Why did Giles turn his back on Buffy?

[bespangeled]

I'm thinking of Empty Places - Giles is the one I absolutely do not understand. He's the one who could influence Buffy from the start instead of issuing orders, and arguing all the time, and outright betrayal, he needed to get her to open up. After six years he knew how to do that, and she gave him plenty of opportunities.

I don't think he gave up and joined the others in kicking her out just because she was being difficult Buffy - I think it was the door closed in his face a few nights before. Faith was there, Faith listened to him, and he had a war to win. This way he could be the general, the puppet master, the mentor and guide again.

Here is the entirety of the scene as written and it's much longer and angrier:

http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/141_scri.html


(That "Welcome Home" banner is still there in the background, by the way. Not in an obvious way. Just saying.)



BUFFY
Listen, I know what you're thinking,
scary place where good guys go boom,
I get it. I do. But I had a little
visit today at the school from Caleb.
DAWN
(concerned)
Buffy, god, are you --

BUFFY
I'm fine. I mean, it wasn't fun, but
I'm fine. I'm better than fine. I
figured it out. He kept making all
this noise about the school.

WOOD
Is it the Seal again?

WILLOW
Do we need to try shutting it again?

ANYA
Andrew's got plenty of tears left in
him, just tell him they canceled
Stargate.

BUFFY
No, that's just it. We've spent so
much time being worried about the
Hellmouth and the Seal... why isn't
Caleb guarding them?


No response from the group.



BUFFY (cont'd)
Why doesn't he have someone there
protecting it?
Why is he camped out at the vineyard?
The bad guys always go where the
power is. If the Seal was so
important to Caleb and The First,
they'd be there right now. They're
trying to shake us off the trail,
it's a mislead. They're protecting
the vineyard. They're protecting
something at the vineyard. I say
it's their power.

A beat as she lets the room take this in.



BUFFY (cont'd)
And I say it's time we go take it
away from them.

Not a single person moves. Not a single person speaks.

Until:



FAITH
Or, in the alternative, how about
we... don't.
Buffy whips around, looks at Faith. Huh?



FAITH (cont'd)
It's a neat theory, B. But I'm not
going back in that place. Not
without proof. And neither should
you.
(re: the Potentials)
And neither should they.
BUFFY
I'm not saying it'll be easy --

WOOD
Buffy. Listen to what she's saying.


Buffy turns to Wood, stung.



FAITH
Maybe it'll end okay, the way you
wanna play it. But maybe it won't.
And right now... right now I don't
think I want you playing the odds.
Not with my coin.
BUFFY
I'm not just guessing about this.

FAITH
Listen. We're fighters. All of us.
But you gotta give me something to
fight. Something real. Not...

GILES
(quiet)
Windmills.

BUFFY
There is something there.

GILES
Maybe. But we don't know that for
sure.

BUFFY
You're waiting for some kind of
mystical sign to show up and tell us
it's the right time, that sort of
thing almost never happens, least,
not for us. We need to strike now.

GILES
And I think whatever is there, if
anything is there, will still be
there in a few days.

BUFFY
I don't know that. We don't know
that. What if we let it go and we
lose our chance? I'm not prepared to
live with that.

WOOD
And if we rush in now, before we're
ready, and more people get hurt, are
you prepared to live with that?


Buffy turns to him. Annoyed.



WOOD (cont'd)
You need to consider this.
BUFFY
I don't understand. Seven years I've
kept us safe by doing this, exactly
this, making the hard decisions.
Suddenly you're all acting like you
don't trust me.

GILES
But didn't you just tell me today
that you don't feel like you can
trust us? Maybe there's something
going on that we need to address.


Now it's Willow and Xander's turn to look hurt.



BUFFY
(to Giles)
Is this why you sent Spike away? To
ambush me?
RONA
(quiet)
Look around you, this isn't about
Spike. This is about you. You're
being reckless.

BUFFY
What?

RONA
(growing increasingly
pissed)
You are. I don't even know you, and
I can tell. You're so obsessed with
beating this guy that you're willing
to jump into any plan without
thinking.

BUFFY
That's not what I'm doing.


Kennedy JUMPS UP, moves toward Buffy.



KENNEDY
(seething/in Buffy's
face)
Well, that's how it feels to us!
People are dying! We. Are dying.
Willow jumps in between them, keeps Kennedy away from Buffy.



WILLOW
Back off, stop it.
Buffy looks relieved for the support.



WILLOW (cont'd)
(to Kennedy/re: Buffy)
It's not her fault. She's completely
strung out.
Whoops. There goes Buffy's relief.



BUFFY
I'm a who? I'm not --
WILLOW
Once you've had some rest, I think
you'll be able to --

BUFFY
I don't need rest! Willow, I'm fine.
I'm... I'm fine.


Willow backs down. Clearly not convinced.



BUFFY (cont'd)
And I don't recall any of you
complaining about the way we did
things when we were winning.
GILES
Buffy, the rules have changed. And
I'm not sure doing things the old way
will help you here.

BUFFY
The old way. You mean by leading.

WILLOW
No, that's not it at all, it's just --

BUFFY
Look, I wish this could be a
democracy. I really do. It would be
more fair, I agree. But democracies
don't win battles. It's a hard
truth, but there has to be a single
voice. You need me to issue orders
and be reckless sometimes and not
take your feelings into account.


She looks around.



BUFFY (cont'd)
You need someone to lead you.
ANYA
And it's automatically you. You
really do think you're better than we
are.

BUFFY
No, I --

ANYA
You do. Of course you do. That's
why it's your voice leading us.

BUFFY
Look --

ANYA
But we don't know, do we? We'll
never know. That you're actually
better. You came into the world with
certain advantages, sure, that's the
legacy.

BUFFY
I --

ANYA
But you didn't earn them. You didn't
work for them. You never had someone
come to you and say, Here, you
deserve these more than anyone else.
They were just... handed to you. And
that doesn't make you better than us.
It makes you luckier than us.

BUFFY
I've gotten you this far.

XANDER
(quietly)
Not without a price.

BUFFY
Xander...

XANDER
We follow you without question. Even
when you have no idea what you're
doing. Even when you get mad at us
for not working hard enough at a plan
which doesn't exist, because you
don't know what you're doing. We
keep following you, even then.
(beat)
And we keep paying the price.

BUFFY
(quiet)
Xander. I've paid the price, too,
sometimes.


That hangs in the air for a moment.



GILES
So how high does the price have to go
before you start saying your way
isn't right?
BUFFY
I still think attacking Caleb's power
base could end this --

GILES
Yes. You. Think. But when you act
alone --

BUFFY
Is that really something you want to
get into? 'Cause we can talk about
Spike. Or Ben.

GILES
If I acted rashly, it was to protect
you. Were you trying to protect
Annabelle? Or Chloe?

BUFFY
Stop it.

GILES
(more intense)
Or Molly? Or Xander? And it goes
even further back than that, doesn't
it?

BUFFY
Giles.

GILES
(seething)
You act alone, and people get hurt,
right? People like Jenny

BUFFY
Goddamn you, stop!!


Buffy SWEEPS a vase (maybe something vaguely African, from Joyce's gallery) off the end table. It SMASHES to the floor. Giles and Buffy stare at each other for a beat.



GILES
(calmly)
Do you see? You are not in the best
place you have ever been. You're too
raw. You need to take a break.
BUFFY
I am still responsible for this
group. I am still in charge here.

RONA
And why is that, exactly?

BUFFY
Because I'm the Slayer.

RONA
And isn't Faith a Slayer, too?


Everyone turns to Faith, who seems startled.



FAITH
Ka-wha? Whoa, whoa, whoa, so not
what I meant, I'm not the in-charge
chick, I just think B here needs to
chill out for a bit, take a siesta
maybe, but I'm not the one you want.
But no one's turning away.



KENNEDY
Maybe we need a vote. To see who
wants Faith to have a turn in charge.
BUFFY
Listen. You don't wanna do this.
(to Willow and Xander)
Guys, tell them. This is a mistake.


Total silence.



BUFFY (cont'd)
Guys?
Willow and Xander not answering.



BUFFY (cont'd)
I don't... this isn't happening.
WILLOW
You need to rest.


She looks at Xander. Maybe not able to finish this. He nods to her.



WILLOW (cont'd)
(barely able to say
it)
So maybe we should let someone else
take the wheel until you do.
XANDER
Maybe it's not such a terrible idea.
Letting Faith handle things. Letting
her be the Slayer.

 

[Fuffy]

Letting Faith handle things. Letting
her be the Slayer.

As much as I love Buffy, I'd probably turn my back on her as well because she was being way too strict the potential and Faith would have been able to manage with the potentials in a less extreme way than Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

Really, you have to post the actual scene, since this has an entirely different tone to it, So much so that it's basically non-canon.
Just like Spike's original speech in the church in 'Beneath Me' it was completely rewritten to emphasize other things.

As for to why Giles turned his back on Buffy? Simple, she turned her back on him first. She basically said 'I don't need you', and 'you can't teach me anything' and basically also said 'I don't trust ANY of you (apart from Spike)'.

Why the hell would Giles follow somebody like that? Somebody who just won't listen to him at all, who failed to listen to him the last time and in doing so led everybody to disaster? Somebody who shuts down his attempts to take charge and doesn't trust him- voicing that fact loudly and often.
Honestly, I get where he's coming from here. Giles in this scene (both versions) is saying 'let us exercise caution after the last time', Buffy is saying 'I know what's going on. Charge!'

Giles is a human being and flawed. Yes, his pride has been hurt lately but I don't honestly think that he's been vindictive here (which you seem to be implying by saying that the 'door slamming' thing was the main problem. Maybe it was the utter disaster at the vineyard?).

He's doing what he honestly thinks is right (I think they all are to a degree) and that he wants to wait until Spike and Andrew return from the mission HE sent them on. They need intel and so far they have none about the super-strong killer preacher who wiped the floor with them.

The people I agree with in this scene: Faith (simply wants Buffy to take a break because she's stressed. Buffy's paranoia/attitude gets Faith's back up and she snaps back),
Xander (he lost an eye for his friend who doesn't think he's 'watching her back' enough, can't be troubled to talk to him, so yeah, he doesn't support her. I'm shocked)
The Potentials (scared and lashing out kids pretty much. They need leadership/reassurance)
Giles (for reasons I've stated above- Giles puts the mission before everything, even Buffy. Giles would kill Dawn to save the world, he would (happily) sacrifice Spike if he thought he were a threat, he would possible oust his surrogate daughter from her leadership position if he thought that she'd lost the plot.
He doesn't do this btw, all Giles does here is simply NOT Support Buffy- which is of course exactly what Buffy thought she wanted. She had said that she doesn't need him or his judgement so he can go to hell. Until she DOES need it that is. Shame that.)

The people who are out of line (but for different reasons):
Buffy obviously (her defensiveness/paranoia in this scene are actually kinda scary. No way would I follow her ANYWHERE. She also comes across as shockingly callous and entitled)
Wood (shut the f*ck up Wood! Buffy took your advice and now you're stabbing her in the back. Tool.)
Anya (her 'lucky' speech is so out of line coming from a murdering ex-vengeance demon sociopath its not even funny. Yes, let's have Anya of all people lecture Buffy on 'specialness')
Willow (second-in-command who's been inside Buffy's mind and knows her and her 'weight of the world' martyr syndrome. Should speak the hell up and probably actually take charge. In fact I would've been perfectly happy with Faith being the figurehead for the Potentials whilst Willow gives her tips/advice from behind the scenes. Perfect duo, perfect solution)
Dawn (should've stuck up for her sister BUT also told her that this is her house too and that Buffy should go upstairs/the kitchen/the basement and calm the hell down. Then make her some cocoa like a good sister)

But that wouldn't have been dramatic enough now would it? Have to have somebody come in and help the damsel/save the day.
Because that's what the show was all about...

 

[bespangeled]

Really, you have to post the actual scene, since this has an entirely different tone to it, So much so that it's basically non-canon.
Just like Spike's original speech in the church in 'Beneath Me' it was completely rewritten to emphasize other things..

You know, you really need to actually read that scene in Beneath You before you repeat that. I remember when it was first said, and I don't think you've ever had any details. Buffy had two lines in the original - the rewrite gave her more. You would have hated the original because the entire focus was on Spike rambling and Buffy was pretty much not a part of it.

Yes, I do tend to post from the shooting script - warning that this is the shooting script - warning that the tone is more angry than the scene they shot. So what is your problem with that? Do you really think there are people here who, even with all that warning, will be fooled in some way? I tend to think that everyone here at the Buffy board has seen the show, probably multiple times - and since I provide the link I also tend to think that people here who want to can link to the site and look up the transcript. Candidly, I kinda resent the implication that I am somehow being dishonest or trying to pull a fast one.

As for being AU - I would say it is as AU to you as the comics are to me. No it's not what I saw on the screen, but it was cut for time as much as content.

As for to why Giles turned his back on Buffy? Simple, she turned her back on him first. She basically said 'I don't need you', and 'you can't teach me anything' and basically also said 'I don't trust ANY of you (apart from Spike)'..

When was that?

She did shut the door when he tried to excuse his outright betrayal by telling her it was for her own good. She told him - not that she didn't need his help, not that she didn't trust him - but that the betrayal meant he had taught her everything she needed to know. Shall we ignore the fact that Buffy felt betrayed - as Giles once said to Jenny in Passion - "that's one of the unpleasant side effects of betrayal." Buffy did nothing except refuse to mindlessly follow him up until this point. Afterward, well she really had no reason to think that he had her back because he had already massively betrayed her trust.

Why the hell would Giles follow somebody like that? Somebody who just won't listen to him at all, who failed to listen to him the last time and in doing so led everybody to disaster? Somebody who shuts down his attempts to take charge and doesn't trust him- voicing that fact loudly and often.
Honestly, I get where he's coming from here. Giles in this scene (both versions) is saying 'let us exercise caution after the last time', Buffy is saying 'I know what's going on. Charge!'.

This isn't Somebody - this is BUFFY. How often has Buffy refused to listen, made mistakes, shut down his attempts to take charge, and not trusted him? I can come up with quite a list here. Giles has dealt with all these traits for years - and he knows that arguing, ordering, and getting angry have never gotten results.

You say she voiced this loudly and often - I remember one scene that happened in private just before he joined the effort to kick her out. Care to tell me which scenes Buffy loudly and often told Giles she didn't trust him?

As for the disagreement, what can I say? Buffy was right.

Giles is a human being and flawed. Yes, his pride has been hurt lately but I don't honestly think that he's been vindictive here (which you seem to be implying by saying that the 'door slamming' thing was the main problem. Maybe it was the utter disaster at the vineyard?). .

But Giles didn't try to oust Buffy after the disaster at the vineyard, when Spike saved Xander's other eye. He did decide to stop backing her when she let him know how much his betrayal had affected her perception of his trustworthiness and honesty. I'm not saying he was vindictive - I am saying his response was to abandon her and find a slayer willing to be his instrument.

He's doing what he honestly thinks is right (I think they all are to a degree) and that he wants to wait until Spike and Andrew return from the mission HE sent them on. They need intel and so far they have none about the super-strong killer preacher who wiped the floor with them..

That may be so, but it is never mentioned in either script. What comes through clearly is that Spike is not a problem for anyone but Giles. And he is a real problem for Giles - he feels supplanted and he resents it.

The people I agree with in this scene: Faith (simply wants Buffy to take a break because she's stressed. Buffy's paranoia/attitude gets Faith's back up and she snaps back),
Xander (he lost an eye for his friend who doesn't think he's 'watching her back' enough, can't be troubled to talk to him, so yeah, he doesn't support her. I'm shocked)
The Potentials (scared and lashing out kids pretty much. They need leadership/reassurance)
Giles (for reasons I've stated above- Giles puts the mission before everything, even Buffy. Giles would kill Dawn to save the world, he would (happily) sacrifice Spike if he thought he were a threat, he would possible oust his surrogate daughter from her leadership position if he thought that she'd lost the plot.
He doesn't do this btw, all Giles does here is simply NOT Support Buffy- which is of course exactly what Buffy thought she wanted. She had said that she doesn't need him or his judgement so he can go to hell. Until she DOES need it that is. Shame that.).

Faith I have no problem with. I assume the 'won't even talk to Xander' refers to not staying at the hospital to play cards? Otherwise, please let me know what scene you're referencing.

As for Giles - you appear to agree with me. Giles wants to be in charge of this war - Faith was there, Faith listened to him, and he had a war to win. This way he could be the general, the puppet master, the mentor and guide again. And once more you let loose with some seriously exaggerated weird AU BUffy who screams often and loudly that Giles can go to hell, etc. Document, or I have to ignore this. I have seen the shows and read the scripts, and none of this publicly, loudly, and frequent castigation of Giles occurred. They disagreed - they argued - finally Giles betrayed her in several ways. He didn't just try to have Spike killed - he used her trust in him, their history, his position as her former watcher, all the years of working together, as a way to keep her occupied while someone else did the deed so she wouldn't be able to interfere. She was leery of trusting him after that betrayal.

The people who are out of line (but for different reasons):
Buffy obviously (her defensiveness/paranoia in this scene are actually kinda scary. No way would I follow her ANYWHERE. She also comes across as shockingly callous and entitled)
Wood (shut the f*ck up Wood! Buffy took your advice and now you're stabbing her in the back. Tool.)
Anya (her 'lucky' speech is so out of line coming from a murdering ex-vengeance demon sociopath its not even funny. Yes, let's have Anya of all people lecture Buffy on 'specialness')
Willow (second-in-command who's been inside Buffy's mind and knows her and her 'weight of the world' martyr syndrome. Should speak the hell up and probably actually take charge. In fact I would've been perfectly happy with Faith being the figurehead for the Potentials whilst Willow gives her tips/advice from behind the scenes. Perfect duo, perfect solution)
Dawn (should've stuck up for her sister BUT also told her that this is her house too and that Buffy should go upstairs/the kitchen/the basement and calm the hell down. Then make her some cocoa like a good sister).

I was actually interested in how much the transcript had both Xander and Willow far more eager to distance themselves from Buffy. In the shooting script Willow is almost unable to do it, and Xander has real problems.

And yes, it is Giles who has the real problem. But I saw the Jenny Calendar remark as the exact same tactic Wes used on Faith to get her attention when she was hunting Angelus.. And I actually see Giles at this point as more caring than I have seen in most of the season. Had that not been the end of the argument, it might have worked.

But that wouldn't have been dramatic enough now would it? Have to have somebody come in and help the damsel/save the day.
Because that's what the show was all about...

Uh, I have no idea what this is about. Unless it's Angel and the amulet.

 

[thetopher]

You know, you really need to actually read that scene in Beneath You before you repeat that. I remember when it was first said, and I don't think you've ever had any details.

I have read the original script thanks, its in a thread in the Sunnydale cemetery, somebody posted it there a while ago and I looked it up.

Buffy had two lines in the original - the rewrite gave her more. You would have hated the original because the entire focus was on Spike rambling and Buffy was pretty much not a part of it.

Actually I like the original more. Less Buffy-victim blaming 'service the girl' crap and more actual remorse. Spike's more honest about his motivations about getting a soul and penance. The rewritten version is just designed by the writers to illicit as much sympathy as possible for Spike.

I do agree that the aired version fits Spike's personality a lot more- the self-castigation stuff is more Angel's style.

Yes, I do tend to post from the shooting script - warning that this is the shooting script - warning that the tone is more angry than the scene they shot. So what is your problem with that? Do you really think there are people here who, even with all that warning, will be fooled in some way? I tend to think that everyone here at the Buffy board has seen the show, probably multiple times - and since I provide the link I also tend to think that people here who want to can link to the site and look up the transcript. Candidly, I kinda resent the implication that I am somehow being dishonest or trying to pull a fast one.

Firstly I don't have a problem, my (mild) concern is really only one of accuracy.

Posting the actual transcript is a more accurate account of what all the characters say/do and I think accuracy is important when referencing a crucial scene.

I implied nothing but take my advice however you want. If I had thought something else I would've said it.

As for being AU - I would say it is as AU to you as the comics are to me. No it's not what I saw on the screen, but it was cut for time as much as content.

Candidly no its not. There's plenty of instances of scripts/scenes being rewritten- a lot of the time being its script-doctoring by Joss himself- its usually done for a good reason, so certain important emotions/events can be conveyed within a scene. We're not talking about a missed line or two edited for time, we're talking about a big revision, with large potions of dialogue removed for emphasis and other bits being completely added (for example Faith following Buffy out onto the porch never happens in the original)

When was that?

In 'Dirty Girls' Giles says that they might be walking into a trap (twice) and Buffy shuts him down in front of everybody. Telling him to stay with those who 'still need a teacher'.
In 'Empty Places' when Giles sends Spike and Andrew on a mission Buffy criticizes him and says that Giles sent away 'the only person watching my back' to which Giles replies that they're all watching her back. Him, Willow, Xander, Dawn- they're all trying to help but SHE doesn't trust them.

How do you deal with that mentality? You really can't, not with a softly-softly approach that Giles DID actually try.

This isn't Somebody - this is BUFFY. How often has Buffy refused to listen, made mistakes, shut down his attempts to take charge, and not trusted him? I can come up with quite a list here. Giles has dealt with all these traits for years - and he knows that arguing, ordering, and getting angry have never gotten results.

Yeah it works both ways. THIS is Giles, her Watcher, father-figure, who's risked his life, everything, for her and her family. Who's supported her through her painful teenage years in a way her Father never did. Buffy is who she is partly because of Giles' love and support.
And yet Buffy can act like a blinkered idiot and Giles isn't allowed to (if that's what we're saying here)?

Basically Buffy takes things personally and you don't have a problem with that, and Giles takes things personally and its a massive betrayal?
I will criticize both for their actions- Giles for allowing the mutiny to progress as far as it did and letting Buffy leave and Buffy for well, a lot of S7 to be honest.

You say she voiced this loudly and often - I remember one scene that happened in private just before he joined the effort to kick her out. Care to tell me which scenes Buffy loudly and often told Giles she didn't trust him?

See above two instances where she flat-out tells him that he's not needed, his advice isn't wanted. Basically that he should shut up and keep his advice to himself. Buffy doubted him so why is Giles criticized for doubting her (and in such emotive terms as 'turning his back on her').

There are a couple of others but this post is really long. Might post them later.

As for the disagreement, what can I say? Buffy was right.

Kind of a weak argument because, judging by her rationalizing, Buffy had no basis for her 'theory' to be right.

Oh, and Giles sent Spike to that other vineyard that gained key information about Caleb's motivation, (conformation about the vineyard) so Giles was also right. Come to think of it he was technically right first, but he had the tactical sense to WAIT.

But Giles didn't try to oust Buffy after the disaster at the vineyard, when Spike saved Xander's other eye. He did decide to stop backing her when she let him know how much his betrayal had affected her perception of his trustworthiness and honesty.

Yeah, 'stop backing' is a far cry from 'oust'. Giles doesn't take that big a part in the mutiny, he just expresses his doubts about Buffy's judgement in front of an open forum- which is exactly what she did to him. So why is it right/okay that Buffy does it but wrong when Giles does it when their both being sincere?

I'm not saying he was vindictive - I am saying his response was to abandon her and find a slayer willing to be his instrument.

It certainly sounds like you're saying that Giles was being vindictive- that he took the whole thing very personally and that's why he turned on Buffy (again, I don't think he did- he just responded in kind). You're making a lot of this about Spike whilst ignoring all the other events leading up to the mutiny.

If Giles really thought that Spike was a problem then why utilize Spike for an important mission? Why not send Faith who can take care of herself and travel in daytime? Maybe because again, the mission is what comes before personal grudges/dislikes or what have you.
Although sending Andrew away was utterly personal on Giles part- but he makes no attempt to hide the fact.

That may be so, but it is never mentioned in either script. What comes through clearly is that Spike is not a problem for anyone but Giles.

The potentials do. RONA: You know what? I am sick of your deal with this Spike guy. This isn't about him. This is about you. You're being reckless.

And also:
BUFFY: Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?
GILES: (rolls his eyes, sighs) Oh, come on.

Exactly. It isn't about Spike for Giles. It's about Buffy isolating herself, pushing people away, not listening, growing paranoia. None of these things are good to have in your leader.

And he is a real problem for Giles - he feels supplanted and he resents it.

Nope, that's just what Spike says in the next episode and there really ins't a shred of evidence to it. This is what Giles has said about Buffy's grown as a slayer in the past

Buffy vs. Dracula:
GILES (to Willow): It's become quite obvious that Buffy doesn't need me anymore.And I don't say that out of self pity, I'm quite proud, actually.
The Gift:
GILES (badly injured): It's what I've always admired...Being able to place your heart above all else. (a beat) I'm so proud of you. How far you've come. You're everything a Watcher -everything I could have hoped for ...

Translation- Spike knows squat about how Giles feels about Buffy or indeed anything concerning the Watcher/slayer relationship. He's just mouthing off.
But what else is new right?

Faith I have no problem with. I assume the 'won't even talk to Xander' refers to not staying at the hospital to play cards? Otherwise, please let me know what scene you're referencing.

Yeah, the hospital where she can't even look at him. But then again he isn't watching her back and probably can't be trusted anyway. What did Xander do after all? Give a little inspirational speech while she wasn't looking to try and boost morale, eh, who needs it.

As for Giles - you appear to agree with me. Giles wants to be in charge of this war

No I don't agree with you. Giles actually has NEVER shown that he wanted to be in charge. Look at every single apocalypse and show me the evidence of this 'puppet-master' that you're so convinced that Giles is because I'm drawing a blank.
My argument is that to Giles the mission is what matters and if he thinks that the mission is in danger (example- because of poor leadership) then steps should be taken for the good of the mission.
The fact that it was Buffy just means that Giles was personally invested and so didn't really interfere with the course of events during the 'planned mutiny' (as Buffy accuses him of setting up- more mistrust).

Faith was there, Faith listened to him, and he had a war to win. This way he could be the general, the puppet master, the mentor and guide again.

See above. Where you see control I see support because that's what Giles has always been to Buffy. He's supported her leadership in return for listening to some of his wisdom. When is advice is ignored time and again then why give his support, especially when he genuinely doesn't believe her reasoning?

And once more you let loose with some seriously exaggerated weird AU BUffy who screams often and loudly that Giles can go to hell, etc. Document, or I have to ignore this.

Here's the actual transcript: (I've underlined the more blatant Buffy hysteria)

34 INT. LIVING ROOM AT BUFFY'S HOUSE - NIGHT
Buffy addresses the meeting of Giles, Dawn, Faith, Willow, Xander, Robin Wood and all the potentials in her living room. Xander is sitting in an overstuffed chair, with Dawn sitting beside him on the arm of the chair. Kennedy is sitting on the sofa, with Willow sitting beside her on the arm of the sofa. Anya is standing beside Willow with her arms crossed.

BUFFY: Look, I know what you're thinking, but I had a visit at the school today from Caleb.

DAWN: Buffy, why didn't you—

BUFFY: I'm fine. I mean, it wasn't fun, but I'm fine. I'm better than fine. I—I figured something out. He kept making all this noise about the school.

ROBIN WOOD: Is it that seal again?

WILLOW: Do we need to try shutting it again?

BUFFY: No, that's just it. We've spent all this time worrying about the seal and the hellmouth. Why isn't Caleb guarding them? Why doesn't he have someone there protecting it? Why is he camped out at the vineyard? The bad guys always go where the power is. So if the seal was so important to Caleb and the First, they would be there right now. They're protecting the vineyard or something at the vineyard. I say it's their power, and I say it's time we go in and take it away from them.

Xander shakes his head and looks down. Giles uncrosses his arms and sighs.

FAITH: (standing beside Robin Wood with her arms crossed) Or, in the alternative, how 'bout...we don't? I mean, it's a neat theory, B, but I'm not going back in that place, not without proof, and neither should you and neither should they.

BUFFY: I'm not saying it's gonna be easy.

ROBIN WOOD: I think Faith had the floor.

FAITH: Maybe it ends OK the way you wanna play it, but maybe it doesn't. And right now, I don't think I want you playin' the odds.

BUFFY: Did you come here to fight?

FAITH: Listen, we're fighters, all of us, but you gotta give me something to fight, something real, not—

GILES: (softly) Windmills. (looks at Buffy)

BUFFY: There is something there.

GILES: Maybe. But we can't be sure of that. This is a hell of a lot to ask.

ROBIN WOOD: Too much.

BUFFY: (grinning nervously, looks around) I—I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe by doing this— exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now, what— suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?

GILES: Didn't you say to me today you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that should be addressed.

BUFFY: Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?

GILES: (rolls his eyes, sighs) Oh, come on.

RONA: You know what? I am sick of your deal with this Spike guy. This isn't about him. This is about you. You're being reckless.

BUFFY: (steps back) What?

RONA: You are! I don't even know you, and I can tell! You are so obsessed with beating Caleb, you are willing to jump into any plan without thinking.

BUFFY: (through gritted teeth) That's not what I'm doing.

KENNEDY: (stands, walks up to Buffy) Well, that's how it feels to us. People are dying.

WILLOW: (stands, walks up to Kennedy) Kennedy...

KENNEDY: (turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?

WILLOW: (softly, sadly) I'm not.

BUFFY: What do you mean, you're not?

WILLOW: With everything that's happened, I— (shrugs) I'm worried about your judgment.

BUFFY: (looks around) Look, I wish this could be a democracy. I really do. Democracies don't win battles. (Xander looks away) It's a hard truth, but there has to be a single voice. You need someone to issue orders and be reckless sometimes and not take your feelings into account. You need someone to lead you.

ANYA: (calmly) And it's automatically you. (looks at Buffy) You really do think you're better than we are.

BUFFY: No, I—

ANYA: But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy.

BUFFY: I—

ANYA: But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

BUFFY: I've gotten us this far.

XANDER: But not without a price.

BUFFY: Xander—

XANDER: I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must be a little bit to my left... (shakes his head) 'cause I just don't.

BUFFY: Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again.

GILES: We are clearly demonstrating that we are not together on this!

BUFFY: (commandingly) Which is why you have to fall in line! I'm still in charge here.

RONA: Why is that, exactly?

BUFFY: Because I'm the slayer.

RONA: And isn't Faith a slayer, too?

FAITH: (caught off guard) What? Whoa, whoa, whoa. So not what I meant. I'm not in charge chick. I think B here needs to just...chill out for a little bit, take a siesta or something. But I'm not the one you want.

KENNEDY: Maybe we need a vote... to see who wants Faith to have a turn in charge.

BUFFY: (sternly) No.

KENNEDY: No, what?

BUFFY: No. You don't get to vote until I've had my chance to pal around, you know, get everybody drunk. See, I didn't get this was a popularity contest. I should have equal time to bake them cookies, braid their hair—

FAITH: Learn their names?

BUFFY: (laughs) You're just lovin' this, aren't you?

FAITH: You have no idea what I'm feeling.

BUFFY: (low, mean) Come in here, take everything that I have... You did it before. Did you tell them that? Did you tell them how you used to kill people for fun? Hey, you guys think that's nifty?

GILES: Buffy, that's enough!

FAITH:I didn't come here to take anything away from you, but I'm not gonna be your little lapdog, either. I came here to beat the other guy, to do right, however it works. I don't know if I can lead. But the real question is...can you follow?

ROBIN WOOD: So we vote.

BUFFY:Wait. Guys—

Buffy looks around—Anya's crossed her arms and stares back with pursed lips; Willow looks away—Buffy searches their faces.

BUFFY: I can't watch you just throw away everything that— (looks at Xander and at Dawn, who's not meeting her glance; Buffy holds her head up high) I know I'm right about this. I just need a little— I can't stay here and watch her lead you into some disaster.

DAWN: (stands, walks up to Buffy, softly) Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. (Buffy blinks her eyes in disbelief) So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too.

Buffy looks around then walks out the front door.

RONA: Ding dong, the witch is dead.

DAWN: (low, angrily) Shut your mouth.

Cut to:

35 EXT. FRONT PORCH AT BUFFY'S HOUSE - NIGHT
Faith follows Buffy outside.

FAITH: (concerned) Hey. Look, I swear I didn't want it to go this way—

BUFFY: (sternly) Don't.

FAITH: I mean it, I—

BUFFY: Don't...be afraid to lead them. (Buffy's face is wet with tears) Whether you wanted it or not, their lives are yours. It's only gonna get harder. Protect them, (looks at Faith) but lead them.

Faith walks back inside the house. Her face tear-streaked, Buffy walks down the front walk alone.

Cut to:

Closing credits.

Actual scene its in entirety for comparison. 🙂

They disagreed - they argued - finally Giles betrayed her in several ways. He didn't just try to have Spike killed - he used her trust in him, their history, his position as her former watcher, all the years of working together, as a way to keep her occupied while someone else did the deed so she wouldn't be able to interfere. She was leery of trusting him after that betrayal.

Again, this isn't about Spike- its about the mission. That's what Buffy fails to realize- its her problem, she equates personal and professional, she always mixing the two together in later seasons.
Giles did what he did because of a perceived threat (and a viable one imo), not because he didn't like Spike. Buffy can't see the difference and therefore refuses to listen to ANYTHING Giles has to say about anything.

I mean, I get why Buffy does this but its still totally bad judgement on her part (and in the middle of an apocalypse as well)- as is proven by the disaster at the vineyard.
If we want to use the 'well they were right' argument then Giles was right in 'Dirty Girls' and Buffy was totally wrong to disregard his advice. She got people killed because of her inability to listen to him- a personal grudge.

I was actually interested in how much the transcript had both Xander and Willow far more eager to distance themselves from Buffy. In the shooting script Willow is almost unable to do it, and Xander has real problems.

Which is why the comparison is necessary. The Scoobies come across as much nastier in the alternate version and Buffy much more reasonable- but the writers didn't want to show that, that's not what they were trying to say.
They wanted to show a worn-out Buffy at the end of her tether, who is paranoid, dictatorial and irrational.

They did this for a reason- so we could see the POV of the people who mutiny. Buffy herself says the same thing the very next episode:

BUFFY: (softly, staring off into the corner) It wasn't just Faith. It was all of them. (looks at Spike) And it's not like they were wrong. Please leave.

We get her POV and Spike's in the next episode.

And yes, it is Giles who has the real problem.

No everybody has a problem with Buffy, its what the scene is all about. The only person who never has a problem with Buffy isn't there.

Uh, I have no idea what this is about. Unless it's Angel and the amulet.

No, its about Spike riding the very next episode to pick up our feisty, dis-empowered heroine, lambaste everybody else, assault Faith (who didn't actually do anything wrong) and then run off to give his rousing speech.
Of course this tends to divide the people who watch 'Empty Places' into those who like Spike/Buffy and therefore think the Scoobies are traitors and Spike is great and those who think Buffy had it coming and cheered everybody else on.
There are some who fall in the middle (like myself) who see more sides to it but I do tend to sympathize with the people who haven't spent most of the past 6/7 episodes being utter jerks.

 

[white avenger]

Every time I see this scene or read the script, I become more and more certain of just how wrong Buffy was here. Call it an army, call it a guerrilla band. call it whatever you might care to, the group of people in that house were there under Buffy's protection, eating her food, sleeping warm and comfy in her beds (okay, most of them were probably sleeping on the floor) and they have nothing whatsoever to say as long as she is going out every night, risking her life. Let them take part in one battle, get a few people hurt, and at least one killed, and they're ready to let someone who they know nothing about beyond the fact that Andrew told them that she once killed a Vulcan.

I can forgive Xander, sort of. He had just lost an eye, and was almost certainly high on pain medication. And Giles was obviously miffed at how ungrateful she was for his helping Wood try to kill Spike. I can even understand Wood, because Buffy had the temerity to not only object to his trying to kill the person who Buffy considered to be the strongest fighter in her army, but to say that that most powerful fighter had her permission to kill him if he ever tried anything that stupid again.. I mean, after all, Spike was wearing his mother's coat. What's trying to save the world, compared to something as downright rude as that?

But just what the hell was Dawn thinking? Anyone reading this, just imagine back to when you were in high school. Regardless of circumstances or motivation, would you EVER think of throwing your parents out of their home? As for Willow, I guess Kennedy had, by that time, had her so befuddled, what with that tongue stud and all, that she just plain didn't hear what was being said around her.

Let's call Buffy, the Scoobies, and the Potentials a gang, since the words "army" and "general" seem to be so objectionable to some people here. A gang has to have a leader, and that leader has to be the one who makes the rules, who decides what battles are fought, and in general, who does what, when. the gang is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and Buffy is the dictator. She would have been completely within her rights to kick all of them out the door.

Am I the only one here who sees the irony in the fact that the group threw Buffy out because she wanted to take them back into battle, but willingly follows Faith into battle two days later? Then, after Faith led the girls into a trap (no more her fault that it was Buffy's when she led them into the vineyard) only to be rescued by Buffy, who is armed with a spectacular weapon that she just obtained from... could it possibly have been the vineyard, where she wanted them to go in the first place? Then, the question asked of Buffy was, "Are you coming back?"

And, incidentally, Principal Robin Wood heeds to check the rules of parliamentary procedure more carefully. Buffy had the floor. The only way that Faith could have had it would have been if Buffy had called for a discussion on the matter of returning to the vineyard. Faith was out of order.

 

[gillianmorsee]

I think that everyone, including Giles, was acting a bit OOC in that scene. Haven't they all been through enough with Buffy to know that she always comes through? Always wins? They should have supported her, in my opinion, but maybe had a talk with her about the things that were upsetting them. They shouldn't have berated her and then kicked her out, that's for sure. Buffy has saved the world again and again, proven again and again that she always gets the job done, but now all of the sudden Giles and everybody is questioning her judgement? It all just seemed strange and OOC to me.

 

[NikonTheVampire]

They shouldn't have berated her and then kicked her out, that's for sure. Buffy has saved the world again and again, proven again and again that she always gets the job done, but now all of the sudden Giles and everybody is questioning her judgement? It all just seemed strange and OOC to me.

Understanding this part of season 7 give all the non initiated something to talk about. The fact is that Season 7 is the most uneven season of all. And not because of the writers. It is just to short. If season 7 lasted 25-30 episodes, I think that the story lines would have been developed better.

Giles betraying his slayer/daughter is forced and out of place. It is all because of the season's pacing. Everything moves really fast after conversations with Dead People. From there, the season is without breaks till the end