Why could Buffy, Cordelia and Willow seperate Angel from Angelus but Xander couldn't?
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thrasherpix
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I'll have to watch it again as I don't remember that.
In Phases he tells Buffy Angel isn't the same person, right after he dusted Theresa at the funeral home.
In Phases he tells Buffy Angel isn't the same person, right after he dusted Theresa at the funeral home.
And in Becoming, Pt 1 in the Library when Buffy and Willow tell the Gang about Restoration, Xander refers to Angelus as Angel
All of them refer to Angelus as Angel in S2. The Angelus name wasn't presented until S3 Buffy by Wesley and it carried on in AtS, but in S2 every character called Angelus Angel, not just Xander.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Yes but, Xander constantly brings up Angel killing Jenny. So he thinks of Angelus and Angel as one person. And that Angel doesn't deserve to live because he killed Jenny (from Becoming when they argue about the ensouling in the library), despite the fact that Angel (the soul) is innocent there.
I've never understood Xander there but only because if anyone should know how it feels, it's him. When he was possessed by the hyena spirit it made him do things that he normally wouldn't if he was in the driver's seat, so to speak. How he didn't see the identical situation here is beyond me.
thrasherpix
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I just saw it again. Xander definitely sees Angel and Angelus as the same person, much as the gypsies did. To him, reensouling Angel would be to let Angelus get away with his crimes, and even if he saw the curse as punishment, there are plenty who prefer the death penalty to life imprisonment.
Of course, he has always hated Angel out of jealousy and also dislike against vampires in general, and confirmation bias is strong in our species. I do think he had a point in that Buffy wanted her boyfriend back and thus overlooks a lot she normally wouldn't (she'd go even further with Spike), though where he falls short is that it's not the sole criteria. (And I agree that Xander should've been more sympathetic given his stint as hyena-boy, though one could ask how Xander would've dealt had he actually raped and killed while possessed and then be freed from it with the memories, much as Angel has as a vampire on a much larger scale, would he feel compelled to pay for the crimes of the hyena?)
I personally believe Giles hated Angel as much as Xander did (certainly after Angelus tortured him), but he was much more pragmatic about it, and refusing to let his personal feelings overcome his rational mind.
Of course, he has always hated Angel out of jealousy and also dislike against vampires in general, and confirmation bias is strong in our species. I do think he had a point in that Buffy wanted her boyfriend back and thus overlooks a lot she normally wouldn't (she'd go even further with Spike), though where he falls short is that it's not the sole criteria. (And I agree that Xander should've been more sympathetic given his stint as hyena-boy, though one could ask how Xander would've dealt had he actually raped and killed while possessed and then be freed from it with the memories, much as Angel has as a vampire on a much larger scale, would he feel compelled to pay for the crimes of the hyena?)
I personally believe Giles hated Angel as much as Xander did (certainly after Angelus tortured him), but he was much more pragmatic about it, and refusing to let his personal feelings overcome his rational mind.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Much as it pains me to defend Buffy when it comes to her vampire lovers, but she made it clear first that she didn't know what to do and then to only do the spell because it might stop Angelus from awakening Acathla. Xander was the one who gave Buffy a motive (wanting her b/f back) she didn't have in that particular instance.
I think he would have done the same thing he did in the episode. Pretend not to remember. In that instance it was 'only' eating a pig, gunning after Willow and assaulting Buffy and he already pretended. Can't see him do differently if it was even worse. Later Seasons Xander might come clean.
That's a very interesting point. The Buffy mythology is incredibly unclear about how a soul works. Are we our souls? When a soul leaves a body, isn't that soulless being still us but without a conscious? If Angelus got a chip and was unable to hurt humans, would he go through the same development Spike did? The only reason Spike was able to change according to the human ways was that chip that prevented him from killing anyone, as well as falling in love with Buffy and later caring about those she loved like Joyce and Dawn.
The difference between the soul and the hyena incident was that Xander was possessed by a foreign being. The hyena wasn't Xander. But Angel and Spike without souls were still Angel and Spike but with the disability to tell between what's right and what's wrong.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Well it would have been nice of Whedon & Co. to make a show bible, something that is essential for supernatural/sci-fi shows. This way the rules of the verse are clear to every viewer. On Buffy it seemed like they had rules set up in the beginning and then later just changed them for whatever story they wanted to tell. Which is why we all end up with different views on the soul, demons, vampires and so forth.
I don't view it like you do for example. The demon is basically a foreign entity entering the human body, causing the soul to leave so that said demon is 100% in control of the body. But the demon is basically a blank slate with the only 2 attributes being blood lust and a connection to evil. But it has no personality of it's own. The vampire forms it's personality out of the former humans memories and emotions.
But the chip is not a soul. Spike still is a demon with the same urges because the demon is pure evil. The chip is a simple behavior modification device. What made him 'fall in love' with Buffy could have been anything. Too many electric jolts from the chip? The behavior modification of the chip screwing with the demons perception? Since the writers neglected to tell us how Spike got there by literally having him wake up from a wet dream 'in love', we will never know.
How is that different from vamping? When a vampire is made it's the human's body being possessed by a foreign entity. When Angel (the soul) is in the driver's seat he wouldn't have killed Jenny. He kind of proved that when he saved Jenny's life earlier in the Season. Take Angel out of the driver's seat, all you have left is an evil demon whose natural state is to do evil. That's why I view the situations as similar. The hyena took over the driver's seat in Xander's body but it was still clearly operating on Xander's feelings and emotions. Otherwise why would Xander have treated Willow like he did or tried to go after Buffy as his mate?
Monkey Pants
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I think Xander logically knew that Angel and Angelus were different, he just hated Angel plain and simple and kind of used things that Angelus had done as an excuse as to why.
Fuffy Baith
Yea I think that's it
That's not entirely true, the name Angelus was used a few times in S1-2, by Darla, Drusilla and Giles, IIRC. Of course, no one from the Scooby gang referred to Angel-sans soul as Angelus as a way from distinguishing that from souled Angel.
Hardly an identical situation - the likelihood of Xander being possessed by a hyena spirit once again isn't any greater than that of anyone else suffering that (or at least anyone else living on the Hellmouth). Angel's the only one whose curse obeys a vaguely defined "moment of happiness" clause, plus he has proven how dangerous he can be as a vampire. Him losing his soul again is a greater threat than Xander (or someone who lacks a century of experience killing people) being turned into a hyena or a vampire or something like that. Once Xander decided that this pesky soul was there to stay, he was perfectly fine with allowing Angel to live or even helping save his life. To me that doesn't sound like thinking that the soul and no soul versions are the same.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
IN S3 Xander doesn't distinguish between Angel and Angelus when he acts as cheerleader so Faith can go kill him.
Xander in Revelations was more about hurting Buffy than punishing Angel IMO, he was betrayed by her hiding Angel and wanted to hurt her by accusing Angel for harming Giles.
Xander was such an ass in those early S3 episodes.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
Nothing like inciting murder just because you are pissed at a friend. Good times.😛
I'm still wondering though why Cordelia is included in the topic question. On BtVS Cordy never separated Angel/Angelus and arguably she never did on AtS either.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I'd like to give Xander a little more credit; seething anger I get, sneaky petulance I don't.
In Xander's shoes I could understand if not condone his anger towards Angel because hey, the jerk's still alive after all he's done and also Buffy is kissing him. Even if he isn't evil maybe he will be again soon. I's not rational but its emotion response.
But killing Angel to punish Buffy? That seems incredibly harsh and far too calculating for Xander. *shrug*
Kana
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To be honest I don't think the debate in Becoming says too much about Angel's personal identity but to do with personal responsibility. I agree that Cordy shouldn't be included as she actually agreed with Xander in Becoming.
Even if one subscribes to the idea that Angel and Angelus are the same person, the argument still works on both sides. Buffy argues what happened to Angel wasn't his fault. If the soul is a conscience and that conscience was forcibly removed from him, one could argue that a souled Angel shouldn't be judged on the crimes of his soulless counterpart. Xander would then argue that not having a soul is no excuse for the evil he committed and he should be punished rather than rehabilitated.
Interestingly enough, for a Watcher, Giles tends to treat Angel(us) as one individual. See Revelations and Amends for support.
Even if one subscribes to the idea that Angel and Angelus are the same person, the argument still works on both sides. Buffy argues what happened to Angel wasn't his fault. If the soul is a conscience and that conscience was forcibly removed from him, one could argue that a souled Angel shouldn't be judged on the crimes of his soulless counterpart. Xander would then argue that not having a soul is no excuse for the evil he committed and he should be punished rather than rehabilitated.
Interestingly enough, for a Watcher, Giles tends to treat Angel(us) as one individual. See Revelations and Amends for support.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
That's how I always saw it. Xander is not actually concerned that Angelus might be on the lose. He's playing pool, alone, at night in the Bronze after the 'Angel is back' reveal. His anger is towards Buffy for various reasons. When Faith joins him in the Bronze he deliberately eggs her on and because Faith doesn't know Angel or the whole story, she of course jumps to the 'kill' option. And Xander wants to WATCH. How effed up is that? Wanting to watch someone murder a person just because you are pissed at a friend. He even tries to stall Buffy later in the library and rub it in her face that Faith is off to kill Angel. Xander's actions from the Angel reveal on show that he's not actually concerned about Angelus being on the lose or getting lose in the future. It's all about his anger towards Buffy.
After Jenny's death and his torture is when Giles adopts this thinking (Revelations and Amends are AFTER both). Before then we never saw him equate Angel and Angelus.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
But then, what is Xander supposed to do? Go after Angel alone? They all confronted Buffy with what they know and then Giles told them all 'that's enough' and that's the end of it. End of intervention.
Xander is concerned about Angelus going on a rampage which is why he jumps at the chance when Faith drops by with 'you'll got a secret.' Faith has superpowers so now Xander can get her to kill Angelus where he can't.
To say Xander is doing it just to hurt Buffy is...well, if that were the case Buffy never should've forgiven him. I mean- ever. That's a special kind of malice towards your close friend.
Actually Xander wants to join in. He 'called crossbow.' 🙂
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
How about NOT wanting to murder a souled being for starters? No one is asking him to go after anyone. No one.
No, he is not worried about Angelus. If he were he wouldn't be out alone at night. Buffy has told everyone it's Angel, not Angelus, who is back. Which is why Xander can comfortably play pool in the Bronze because he knows he's not in any danger.
But Xander knows it's Angel, not Angelus. Xander actually doesn't care whether it's Angel or Angelus, he wants him dead, PERIOD. What Xander is actually doing is sending Faith off to kill a souled being. Just because he both hates that person and is pissed at Buffy for not killing said souled person.
Well what other reason does Xander have then? Save everyone from Angelus who isn't even there currently? Nope. He hates Angel and he doesn't trust Buffy to do what needs to be done (despite the fact that she already did last Season), on top of being pissed at Buffy for being anywhere near Angel.
And of course he gets forgiven. Just like Spike. These two guys can do whatever they want and rarely does it have any repercussions for them. Worst that happens is the person they hurt doesn't speak to them for a few days.
Worst part is that Xander constantly involves other people in his mission to get Angel/Angels killed. He did the same thing in Becoming, misrepresenting Willow and possibly driving a wedge between Willow and Buffy by lying. He does it again here, by using Faith. Bad enough that they excluded Faith and Post was pulling her strings but Xander using her on top of that helped sow the distrust between Faith and Buffy even more. But this is also always brushed off by the show.
Skanky Vamp
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I always thought that Xander wanting to kill Angel was more punitive towards both Angel and Buffy. Punish Angel for being a vampire and Buffy for choosing to love a monster and hide his return from them. I never saw it as Xander being altruistic.