Why Did Buffy Believe In Spike?

white avenger

white avenger
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This may sound like a strange question coming from as strong a Spuffy supporter as I have always been, and I have my own personal answer to the question, but I really don't believe that the question has ever been specifically asked here, so...

Why did Buffy believe so strongly in Spike almost from the very moment that she discovered that he had a soul. She killed Angel at the end of Season 2, never hesitated to try and kill Faith in Season 3, and never really trusted her after that, even in Season 8, she seemed quite ready and willing to kill Dark Willow in Season 6, and she was ready to kill Anya in Season 7. So, what was there about Spike that made her totally believe in, protect, and support him, even after it appeared that he had started killing again?
 
Because even before he got his soul he was on her side (like fighting demons, Glory and looking after Dawn in the past). She has a history with him and she saw him change. I think the fact that he willingly got a soul made all the difference as well- even Angel had his forced upon him, Spike wanted to be worthy and wanted to be better.

Plus I think she had some kind of feelings for him at that point, but that's debatable.
 
Because Spike never posed a threat. I cant speak for season 8 with Buffy vs Dark Willow because those are the comics, but in the television show

She killed Angel because the fate of the world depended on it.

I think its a common misconception that she wanted to kill Faith. Even though she said some things, I think at most she wanted to scare her & knock her out & bring her back to Angel.

& In Anya's case she was a demon & she was killing a lot of people. At some point she had to be stopped
 
PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
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Because she was feeling so wretchedly guilty after exploiting him for her personal needs for so long ? Treating somebody like an object to satisfy tactical and physical needs, then discovering they are a person... that would have weighted heavily on her consciousness. She gave him a lot of credit to pay back for the way she abused him before.
 
L
Living Dead Boy
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PassionBecoming
PassionBecoming
Most definitely.
Because Spike does what's best for Spike, and in Season 7 it's in his best interests to be good. In that way he is utterly trustworthy.
 
Instinct and residual feelings, I think. She believed that he could become a good man, especially now he had a soul and she had personally seen his penance. It's summed up for me in her dialogue in 'Never Leave Me.' Having said that, if she had felt he was responsible for killing the people he killed under the influence of The First, then I think she would have reluctantly staked him. It would have hurt her emotionally, though, I believe.
 
Spike wanted to change! Buffy felt that! She has a sixth sense for people like him! And she was in love with him! She needed him as he needed her! Angel tried to destroy the world, Spike tried to rescue it with her! She needed someone to talk about her problems in a way, inwhich she could never talk to one of the scoobie gang! Just remember, he was the first one who knew that Buffy was in heaven instead of hell!
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
great post!
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
Couldn't agree more.
I think buffy was in a sort of denial about spike and her feelings for him for a long time. She saw his heroism and selflessness - before and after getting his soul, but held on to the idea that he was still at least to some degree, a monster....I think there are various reasons for this. But at some point in season 7, this resistance or denial or veil or whatever, vanished. It broke or completely melted away. When he was challenging her not to believe in him. Telling her about alll the horrible things he had done and she looked at him with love and acceptance and told him that she believed in him...I think it was that moment. Where she just let herself let go of the last shred of doubt.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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The way in which Buffy handled everyone in her life, and everything she encountered was always based on two things: pure instinct, and cold hard facts. The way in which she trusted was no different. When instinct and facts conflicted with one another, she had to weigh them, (and actually her instinct was usually so spot on--especially as she got older and more experienced-- that she rarely had to). Looking at the other examples you provided:

-Angelus in season 2: Instinct indicated to her that Angel might not be in there, anywhere. But she wasn't ready to accept that until enough facts had piled up that she could no longer deny that she had to kill Angelus, (she had said "give me time" at the end of Innocence, and after Passion she was all the more ready and apologized to Giles for not doing it sooner). Of course once it was clear that Angelus was attempting to end the world and that killing him and sending him to hell would be the only way to prevent it, her path was clear. In this scenario, trust wasn't much of a factor at all. She did what she had to do, and any hope of regaining trust that Angelus could turn back was long gone somewhere between Innocence and Passion).

-Faith had never given Buffy a reason to trust her. When they were working together in the beginning of 3, sure things looked like they were getting off to a good start but her trust had yet to be tested. And I think from the very beginning Buffy's instinct told her that something was askew within Faith. Of course after Faith attempted to sell her out to Giles, that would-be trust that was building had disappeared. Add the facts: Faith attempting to kill Willow, Angel, and co-create an apocalypse, and why in the world would Buffy show her trust or compassion by the time season 3 was over?

-Buffy was prepared to kill Dark Willow only in self defense, or in the defense of another. She was going to do everything she could to prevent that from happening, however. I think at that point she could resign herself to fighting her until the cows came home but was praying it would never have to be more than that. Fighting. Holding her off. But again, there was no trust here. By the end of season 6 in the magic shop I think it was pretty clear to Buffy that Willow didn't "live here anymore" the same way Angel was not around for Angelus's reign. In handling DW and Angelus Buffy had to first separate her feelings for the physical form of either and realize that she was not dealing with them anymore. So again, trust wasn't a factor here either. She was dealing with entirely different beings than the ones she'd trusted before.

-Buffy decided to kill Anya because of the fact that Anya had chosen to become a demon, (twice), and chosen to kill a lot of people in the process. The trust was gone once Anya turned to D'Hoffryn and decided to kill. Simple as that. This is analogous to the scenarios with DW and Angelus in the sense that once Anya had begun to act like a demon, Buffy was going to treat her as one. Again, she was no longer Anya: shopkeeper, fiancée to Xander, and newly human. She was a murderer. By choice.

-By season 7, the most crucial thing that Spike had done to make Buffy worthy of his trust was earning back his soul of his own free will. He had decided that it was the right thing to do without influence from anyone else and had sacrificed so much to get it.
Then there's the classic "what have you done with what you have been given?" factor. When Spike was soulless he did a lot of good. In spite of himself. Someone who fights to do what he is learning to be right and is actively improving and changing is worthy of trust. (As I have mentioned before, Spike's pattern of improvement is constant from season 5 onward, starting with that horrible event in Crush. It's a constant "Bad? Ok, check. No more" pattern with him, and then he's actively saving the scoobies by choice in Buffy's absence, then finally getting his soul).
By contrast, someone with a soul who either decides to, or lets herself become evil is naturally untrustworthy. That is what happened in the case of Faith, Dark Willow, and Anya. And there is the main difference.
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
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D
dexeded
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The fact that 1) She didn't have to kill him to save the world, and 2) She'd slept with him. She felt close to him because they'd shared a very intimate act.

Personally, that's all I feel there is to it. Now that he was any more worthy of her forgiveness than anyone else. On the contrary, I feel he did more to hurt her than to help her, but that's not what this topic is about.
 
Buffy came back wrong. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Seriously, I explain Buffy's blind faith in Spike, and even more disturbingly, in his ability to resist the trigger, with the plot saying so. There is no rational explanation

When instinct and facts conflicted with one another, she had to weigh them, (and actually her instinct was usually so spot on

Well, duh. It would have been a rather short series if Angel had killed her in "Angel". It's very easy to have decent instincts when you happen to be the lead character of a TV show. Whatever happens you won't die. Or least you won't stay dead. Still, Buffy''s record isn't so good - she has been betrayed by Walsh, Anya, Spike, Faith, Giles, Ben and probably a bunch of people I am forgetting now. One would expect her to have learned to be a little less forgiving and trusting by S7...which she was to everyone not named Spike.
 
I think it's because he had just done the impossible. He was a soulless vampire and he had WILLINGLY gotten his soul. And he did it for her, to be what she needed. Hearing that, seeing that... 1. it made her feel guilty. 2. it made her feel amazed and proud. Even if she hadn't said it, the fact that she didn't kill him proved she believed in him when he was soulless just a little bit (not much at all... but a little bit). And then he went out and did the impossible... and she couldn't hold back that pride, that belief in him. And there really wasn't a reason to.
 
and even more disturbingly, in his ability to resist the trigger, with the plot saying so.

I'm not sure what you're referencing here--when did Spike resist the trigger--I mean before he discovered how to overcome it thus deactivating it?

Still, Buffy''s record isn't so good - she has been betrayed by Walsh, Anya, Spike, Faith, Giles, Ben and probably a bunch of people I am forgetting now. One would expect her to have learned to be a little less forgiving and trusting by S7...which she was to everyone not named Spike.

But again, her trust in Spike was a factor of both instinct and what Spike did to earn it. The fact that entirely different people had betrayed her before in entirely different contexts shouldn't influence that fact. And sure, Buffy's only human and it'd be natural for her to want to give in on trusting anyone by season 7. But that's what makes her great: in the first place she still has the capacity to forgive and trust anew given what she's been through, and best of all she can forgive someone who was once her enemy but has earned the right to be discovered in a new light.
It seems pretty pointless to me to attempt to have discussions about a tv show if everything is rationalized away by the fact that the "writers said so." But if you want to look at this from that perspective, I'd say that they did it for a reason: it makes for a great story. If by the end of a series all characters relate to each other in exactly the same way as they had before and none of their opinions, personalities, or convictions had been altered at all throughout the entire run, I'd call that a really boring (or really short) show.
Relationships are living, breathing things, and so is trust. They develop and die and more dramatically so in an artistic medium, so that the audience will feel something profound.
Buffy trusting Spike by the end was in my opinion both earned over several seasons, and made the story that much greater.
 
I'm not sure what you're referencing here--when did Spike resist the trigger--I mean before he discovered how to overcome it thus deactivating it?

That's the thing - Spike didn't resist it, yet Buffy in LMPTM is all "Spike is good now" as if this has anything to do with the issue of the trigger. Her assertion that the trigger must be inactive because she said so was even worse, so this is more of a general writing issue than Buffy believing blindly in Spike, mind you, more like "buffy is a moron because the plot needs her to be".

But that's what makes her great: in the first place she still has the capacity to forgive and trust anew given what she's been through, and best of all she can forgive someone who was once her enemy but has earned the right to be discovered in a new light.

There is a huge space in between forgiving somebody and trusting them blindly. Buffy could have done the former without doing the latter.

It seems pretty pointless to me to attempt to have discussions about a tv show if everything is rationalized away by the fact that the "writers said so." But if you want to look at this from that perspective, I'd say that they did it for a reason: it makes for a great story.

By "the writers saying so" I mean them writing the characters as OOC. I don't think this can be a basis for a good story.

If by the end of a series all characters relate to each other in exactly the same way as they had before and none of their opinions, personalities, or convictions had been altered at all throughout the entire run, I'd call that a really boring (or really short) show.

You really didn't need to use such strawman arguments. I don't recall demanding all relationships staying the same. And the same argument can be used to justify any and all development no matter how well or how badly written it is. It basically means nothing whatsoever as it presents a false dichotomy - either one likes the change in the story or they are told that otherwise there would have been no change at all. This ignores the very obvious possibility of different changes happening instead of what actually unfolded. Maybe this would have made the show worse but it's entirely possible that this would have made it better.

Relationships are living, breathing things, and so is trust. They develop and die and more dramatically so in an artistic medium, so that the audience will feel something profound.

Well, as a viewer I feel nothing profound about a trust level which depends on the current plot needs. Maybe that's just me.
 
With all due respect, there is not much of a relationship between Buffy and Spike at the beginning of the season 7, if you don't count her awkwardness and residual mistrust, then all of a sudden she is treating him like he is made of glass and is extra sparkly. So, the only logical explanation that I can come up with without things getting extra yakky ( re post- attempted rape and pre- life sacrifice) is her residual guilt over mistreating him, some Angel-projection ( souled now) and a lot of compassion.
 
Z
zobothehobo
I count their history as their relationship
That's the thing - Spike didn't resist it, yet Buffy in LMPTM is all "Spike is good now" as if this has anything to do with the issue of the trigger.

I think she was referring to the fact that he had a soul and was now able to be good in spite of the fact that at that moment a trigger was controlling him. In other words: what was going on was out of his control and merely temporary and thus should not define how he is treated in general, or what can be expected of him in the future.

Her assertion that the trigger must be inactive because she said so was even worse

I agree that sometimes when Buffy hopes for something she falsely assumes it to be true which is a mistake. Not saying that is the case throughout all interaction with Spike as others do obviously, but I'll concede that it happens here.

There is a huge space in between forgiving somebody and trusting them blindly.

Yup! But I don't see her trust in Spike as "blind," but rather very much earned. The forgiveness too.

By "the writers saying so" I mean them writing the characters as OOC. I don't think this can be a basis for a good story.

But what may be an OOC character moment for one person might be a well earned development for someone else. I'm saying that sometimes though one dismisses an action because the writers seem to have put it in ill advisedly, in fact they may have been leading up to it for a while, (Buffy trusting and forgiving Spike being a perfect example IMO).

I don't recall demanding all relationships staying the same. And the same argument can be used to justify any and all development no matter how well or how badly written it is. It basically means nothing whatsoever as it presents a false dichotomy - either one likes the change in the story or they are told that otherwise there would have been no change at all. This ignores the very obvious possibility of different changes happening instead of what actually unfolded. Maybe this would have made the show worse but it's entirely possible that this would have made it better.

I apologize if you think I"ve misrepresented you, but when someone dismisses certain things on the basis that they can't be because they weren't before, I infer that they resist change. And of course, when the writers aren't careful, said change embrace can look disastrous and make for an awful story, (see Giles in seasons 6 and 7, or Dark Willow). But I do feel that when it comes to Spike's development there is a lot of "it can't be therefore it's bad" argument out there, and if no specific reasons are given other than that, it's hard to see more than a resistance to his development. Again, I apologize if this is not at all what you mean.
Of course at this point in season 7, if one doesn't accept the fact that Spike would get his soul voluntarily or that Buffy should ever forgive him for formerly being her enemy no matter what he does from this point forward, then of course we'll disagree every time!

Well, as a viewer I feel nothing profound about a trust level which depends on the current plot needs. Maybe that's just me.

Ah, but here's the old chicken/egg argument: does the trust level depend on the plot needs, or is the plot merely reflecting the fact that Buffy trusting Spike would be inevitable at this point in the story, and is it existing around that fact, (if clunk-ily at times?) 🙂
 
But what may be an OOC character moment for one person might be a well earned development for someone else.

Sure, I never claimed otherwise.

I'm saying that sometimes though one dismisses an action because the writers seem to have put it in ill advisedly, in fact they may have been leading up to it for a while, (Buffy trusting and forgiving Spike being a perfect example IMO).

And I am saying that the mere existence of set up doesn't mean said set up is necessarily any good.

I apologize if you think I"ve misrepresented you, but when someone dismisses certain things on the basis that they can't be because they weren't before, I infer that they resist change.

I don't think I said anything about "things that weren't before". The problem lies in the blatant internal contradictions. Forget about Spike for a moment - why does Buffy trust Anya more than Faith? I can't stand Faith and she totally deserves to rot in jail but compared to Anya's crimes Faith's are nothing. Buffy keeps repeating Spike's her strongest fighter as if that's at all relevant considering he is a puppet of her enemy and the same enemy has already shown ample capabilities of defeating Spike whenever it sees fit. And so on. It's very easy to write a story. Making it internally consistent and convincing for the viewers/readers is the tough part.

And her instincts have always been right.

Yes, it's not as if Walsh, Ben, Faith, Giles, Willow, Spike, Angel, Gwendolyne Post, Oz and even Tara betrayed Buffy's trust at one point or the other. Some of them, like Spike, even did that multiple times.
 
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