Why Did Buffy Trust And Defend Spike?

[white avenger]

(This is a question that no Spuffy shipper would ever need to even consider, but just for the sake of the discussion here, let's forget about any romantic considerations, real or imagined.)

Why did Buffy believe so strongly in Spike's character in Season 7 that she was willing to risk alienating her family and friends in order to support and encourage him to become a better man, especially after what their relationship had been during Season 6? Their relationship is a major element in the overall Season 7 storyline, and is something that some people find objectionable, so why did Joss go to such lengths to develop it?

(And, Bangels, if the Spuffies aren't allowed to use the "because she loved him and him alone" argument, neither can you use the "she had been hit in the head too many times by that time" argument)

 

[Robb Stark]

I think because more than anyone in her group, she realized how big a deal him regaining his soul really was.

Buffy had been through that with Angel, and when he returned to the Scoobies in the third season, there were a lot of her friends who flat out rejected the notion of him coming back. But Buffy was able to realize that the man with the soul is completely different than the man without the soul. It's very similar with Spike.

I think Spike really needed the support, and Buffy was mature enough to understand that. Without anyone to help him, it took Angel almost a hundred years of wallowing in despair before he was able to pull himself out of the horrors Angelus had committed. I think Buffy knew that, and she knew that Spike could have gone down the same road.

I think that's Spike's redemption theme in the seventh season. It's not as in your face as Angel (where he's committed himself to the Powers and "helping the helpless"), but it's still very significant. Spike redeems himself to Buffy. I think them together in Chosen, where they're lying together and Buffy trusts him, is a pretty big exclamation point. After everything Spike had done to her, especially at the end of S6, she was able to trust him again. I don't think they slept together (although I know that's open to interpretation), but what I found special about those scenes between them was that she was able to trust him, and to me anyways, that was just as powerful and as meaningful as if they'd slept together.

Then there are the obvious reasons. I think Buffy realized how much they had their backs against the wall and that they needed all the firepower than could get. Spike's an incredibly powerful vampire.

I know this is a simple part of the answer, but I think the other reason is that Buffy felt very strongly for Spike, and him having a soul allowed her to be okay with that. I think Buffy loved Spike (we can debate forever if she was in love with him like Angel, but that's not really the point), and was really, truly close with him by the end. And she knew how much he loved her. He proved that over and over again, and by the end of the season I don't have any doubt that she grew to love him.

Sorry about the wordy, hope I didn't ramble too much.

 

[Kean]

"because she loved him and him alone" argument, neither can you use the "she had been hit in the head too many times by that time" argument)

I wasn't aware we ever did employ that argument.

My take on the question at hand is two fold: 1) I think she believed in who he could be and 2) she was incredibly isolated from her friends and he was her only ally.

Buffy has an enormous heart. Once she believes in you, that's it, you have her trust and her compassion forever. Willow had been at the receiving end of compassion and love earlier in S7. I can't think of any Scooby or person truly close to her who had not been given Buffy's full support when they needed it most. In moments when no one else was giving it to them. Watching S7 it seems obvious to me that Buffy trusted Spike because she believed in good he could do.

That's not to say I agree with her choice, but it is in total keeping with who she is as a person.

However, I do feel there was a more selfish element to Buffy helping Spike and wanting to keep him around. The Scoobies had all but imploded (which would eventually happen in Empty Places) and Buffy felt very alone. Buffy knew that Spike was an unwavering support for her. He would do absolutely anything she wanted and would ask for nothing in return except to remain in her company. I think this was unfair of Buffy because even though she was telling him stay, it was about her, and what she needed/got out of Spike remaining by her side. It wasn't really about him. But I think they both knew what they were doing and I don't think Spike was under any illusions as to Buffy's feelings towards him (No, you don't).

So yeah, that's what I see when I watch S7. Each to their own and all that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree with Kean, I think she wanted to believe in the person he could be.

But I think the main thing was that Spike always backed her corner even when she was wrong, so he was handy to have around.

 

[brinkster130]

Several reasons....

1) Buffy had complete faith in his soul. She's seen (and experienced) firsthand the affect it has on a vampire; there was no way she would have turned her back on him when he was going through this challenge.

2) Buffy felt alienated by her friends and family. Things had been rocky between the Scoobies since B's return from heaven, she turned to Spike for the support she wasn't getting from them. She also knew he would have her back and support her no matter what; I'm sure having him as her closest ally was extremely comforting for her.

3) Buffy knew they were in for a huge a fight. One bigger than anything they had faced before; she knew he would be a useful fighter to have on her side.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Actually what am I thinking, I forgot my own opinion on this since I haven't seen the show in ages, lol!

I have no clue why she trusted him, she was an idiot!!

He could be triggered at any minuet and soul or no soul, he had no control over what he was doing, there could have been a major accident from this, and she wasn't always there to stop it, or could have been in another part of the house, so I don't think she should have trusted him at all, and I don't think it would have been anything against trusting Spike, Spike wasn't in control of those moments - I just mean her reasons were stupid, saying she trusted him, when it wasn't something she could trust him with.

 

[ladydorotea]

My two cents: add here Buffy's enormous guilt for past use and abuse of Spike for loveless sex. With her deeply ingrained superiority/inferiority complex, seeing somebody whom she used to treat like basically her toy becoming a person - that ought to smart. She nurtures him back to mental stability, and refuses to believe that he would go back to killing people - because on some basic level making sure that Spike is OK now somewhat absolves her for treating him in that debased way before, at least for herself. I would compare this to accidentally running over a stray pet - nurturing them back to health would be the only way to fix things for her.

 

[EVIL UU]

Because she's an idiot with a mentality of a Disney princess.

Think about it. Spike attacks Andrew in her own house. That could have been Dawn or Xander or Giles or anybody who's not a super-bitch and therefore unable to defend themselves from an insane vampire. An unguarded moment, some bad luck and they are dead. How irresponsible do you have to be to even allow such a possibility? It's like she doesn't care anymore about the safety of her family and friends, like they really are just her cannon fodder.

And that's after Angelus and all the people that were murdered because Buffy couldn't just slay the wanker. She doesn't learn, she really does not learn.

 

[Robb Stark]

Because she's an idiot with a mentality of a Disney princess.

Think about it. Spike attacks Andrew in her own house. That could have been Dawn or Xander or Giles or anybody who's not a super-bitch and therefore unable to defend themselves from an insane vampire. An unguarded moment, some bad luck and they are dead. How irresponsible do you have to be to even allow such a possibility? It's like she doesn't care anymore about the safety of her family and friends, like they really are just her cannon fodder.

And that's after Angelus and all the people that were murdered because Buffy couldn't just slay the wanker. She doesn't learn, she really does not learn.

I don't know if this is a fair comment. Spike doesn't attack Andrew because he's "bad", he does it because he's been brainwashed by The First. He doesn't do it by choice. They had that whole storyline about the song his Mom used to sing him acting as a trigger.

And as soon as Buffy realizes Spike isn't himself, she chains him up. Heck, Spike asks for it.

Over the course of the series, at some point or another, Buffy, Willow, Xander, Angel, Spike, Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Oz and Riley are all either possessed, mind-controlled, brainwashed or turned evil through forces beyond their control. Should Buffy have killed all of them? Come on. Don't really see how that makes her an idiot.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't know if this is a fair comment. Spike doesn't attack Andrew because he's "bad", he does it because he's been brainwashed by The First. He doesn't do it by choice. They had that whole storyline about the song his Mom used to sing him acting as a trigger.

And as soon as Buffy realizes Spike isn't himself, she chains him up. Heck, Spike asks for it.

Over the course of the series, at some point or another, Buffy, Willow, Xander, Angel, Spike, Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Oz and Riley are all either possessed, mind-controlled, brainwashed or turned evil through forces beyond their control. Should Buffy have killed all of them? Come on. Don't really see how that makes her an idiot.

Evil UU's comment wasn't really aimed at Spikes character, it was aimed at Buffy's trusting Spike, at a time he wasn't in control and shouldn't have been trusted. Chaining him up wasn't enough.

that isn't true that Buffy is as nice to her good turned evil friends, a few episodes earlier she set out to kill Anya, why weren't they trying to chain her to a chair and talk to her?

 

[Robb Stark]

Evil UU's comment wasn't really aimed at Spikes character, it was aimed at Buffy's trusting Spike, at a time he wasn't in control and shouldn't have been trusted. Chaining him up wasn't enough.

that isn't true that Buffy is as nice to her good turned evil friends, a few episodes earlier she set out to kill Anya, why weren't they trying to chain her to a chair and talk to her?

Because Anya chose to become a vengeance demon again, and chose to kill those frat house guys. It wasn't like Angel losing his soul or Spike being possessed by The First. She had complete free will when she did it; Angel and Spike didn't.

I actually didn't like the way that was done with Anya. I thought it was a bit of a stretch that everyone just took her back after that. I mean, she had a soul, there wasn't a whole lot of ambiguity there. She just decided to kill those guys. That's pretty bad.

And my point was more that in Buffy's world, people tend to get possessed. That seems to happen quite a bit. If she stopped trusting or associating with everyone in her life who had been possessed or brainwashed, she'd have no one left. Heck, it happened to Joyce.

 

[Kairos]

Buffy understood Spike really, really well. She knew that he wanted to help and not to hurt her. She knew that with or without his soul, he only ever did what he wanted to do.

 

[white avenger]

Because she's an idiot with a mentality of a Disney princess.

Think about it. Spike attacks Andrew in her own house. That could have been Dawn or Xander or Giles or anybody who's not a super-bitch and therefore unable to defend themselves from an insane vampire.

And immediately after Spike attacks Andrew, who, incidentally, had just murdered his last remaining friend, so he wasn't all that innocent, Buffy knocks him unconscious, chains him up in her basement, and THEN gives him the "I believe in you" speech, basically the only thing that he has to sustain him while being tortured by the Ubervamp. From that time on, Spike was always with Buffy or in chain restraints until he is sure that he is no threat to the others.

Apparently that idiotic Disney princess saw something in Spike that everyone else missed, and she was, ultimately, proven right.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

There is a huge difference between taking a life of a living person and turning an out of control reanimated corpse into dust. Slaying is not killing. You can't compare Spike's possession to that of Xander or any other human because possessed or not, Spike's still a monstrosity. So...Kill? No. Slay? Oh go ahead!

he does it because he's been brainwashed by The First.

An ensouled vampire IS already brainwashed. The First didn't change that. You have to be amazingly irresponsible to trust something that's so dangerous and so easy to manipulate at the same time. Buffy had no way of making sure that Spike was or wasn't possessed. No way at all, even after "Lies My Parents Told Me". She took a chance. She gambled with the lives of her sister and her friends.

I think that's pretty idiotic.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

There is a huge difference between taking a life of a living person and turning an out of control reanimated corpse into dust. Slaying is not killing. You can't compare Spike's possession to that of Xander or any other human because possessed or not, Spike's still a monstrosity. So...Kill? No. Slay? Oh go ahead!



An ensouled vampire IS already brainwashed. The First didn't change that. You have to be amazingly irresponsible to trust something that's so dangerous and so easy to manipulate at the same time. Buffy had no way of making sure that Spike was or wasn't possessed. No way at all, even after "Lies My Parents Told Me". She took a chance. She gambled with the lives of her sister and her friends.

I think that's pretty idiotic.

I don't really get how an ensouled vampire is already brainwashed. I suppose I can see how a vampire who gets his/her soul back is unnatural, that makes sense, but I don't think that Angel or Spike were "brainwashed". Sure, they have super powers, but they both proved that they're champions. I mean, Angel has probably saved just as many people as anyone else in the series by the end of his show. He shouldn't be trusted?

By that logic, Willow should never be trusted. Control issues were a central theme in the final two seasons for her, and even though she's a human, it's clear that her potential to cause death and destruction vastly outstrips Spike and Angel. Buffy has her performing magic all the time in S7. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that's any different than Spike by the way you explained things.

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't really get how an ensouled vampire is already brainwashed.

Vampires are by nature malevolent. To turn a vampire into a tool of good you need to change its natural state with magic, turn a malevolent into benevolent. Change the way they think, change how they perceive the world, turn them into something they are not with power.

That's brainwashing.

A vampire is an abomination. An ensouled vampire is an abomination of an abomination.

I mean, Angel has probably saved just as many people as anyone else in the series by the end of his show.

And then murdered hundreds of Slayers. It's very important.

He shouldn't be trusted?

A vampire should never be trusted because their very nature is malevolent. You can brainwash them but you can't change their nature. Whatever they do, in the end they cause even more suffering. What's more important, vampires cannot change because change is an attribute of life. That's why vampires are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and the same fate, over and over again. Angel will pursue redemption, causing more suffering, death and destruction in every cycle. Spike will find another woman to obsess over, destroy her and loose her like every woman before her.

Slaying is an act of mercy, for vampires and their inevitable victims.

Willow though is alive, it's in her power to change and transgress. Spike cannot do that, he is a vampire, he's damned to cause suffering, no matter what he does because it's in his nature. That's the difference between them.

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

And immediately after Spike attacks Andrew, who, incidentally, had just murdered his last remaining friend, so he wasn't all that innocent

And how does that make what Spike did any better? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, huh?

 

[Robb Stark]

Vampires are by nature malevolent. To turn a vampire into a tool of good you need to change its natural state with magic, turn a malevolent into benevolent. Change the way they think, change how they perceive the world, turn them into something they are not with power.

That's brainwashing.

A vampire is an abomination. An ensouled vampire is an abomination of an abomination.



And then murdered hundreds of Slayers. It's very important.



A vampire should never be trusted because their very nature is malevolent. You can brainwash them but you can't change their nature. Whatever they do, in the end they cause even more suffering. What's more important, vampires cannot change because change is an attribute of life. That's why vampires are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and the same fate, over and over again. Angel will pursue redemption, causing more suffering, death and destruction in every cycle. Spike will find another woman to obsess over, destroy her and loose her like every woman before her.

Slaying is an act of mercy, for vampires and their inevitable victims.

Willow though is alive, it's in her power to change and transgress. Spike cannot do that, he is a vampire, he's damned to cause suffering, no matter what he does because it's in his nature. That's the difference between them.

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]



And how does that make what Spike did any better? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, huh?

I don't recall Angel ever murdering a Slayer, let alone hundreds. However, I haven't read the comics yet (I have them ordered, but I'm finishing up Angel S5 before I read them), so to be fair I can't comment on anything that's happened in them because I just don't know. On the show though, as Angel (not Angelus), when did he kill hundreds of Slayers?

Putting a soul back into a vampire isn't really brainwashing (not like how The First controlled Spike). After all, the souls that Angel and Spike get back are theirs to begin with. That's who they were before they were turned. I understand how it's not a natural thing, you're right when you say that it's done through magic and power, but that doesn't make them an abomination. Angel and Spike, when they were turned into vampires, had their lives and personalities stolen from them. Giving them back doesn't seem like brainwashing.

And both Angel and Spike, and hell, even Darla, proved many times that they could change, no matter what they're "supposed" to do. Angel is pretty much the definition of a hero throughout both Buffy and his own series. It's not like he ever reverts back to killing humans for fun. And Spike changes dramatically. Sure, the way he talks and acts around other characters remains largely the same, but he chooses, without a soul, to get his soul back. If he was the one who chose it, how is that, in any form, brainwashing?

Angel and Spike both changed radically (remember how Angel was lingering around doing nothing for 90 years?), and they were both heroes that could stand with anyone by the end.

 

[ladydorotea]

Angel actually did not physically kill a single Slayer so far *by his own hand* - as Angel, Angelus

Spoiler

or Twilight

. If you are going to read the comics -

Spoiler

keep this in mind whatever claims you see. That was confirmed by DH chief editor.

The comics are by far controversial - but whatever happened there -

Spoiler

Angel still did not physically kill anybody.

 

[Sweet J]

I think part of the reason why Buffy trusted Spike can also be answered by asking why the First had such interest in Spike.

Buffy realized that the First was going to great pains in attempting to drive a wedge between Spike and Buffy, since the First was her enemy, an element of Buffy's trust for Spike may have stemmed from this.

The ye olde - the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Over the course of the series, at some point or another, Buffy, Willow, Xander, Angel, Spike, Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Oz and Riley are all either possessed, mind-controlled, brainwashed or turned evil through forces beyond their control. Should Buffy have killed all of them?

Well said.

I know this is a simple part of the answer, but I think the other reason is that Buffy felt very strongly for Spike, and him having a soul allowed her to be okay with that. I think Buffy loved Spike (we can debate forever if she was in love with him like Angel, but that's not really the point), and was really, truly close with him by the end. And she knew how much he loved her. He proved that over and over again, and by the end of the season I don't have any doubt that she grew to love him.

Totally agree!

Vampires are by nature malevolent. To turn a vampire into a tool of good you need to change its natural state with magic,

Unless the vampire goes and does it for himself, voluntarily. If a vampire himself is the one who makes the official change to benevolent by getting his own soul back, then half the "magic" is in his own ability to make the decision.

A vampire should never be trusted because their very nature is malevolent. You can brainwash them but you can't change their nature.

Angel was "brainwashed" by the Gypsies but chose to be a hero, himself. After years of doing nothing, and at least one instance of feeding off a victim, he decided to be truly good and not merely neutral. That, again, was his own choice and was not the result of the interference of any person or any magic.

What's more important, vampires cannot change because change is an attribute of life. That's why vampires are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and the same fate, over and over again.

This sounds a whole lot like humanity to me. The living seldom change and are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Those who change for the better ought to be commended. And these vampires have. Judging vampires in this 'verse who are actually trying to make a difference in a harsher light merely because of their composition makes little sense to me.