Why did Giles let Willow perform the spell in Becoming?

[Skytteflickan88]

I never got why Giles let someone so unexperienced as Willow try a spell he didn't think he could do himself. Did he think she'd have beginner's luck?

GILES: What are you saying?

BUFFY: The curse. This is it.

WILLOW: Looks like Ms. Calendar was trying to replicate the original curse. To restore Angel's soul again.

GILES: She said it couldn't be done.

BUFFY: Well, she tried anyway. And it looks like it might have worked.

XANDER: So he killed her... before she could tell anyone about it. What a prince, huh?

CORDELIA: This is good, right? I mean, we can curse him again.

GILES: Um, well, this, um... certainly points the way, but... the ritual itself requires a greater knowledge of the black arts than I, I, I can claim.

WILLOW: Well, I've been going through her files and, and researching the black arts, for fun, or educational fun, and I may be able to work this.

GILES: W-Willow... channeling... such potent magicks through yourself, it could open a door that you may not be able to close.

BUFFY: I don't want you putting yourself in any danger, Will.

WILLOW: And I don't want danger. Big 'no' to danger, but I may be the best person to do this.

Becoming Part 1

That's a big plothole I'm telling you, a old experienced warlock-ish man letting a teenager he cares about try a dangerous spell (her first spell I assume) because she had read a bit about the black arts "for fun", and he didn't have enough knowledge. Did he think she would have more?

Why didn't he atleast try it himxself first, to see if it was necassary for Willow to go through what could "open a door that could never be closed"? Did he sense her power? Did he really think she knew more than him, a watcher who had played with dark forces a lot more than her? Was he afraid that he himself would open a door he had closed a long time ago, his old abuse of magic?

Or is it just bad writing with no reasonable explanation, a plothole, a bad way to make sure the plot moved forward so Angel could be re-ensouled?

 

[Vengeance]

I don't think Giles was ever the "Black Magic" guy, Willow said she had been researching it in Ms Calendar's files. She was more familiar with the ritual than he was. He wanted to fulfill Jenny's last wish and he thought she would have a better shot at it than he did.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think Giles was ever the "Black Magic" guy, Willow said she had been researching it in Ms Calendar's files. She was more familiar with the ritual than he was. He wanted to fulfill Jenny's last wish and he thought she would have a better shot at it than he did.

I got the impression from the ep The dark Age that he had been quite the black magic guy, and as a watcher he must have studied the forces which he were to help Buffy fight, including magic of different kinds. He can't just assume that Willow knows more, because she read a few files, it makes no sense (to me). Also, it was for all he knew her first spell (as seen on screen anyway). A bit heavy for a newbie, wasn't it?

Overall, the Giles character is not that dumb. IMO, it was bad writing.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I always wondered about this one, too, especially because of his reaction to her using magic in S6. But I think it was more about honoring the fact that Jenny had been working on this before she died, and he wanted to respect her wishes to attempt to restore Angel's soul.

 

[Vengeance]

I seem to remember in The Witch Giles says "that was my first casting". I don't think whatever he did when he was younger was black arts, it was something else. And I'd venture a guess Willow spent long hours poring over her files, not just a casual glance at "a few files".

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I seem to remember in The Witch Giles says "that was my first casting". I don't think whatever he did when he was younger was black arts, it was something else. And I'd venture a guess Willow spent long hours poring over her files, not just a casual glance at "a few files".

He said that? Weird, since he called forth demons and what not in flashbacks in the dark age. Continuity error? Or are castings a specific sort of sorcery, and demon summonings another? Anyway, he had experience in practising dark art, while Willow had not, which was my point.

Either way, he must have done more research than Willow on the black arts. Of course, maybe I shouldn't give the council and the watcher's that much credit, considering that they sent Wesley to aid Buffy, when he had only fought vampires during controlled conditions. But unless Willow was very dedicated, how could she had studied more than Giles, who'd been training to be a watcher years? Is she that smart?

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I seem to remember in The Witch Giles says "that was my first casting". I don't think whatever he did when he was younger was black arts, it was something else. And I'd venture a guess Willow spent long hours poring over her files, not just a casual glance at "a few files".

He was into black arts when he was younger ("The Dark Age").

 

[Taake]

I've also wondered about this considering the fact that it was a pretty complex spell and Willow wasn't exactly an accomplished witch.

 

[NY State of Mind]

I thought he was just involved with Ethan Rayne, etc. in the "Dark Age"..kind of like when Xander, Anya in Season 6 with Willow, Tara...i thought he was just more of a rebellion rather than a dark warlock or whatever..Ethan seemed to be the spell guy...just a thought

 

[Flannen]

Well, for one, I don't think Giles saying 'that was my first casting' in The Witch is a continuity error. It may well be, but given the fact that Giles clearly did not want the other Scoobies to know about his past, he was obviously not going to mention it to them in that episode. So he may have just lied to protect his own past. I think he definitely was involved in quite dark magic, given the tattoos and such I think he was probably involved in it as a cult for quite a while when he was younger. Until it went wrong.

I haven't seen the episode for a while but I always just figured that Giles thought that by going through Jenny's stuff, Willow actually did have a pretty good idea of how to do it. Or maybe not wanting to do such dark magic himself meant he wouldn't try it. Besides, even if he did feel that against it when the time to perform came about, he wasn't exactly in a position to be arguing with them over it.

I don't think it was Willow's power that upset him so much in season six but what she was using that power for.

 

[DoughnutHole]

I thought he was just involved with Ethan Rayne, etc. in the "Dark Age"..kind of like when Xander, Anya in Season 6 with Willow, Tara...i thought he was just more of a rebellion rather than a dark warlock or whatever..Ethan seemed to be the spell guy...just a thought

I think it all goes back to the drug metaphor used for Willow in S6. Like, instead of doing drugs when he was younger, he dabbled in dark magics (calling forth demons, becoming possessed for a short bit as apposed to being high or tripping)

I also think that that easily counts as black magic, and that even if Ethan Rayne was more or less the leader of the pack, Giles was every bit as involved as the rest of them. But it was a foolish part of his life that he recovered from and tried to put behind him. Hence the drug metaphor.

I can't help but think that as far as the S2 thing is concerned, Angel needed to keep Giles hostage and torture him for information, so Giles obviously couldnt simultaniously be casting the spell to get him back his soul. Willow was the best bet, writing-wise. Was it out of character for him? Yes, I suppose... but he seemed to make several mistakes along the same vein throughout his time with the scoobies. So maybe it was just a bad decision, or maybe it was for the sake of convenience in writing the script.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I definitly think it was "in the sake of convenience in writing the script", but I think it can be fanwanked to make sense a bit, even if I'll still not be satisfied.

But I can't come up with a reason that make sense. If he was afraid to get sucked into the black arts again, was he so afraid of it that he'd rather let Willow get tempted? Or was he not that afraid for her at all, since that in season 3, he doesn't give her any training to avoid getting into the wrong kind of magic, he just seems to assume she will be fine (which is pretty dumb. He let her get a taste of magic and then didn't give her lessons? Like handing a weapon to a child.)

 

[BuffyElevated]

Skytteflickan88 agrees: But why wouldn't he try it first? What did him risking Willow have to do with Jenny?

Yeah I wondered about that. At that point, Giles was much more experienced with magic than Willow. I didn't know why he would let her try a spell as powerful as that one. Obviously the second time she did the spell, she was the only one who had any idea of how to do the spell. But the first time, I thought Giles should have been the one doing the actual spell, not Willow.

 

[white avenger]

It's just possible that Giles didn't actually want Angels' soul restored. Buffy saw Angel and Angelus as two separate beings who just happened to occupy the same body. Angelus, she could fight, defeat, and destroy. Giles probably, almost certainly, in fact, could have performed the spell himself if he had cared to do so, but in so doing, he would have allowed Jenny's death, plus all of the death and mayhem that Angelus had perpetrated, to go unpunished. Even into the next season, when there was no doubt that Angel's soul was restored, Giles distrusted, and maybe even hated him for what Angelus had done. It took a long time for Angel to regain his trust, if, in fact, he ever really did.

Basically, as to the question of reinstating Angel's soul at the end of Season 2, I think that Giles was more or less just looking for an excuse to not do the spell himself, and also trying to talk Willow out of doing it either. Once it became aware that she was determined to do it, just about all that he could do was to go along with it and hope that Willow would, as she so often seemed to do, somehow foul it up and maybe, instead of restoring Angel's soul, she would have instead transformed him into a vampire cock roach or something equally disgusting.

 

[Flannen]

WA, I know you're not particularly a Giles fan but I just do not see that being something Giles would do. Not at that point of the series anyway. Towards the end, well seasons five onwards, he was much more about the bigger picture and in some ways became more cynical about the whole thing. But season two Giles? Not a chance.

I may agree on some level if he'd made any attempt to talk Willow out of it, but he didn't really. He warned her of the possibility of what could happen but he didn't do much afterwards. And as for hoping she'd muck it up? Again, this was pretty much Willow's first spell so her track record of doing spells wrong wasn't even present at that time in the series.

Either way, season two Giles is just not capable of what you're suggesting. Later in the series, like I said, I think you would have a case but not this early on.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

It's just possible that Giles didn't actually want Angels' soul restored. Buffy saw Angel and Angelus as two separate beings who just happened to occupy the same body. Angelus, she could fight, defeat, and destroy. Giles probably, almost certainly, in fact, could have performed the spell himself if he had cared to do so, but in so doing, he would have allowed Jenny's death, plus all of the death and mayhem that Angelus had perpetrated, to go unpunished. Even into the next season, when there was no doubt that Angel's soul was restored, Giles distrusted, and maybe even hated him for what Angelus had done. It took a long time for Angel to regain his trust, if, in fact, he ever really did.

Basically, as to the question of reinstating Angel's soul at the end of Season 2, I think that Giles was more or less just looking for an excuse to not do the spell himself, and also trying to talk Willow out of doing it either. Once it became aware that she was determined to do it, just about all that he could do was to go along with it and hope that Willow would, as she so often seemed to do, somehow foul it up and maybe, instead of restoring Angel's soul, she would have instead transformed him into a vampire cock roach or something equally disgusting.

Giles would never have been so incredibly selfish that he let, on purpose, a teenage girl who he loved as a daughter, be forced to kill her boyfriend if there was a spell that could prevent it. Even less so since he knew Angelus was strong and could have killed Buffy, thus ended the world.

He would never.

 

[Flannen]

Skytteflickan88 agrees: You're kind of contradicting yourself. You say the big picture guy of the later seasons would be more willing to see the world burn and Buffy suffer so he could have revenge?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Can you explain a bit more how you think I'm contradicting myself?

By Giles being the bigger picture guy, I meant that if this had happened in the later seasons I could see there being an argument for Giles wanting to have that kind of revenge because he began to see it a lot more black and white. But the Giles of the earlier seasons understood Buffy's emotional attachments and would never have chosen to undermine her that way. But as I'm not entirely sure what you mean I can't say much else.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Can you explain a bit more how you think I'm contradicting myself?

By Giles being the bigger picture guy, I meant that if this had happened in the later seasons I could see there being an argument for Giles wanting to have that kind of revenge because he began to see it a lot more black and white. But the Giles of the earlier seasons understood Buffy's emotional attachments and would never have chosen to undermine her that way. But as I'm not entirely sure what you mean I can't say much else.

You write that Giles was more the bigger picture guy in later seasons, yet think he would risk the world, the big picture, for revenge?

I don't think Giles would risk the world to have revenge on one single vampire, not in any season. Specially if a spell could "fix it" without Buffy risking her life.

But I understand when you say that he might have been more willing to risk the world in season 2 than later because he felt sympathy for Buffy, he was less of a bigger picture guy in that way. We'll never know how he would have reacted in Becoming if the world and Buffy's life hadn't been at risk, and if Jenny hadn't wanted Angel re-ensouled. Then he might have thought Angelus too big a risk and let Buffy kill him, if he had thought she could do so easily (both emotionally and physically).

 

[Flannen]

You write that Giles was more the bigger picture guy in later seasons, yet think he would risk the world, the big picture, for revenge?

Ah, I see what you mean now. That's not what I meant to say but I see how it looks that way, lol. I just sort of meant that as a bigger picture guy his concerns about Buffy's emotional attachments weren't always such a great concern to him (suggesting killing Dawn). But I agree, he's also too 'bigger picture' to risk such a thing. 🙂

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Ah, I see what you mean now. That's not what I meant to say but I see how it looks that way, lol. I just sort of meant that as a bigger picture guy his concerns about Buffy's emotional attachments weren't always such a great concern to him (suggesting killing Dawn). But I agree, he's also too 'bigger picture' to risk such a thing. 🙂

I agree, he didn't always think about the feelings of one single person when to much was at stake. But I think he showed that more aggressively season after season, because he thought Buffy could take it, that she had become stronger/colder. In season 2, he wouldn't have asked her as "easily" to kill Dawn as he did in Season 5, when he practically demanded it. In Season 2, I imagine he would have been more acted more understanding more "Please Buffy, it has to be done" less "It had to be done!"

So I'm not sure he got colder in the later seasons. We were just shown what he had always been capable off.