Why Did Fred Wait?

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caritas08

lornelover
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I'm curious why Fred waited so long to realize she loved Wesley? I understood her not getting together with him right away out of respect for Gunn, and I'm sure the Lilah thing weirded her out, but she knew he still loved her deeply (he shot his own father for goodness sake) and it seemed to take forever for her to realize her feelings. Knox is cute and all but it just seems like she kinda hopped from guy to guy (and I promise I really am a Fred fan). She showed minor interest in Wesley right after the Gunn breakup (till she found out about Lilah) and then she seems interested in Knox. And I don't care if she was drunk asking Wesley about Knox at the Halloween party was just cruel.

I'm just curious when her feelings started to change and how come it took so long to get there?

Although I ultimately ship Fred and Wesley, I also wonder if maybe he needed someone with a little more darkness like Lilah or even a combination of Fred/Illyria since Fred seemed a little blind to what he felt and needed?

One more thought (sorry for the length). Does anyone besides me see the parallels in Joss' Astonishing X-Men run between Emma Frost/Scott Summers and Lilah/Wesley?
 
I always thought the same, to me wesley and fred seemed inevitable like they should be the best suited for one another and then it took ages for it to blossom and to be honest it was quite frustrating for me personally. I can't hazard a guess as to why it took so long (currently on my 2 angel rewatch and only on the beginning of season 3). I'll come back with an answer once I've refreshed my memory.
 
Personally, I don't think she was in love with Wesley in the first place. He loved her, but the romantic interest she showed later was not to the same degree that Wesley showed for her. I don't think the wait was a conscious decision. She just didn't love him. Maybe she could have given more time (I personally don't think so) but at that point I don't think it was love.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I totally agree.
Taake
Taake
agreed
I have no idea if she loved him or not. Maybe she loved him in season 3, but liked/loved Gunn more, then went with him. And in season 4 I definitly see why things didn't kick off.

Why it took so long in season 5 could have several good reasons. Maybe Angel's memory spell removed the memory of Fred & Wesley bonding over darkness in season 4 so she didn't realize he still liked her, or that she could like him? Maybe she's shy so she wanted him to take the first step, but didn't think he wanted her since he didn't ask her out? Maybe she dated Knox because she did, or thought she did, like him more? Maybe she just didn't dare to ruin wesley and her friendship? Maybe she dated Knox because it was safer. Maybe Fred didn't dare to play with Wesley's feelings, just in case she didn't like him back, so she waited to see if her feelings were returned? Maybe Wesley hid his feelings so well she didn't notice he still liked her?

Or maybe she didn't like him that much in the beginning of season 5, but then she saw him in a new light?

So many options, who knows what's true.
 
I know why you guys doubt Fred's feelings for Wesley, but suppose for the sake of argument that her feelings were real and deep ... doesn't the story work better, emotionally, on that assumption?

Suggestion: The writers wanted us to believe she was genuinely in love with him, but they didn't quite earn our belief. We would've needed an extra episode or two or three where she gives us evidence.
 
I didn't find it believable that Fred loved Wesley. I don't think believe for two seconds that she got together with Wesley because she was passionately crazily infatuated with him either. Caritas was right - Fred was the type of person that needed a male to cling to. Quite the opposite to Cordelia who was so independent. Fred needed to be with someone and she realised that Wesley was a great guy that cared deeply for her.

Wesley definitely deserved someone* that cared about him the same way he cared about Fred and for those reasons I can't bring myself to ship Fresley. I love how happy Fred makes him, but that's it.

*that someone is caitaintdead
 
caitaintdead said:
Quite the opposite to Cordelia who was so independent.
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That made me laugh out loud. Cordy as guy-independent, lol. I couldn't disagree more.

As for Fred I agree with that has been stated above. I don't think Fred was in love with Wes they way he was with her but that she grew to care for him and perhaps, if given time, would have fallen in love with him. However I don't think she needed a male to cling to, I think it was supposed to have naturally progressed as time moved on and she started to look at him in a different light, though to me it felt a bit off (ultimately I think Whedon made her see him in this different light for the sake of pathos at her death)
 
I'm a Fred/Wesley shipper too. I think they just intended for Fred and Wesley to have a really short time together before Illyria, so the tragedy would be sudden and poignant. I mean, I would expect Joss to kill characters at their happiest--but not THAT soon. So more of a shock factor, I guess. As for the darkness thing, Fred did have a little darkness in her; remember the professor?
 
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caritas08
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Dagenspear said:
Yeah. She only had like one or two. That was just insulting to Cordy to say that she WASN'T independent. She had to be hands down one of the strongest and most independent women on both BUFFY and ANGEL.
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Yes and that's your opinion. I'm sorry that you find mine to be insulting off a character's personality traits but we don't all view things the same way.

And for the record, if we're keeping count, Fred also only had like one or two boyfriends...
 
[MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] I'm confused (it doesn't take much!) are you saying Cordy is independent or that she isn't?
 
Taake
Taake
I found her somewhat independent. But not SO independent as others seem to :)
Taake said:
Yes and that's your opinion. I'm sorry that you find mine to be insulting off a character's personality traits but we don't all view things the same way.

And for the record, if we're keeping count, Fred also only had like one or two boyfriends...
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She wanted Angel. Then Gunn, then Knox, then Wesley. That's four... or three if you don't count Angel. And that was all one after the other.

I will correct myself and say that maybe Cordy had just as many, but they were far between eachother. She was able to stand on her own two feet for a long time.
 
Dagenspear said:
She wanted Angel. Then Gunn, then Knox, then Wesley. That's four... or three if you don't count Angel. And that was all one after the other.

I will correct myself and say that maybe Cordy had just as many, but they were far between eachother. She was able to stand on her own two feet for a long time.
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Well she wanted Angel because she was traumatized by her stay in Pylea and saw him as a 'savior', but to me she seemed childishly needful of him, not really romantically needful. Personally I can't hold that against her after what she's been through.

She was in a relationship with Gunn yes, had a flirtation with Knox that didn't seem to go beyond a date or two and then fell for Wesley. To me this seems like the normal behavior of any young woman. After she and Gunn broke up she seemed perfectly independent and not in 'need' of either Knox or Wesley.

As for Cordy I think of her high school years, season 1 of Angel she dated at least two guys to my recall, her instant need to 'cling' to Angel once they met in LA (much like Fred as well) not to mention her visit to the Russel guy in the very first s1 episode (she was not naive enough to think he only wanted dinner from her... ), she, albeit humorously, seemed to seriously entertain the idea of dating the David geek guy for a life of comfort, she fell for Doyle, for Groo (whom she continued to date even though she clearly didn't have feelings for him), for Angel and eventually hooked up with Connor (though I suppose that's not 'real' Cordy). But even without him to me it appeared that the only reason Cordy stopped dating as she did in Ats 1 is that she grew dependent on Angel and clung to him.

None of this make me thing less of Cordy or Fred, I think they're both independent women trying their best to get on with their lives, however I simply don't view Cordelia as any more independent. She was a spoiled girl who went from the comfort of her parents home and learned to pay her bills herself, nothing extraordinary about it to me.
 
I think Fred loved Wesley from the beginning, but she loved Gunn too, and she ended up having to make a hard choice and she choice Gunn first. I don't know if she ever doubted that choice or not, but I do believe she loved Wesley and was always torn by her feelings for both men.
 
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caritas08
[No message]
Taake said:
Well she wanted Angel because she was traumatized by her stay in Pylea and saw him as a 'savior', but to me she seemed childishly needful of him, not really romantically needful. Personally I can't hold that against her after what she's been through.

She was in a relationship with Gunn yes, had a flirtation with Knox that didn't seem to go beyond a date or two and then fell for Wesley. To me this seems like the normal behavior of any young woman. After she and Gunn broke up she seemed perfectly independent and not in 'need' of either Knox or Wesley.

As for Cordy I think of her high school years, season 1 of Angel she dated at least two guys to my recall, her instant need to 'cling' to Angel once they met in LA (much like Fred as well) not to mention her visit to the Russel guy in the very first s1 episode (she was not naive enough to think he only wanted dinner from her... ), she, albeit humorously, seemed to seriously entertain the idea of dating the David geek guy for a life of comfort, she fell for Doyle, for Groo (whom she continued to date even though she clearly didn't have feelings for him), for Angel and eventually hooked up with Connor (though I suppose that's not 'real' Cordy). But even without him to me it appeared that the only reason Cordy stopped dating as she did in Ats 1 is that she grew dependent on Angel and clung to him.

None of this make me thing less of Cordy or Fred, I think they're both independent women trying their best to get on with their lives, however I simply don't view Cordelia as any more independent. She was a spoiled girl who went from the comfort of her parents home and learned to pay her bills herself, nothing extraordinary about it to me.
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Oh. Hell. No. You did not just say that Cordelia "clung" to Angel. Now, I'm personally insulted. She was his friend and he was hers. She's supposed to be there for him. And vice-versa. I suppose you believe that Angel was clinging to Cordelia as well. Not to mention that working for him was the only job she could get.

And falling for someone isn't the same as having one-after-another relationships with certain guys. Cordelia DID have feelings for Groo. His story made her have feelings for him. That "geek guy" thing was just Cordelia being Cordelia. She does get turned on by money after all. The Russell thing does seem a bit sketchy. But, on the ride there, Cordy makes no move at believing that it's anything more than business. I wouldn't call that being "naive" though. I think she just had been living in crap for so long that she was too excited at the idea of getting any bite at something that she just didn't give it any thought.

Now, you somehow seem to miss the point of what I said. Cordelia never jumped from guy to guy to guy. Unlike Fred. Fred may still be independent, but not as much as Cordy.
 
HisMrs said:
I think Fred loved Wesley from the beginning, but she loved Gunn too, and she ended up having to make a hard choice and she choice Gunn first. I don't know if she ever doubted that choice or not, but I do believe she loved Wesley and was always torn by her feelings for both men.
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I agree. I think Fred had feelings for Wesley but his darkness and quietness kind of made her hold back, especially when Gunn was bonding with her, always being cheerful and flirting with her. I actually would have probably chosen Gunn over Wesley too (not knowing how strong Wesley's feelings were and considering Gunn has a more warm, comforting personality). The events of "Billy" made Wesley really crawl back into his shell and kind of gave Gunn an unfair advantage because it made Wes more shy and awkward around her.

I definitely think Fred loved Wes. I just get a little frustrated watching her flirt with Knox in front of Wes when she knows Wes is so in love with her. I just wish the Knox flirtation didn't exist and Fred and Wes could have gotten together a lot sooner than "Smile Time." At least let them sleep together after how long they waited to be together.

As far as the independent topic, I think Fred and Cordy are both pretty independent. I mean having a boyfriend does not make you unindependent.

I just wondered if someone as fluffy, sweet and innocent as Fred was enough to handle a guy who was struggling with darkness as much as Wesley. It seems like Illyria and Lilah almost understand him better sometimes. However, I think Fred's love for him was important in keeping him from falling over the edge.

I wish Wesley weren't quite so dependent on Fred though. If the series had continued I would have wanted to see him dealing with her death and moving on. One person's happiness and ability to keep their sanity shouldn't depend on another's. Angel lost his only son and still managed to function and find hope in life.
 
Dagenspear said:
Oh. Hell. No. You did not just say that Cordelia "clung" to Angel. Now, I'm personally insulted. She was his friend and he was hers. She's supposed to be there for him.
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Perhaps I was vague, I'm sorry. My reference of clinging here was the first half of season 1, much like Fred did in the first half of s3. Angel was like a safe harbor for the both of them to cling to before they both (IMO) grew more independent.
You can hardly suggest that Angel and Cordy were best of friends from the get-go... they grew to be friends.


Now, you somehow seem to miss the point of what I said. Cordelia never jumped from guy to guy to guy. Unlike Fred. Fred may still be independent, but not as much as Cordy.
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I didn't miss your point, I simply don't agree with it. But let's agree to disagree, no? 🙂
 
Taake said:
Perhaps I was vague, I'm sorry. My reference of clinging here was the first half of season 1, much like Fred did in the first half of s3. Angel was like a safe harbor for the both of them to cling to before they both (IMO) grew more independent.
You can hardly suggest that Angel and Cordy were best of friends from the get-go... they grew to be friends.

I didn't miss your point, I simply don't agree with it. But let's agree to disagree, no? 🙂
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Whatever. 😎 Believe what you'd like.
 
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