Slayers before. I think Spike has always been attracted to Slayers. But he's never fallen for them, for the reason that even though buffy is a Slayer, we're always being reminded that she is different from other Slayers. She's both different from other slayers, and different from other humans. Her and the two vampires live in a world that other don't. They connect.

This is so true, especially when you think of the fact that they are vampires with souls, or in Spike's case a chip then a soul (and a trigger LOL). They are anomalies, so is she. This is foremost in my mind since I just finished reading the Twilight arc & recalling Giles words: "They are the best of their kind...the first of a new kind."

 

[hazzard]

excellent thread!

one of the reasons i think it was buffy, for both of them, was because buffy represented a different path than the one "creatures of the darkness" traditionally took.

in the case of both angel and spike, they were eventually tortured (both with and without souls) by their lack of humanity, their lack of ability to fit in with the world in a meaningful way. especially spike, who arguably brought the most humanity with him when he was turned.

buffy always wanted a "normal life" and to be a "normal girl," and she was the first slayer to have family and friends, a support system and some kind of life outside of the slaying. for angel and spike, this represented a different way of living and gave a new meaning to the world and perhaps allowed them to better cope with immortality and all of the things in their respective pasts.

buffy was the slayer that broke all the rules and changed the slayer line and lore forever by also being a person, as well as a slayer. she allowed angel and spike to be men, as well as demons, and seemingly loved both halves of their respective beings equally.

the three of them walk together in this in-between space.

 

[Mithol]

I think that Spike's love for Buffy came after the sexual attraction, which was revealed to him by his subconscious in a dream. I find that sometimes being attracted to a particular person never crosses your mind until it does, and then you wonder why you never saw it before. Then he had the chip (so he had almost given up on killing her entirely) and he had the hots for her. I think that once he started paying her that sort of attention he saw her for what she really was and then he fell in love with her strength and her inner darkness and her whole person.

As for Angel, I think when he said he loved her at first sight, he wasn't saying that he fell in love with her at first sight. He saw her true self and her vulnerability and he knew what she would have to face, and that combined with his yearning for redemption inspired him to want to protect her. Then I think once he got to know her he fell in love with her because he saw how strong she had become and what a great Slayer and a great friend and a great young woman she was rapidly turning into.

But really, who wouldn't fall in love with Buffy? Like someone mentioned before, Oz was the only guy on the show who never fell in love with Buffy (but as we know he only ever had eyes for Willow).

Seriously though, gender and sexual orientation aside, I'd choose to date Buffy over anyone else on the show. xD

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Hmm, Riley said that he wanted it all, the whole package. But yes, it was probably more than he bargained for. And Buffy in turn might have underestimated his ability to understand & be there for her.

Yes, Riley thought this is what he wanted. But he couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle the Slayer part in Buffy. That's why it didn't work. I think he tried forcing the slayer thing on himself, to love it. But there were a few scenes that showed that he wanted a girlfriend, not a Slayer. But for his bad luck, Buffy IS a Slayer, there was no chance seperating between human Buffy and Slayer Buffy. He expected her to be what he wanted her to be, but she wasn't and couldn't. I think if the demon had seperated between Slayer Buffy and Buffy Buffy like he planned to, Riley would have chosen to be with Buffy Buffy and not the Slayer. Because of many reasons.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

So many good ideas!

I think this explains it so well:

in the case of both angel and spike, they were eventually tortured (both with and without souls) by their lack of humanity, their lack of ability to fit in with the world in a meaningful way. especially spike, who arguably brought the most humanity with him when he was turned. buffy always wanted a "normal life" and to be a "normal girl,".... for angel and spike, this represented a different way of living and gave a new meaning to the world and perhaps allowed them to better cope with immortality and all of the things in their respective pasts. the three of them walk together in this in-between space.

I think that Spike's love for Buffy came after the sexual attraction, which was revealed to him by his subconscious in a dream. I think that once he started paying her that sort of attention he saw her for what she really was and then he fell in love with her strength and her inner darkness and her whole person.

Exactly, he needed to realize that he was attracted to her before he could realize, (admit), that he had feelings for her--for obvious reasons having to do with being a vampire, the attraction had to be the catalyst. It's always so much fun for me to watch how quickly that becomes love.

As for Angel, I think when he said he loved her at first sight, he wasn't saying that he fell in love with her at first sight. He saw her true self and her vulnerability and he knew what she would have to face, and that combined with his yearning for redemption inspired him to want to protect her. Then I think once he got to know her he fell in love with her because he saw how strong she had become and what a great Slayer and a great friend and a great young woman she was rapidly turning into.

Totally agree.

I think he tried forcing the slayer thing on himself, to love it. But there were a few scenes that showed that he wanted a girlfriend, not a Slayer.

Exactly; of course he loved the idea of a strong woman but he wanted a normal girl. In contrast, Angel and Spike loved the idea of a normal girl but also wanted/needed the darkness. Buffy needed a little monster in her man, Riley needed a fighter with much more of a normal background like his own, (Sam), Angel and Spike needed a bit of a monster in their woman, with a whole lot of down to Earth charm and lightness mixed in.

 

[Mithol]

So many good ideas!
Exactly, he needed to realize that he was attracted to her before he could realize, (admit), that he had feelings for her--for obvious reasons having to do with being a vampire, the attraction had to be the catalyst.

Oh, I would have said that was more to do with being male than with being a vampire. xD

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Haha ok you got me there, LOL. I just meant that he couldn't yet consider having feelings for a human, let alone the slayer, and it was much easier to consider that he was extremely attracted to her. 🙂