Why didn't I remember this?(possible "Chosen" spoiler)

phoenixrising

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This might be a spoiler for anyone that hasn't seen "Chosen", so if you haven't... move on.

In the fight scene where Anya was killed, why didn't I remember it being as brutal as it is? I thought it was the usual slash-the-back-of-the-person-but-don't-see-the-wound thing. Instead, in watching the DVD, it is brutal, graphic and very upsetting. I had to pause the DVD and turn away for a second (which is a testement to Joss Whedon's writing and Emma Caufield's acting). But I did not remember seeing the sword actually cut through her.

Anyone else experience this?
 
Perhaps they cut it out because of it being too violent for public TV?

Has anyone NOT seen Chosen? It's been a few years since BtVS ended..!
 
phoenixrising said:
In the fight scene where Anya was killed, why didn't I remember it being as brutal as it is? I thought it was the usual slash-the-back-of-the-person-but-don't-see-the-wound thing. Instead, in watching the DVD, it is brutal, graphic and very upsetting. I had to pause the DVD and turn away for a second (which is a testement to Joss Whedon's writing and Emma Caufield's acting). But I did not remember seeing the sword actually cut through her.

Anyone else experience this?

Actually, yeah. In fact it's been mentioned several times by different posters here at B-B. I know what you mean. The first time you notice it, you go "Wow! Look at that!".

In fact here's my post when I first noticed it:

07-13-2003, 04:43 AM

nerd4hire

Exactly How Anya Gets It In "Chosen"



Has anyone rewound the Anya death scene from "Chosen" a few times to get a better idea of exactly how Anya dies.

I was surprised to discover it's actually a very powerful and heroic scene.

First of all Anya does actually save Andrew.

The first time I saw Chosen I thought Andrew was just trying to make Xander feel good when he says "She died trying to save my life", but no, that's actually what happened. Andrew is being attacked by a bringer. They cut to Anya fighting. You see her stab a bringer, but because of the quickness of the cuts and the confused angles, you don't immediately notice she is killing the bringer that was attacking Andrew.

The way they present it, it's almost like they're trying to hide it from you. Why would they do that?

Also...if you can't tell me exactly, blow for blow how Anya dies, you have to rewind it and watch again. It is just soooo cool. What happens is a bringer comes up behind Anya with a little scimitar looking sword. The first time I saw the scene, I thought he just stabbed her. That isn't what happens. He comes up behind her, lifts the scimitar over his head and hacks downward at an angle catching her on the top right hand corner, between her shoulder, and her neck. The force of the blow continues downward at an angle slicing through her body until it is stopped by the topmost corner of her left hip bone. It's gruesome.

I didn't catch any of that the first time I saw the scene. Maybe it was just my crappy TV, I don't know. Maybe you're all saying "What's he talking about. I saw all that the first time". All I know is I didn't catch it. When I did figure it out, I went "Wow!!!".

So here's my question. Assuming I saw that scene the same way most of you saw it the first time I viewed it, why would they do that? Why would they deliberately obscure the details of the death of Anya. It's such a downer, such an unnecessary anti-climax, the way it appears at first viewing...Then you notice they actually had a righteous, power-scene for the "death of Anya" sitting right in front of them? Why did they obscure everything? Did they do it on purpose, or was it just another Season 7 screw-up?


https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=6111&highlight=anya+death
 
The very first time I saw Chosen, I saw the Anya death scene exactly as N4H described above. It happened SO fast that I turned to my hubby and said "did I just see that??" And he was like "OMG I can't believe they did it like that!!!" It was just a shocker all round!
 
I still haven't seen the unedited version. BBC2 postponed their late night showing of it until we were on holiday and we'd already set the VCR chock full of stuff we hadn't already seen...one day perhaps...
 
I know what you mean. The first time I saw it on finale night, I saw Anya get 'stabbed" as I put it. I asked my boyfriend if he had seen her get stabbed, and he was like "uh no, she was practically sliced in half."

He noticed, I didn't.

But it very gruesome and very sad.

But I have not noticed that Anya actually saved Andrew. I'll have to watch that again.
 
Mr. Pointy said:
I still haven't seen the unedited version. BBC2 postponed their late night showing of it until we were on holiday and we'd already set the VCR chock full of stuff we hadn't already seen...one day perhaps...

Don't read the rest of this OK Mr. Pointy? Just cover your eyes, and call Mrs. Pointy to the computer screen.

Mrs. Pointy; Season 7 is out on DVD, and Christmas is only a month away.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002XVKMC/002-0909178-3229637?v=glance
 
I don't think Anya actually saved Andrew. I always thought it was just Andrew saying that she did to make her death more noble for Xander.
 
Jenny
Jenny
You should! You deserve it hon!
I saw it for it's brutal nature the first time around. I was a bit taken aback but I had read she was sure to die because Emma really didn't want to come back. It was a good death. Very well done.
 
Jacklyn said:
I don't think Anya actually saved Andrew. I always thought it was just Andrew saying that she did to make her death more noble for Xander.

This is exactly right.

In the commentary for 'Chosen' (yes, I watch the commentaries, especially Joss Whedon's. I'm a geek), Joss said he wanted a middle-of-the-battle, un-heroic type of death and Anya got the nod for it. She was no where near Andrew when she gets killed.

Anya's death was to have no meaning, but the writer in Joss couldn't do it that way and so we have Andrew's comment. For most of the season he had been scorned for making up stories, yet that very thing gives Xander what Xander needs and Anya the epic, heroic death she didn't get.
 
I just rewatched it minutes ago...I agree with the very un-heroic type death. Anya was a hero, at times, in her own right, but she didn't go out like Spike did...not even close.
 
Naturally I had to dig out my old Chosen tape, blow the dust off it, and give it another view.

So I slipped it in the box, and fast-forwarded to the death of Anya scene, and oh my God, you three appeared to be correct. Anya was nowhere near Andrew. How could I be so daft? How could I think Anya saved Andrew?

But wait a minute. The truth is I'm not that daft. I might miss something on the first go around, but not on the third of fourth. I'd watched that whole fight scene frame by frame before, many times. Obviously I'd seen something then, that I was missing now.

I rewound the tape, and... hang on a sec. There's another part of the Anya/Andrew fight scene that occurs earlier.

I went through it frame by frame. This is what happens:

*

Anya and the dungeon master (Andrew) are guarding the north hall.

They are positioned at a 3-way corner, where 2 corridors meet.

Let's call the corridor that goes right to left, South to North. We'll call the other corridor that comes to meet it at a dead end East to West. It dead ends on the western side. The South to North Corridor goes straight through.

A&A stand in front of lockers along the north side of the E-W corridor. They face South.

Uber-vamps and Bringers come at them from the south up the South-North corridor.

Andrew ducks behind Anya, and turns South up the South to North corridor. He is stopped almost immediately by a bringer and points his sword at him. He tells the Bringer he has swimmer's ear.

Anya battles 2 uber-vamps. One is on her south side, the other on her north.

She slices off the head of the one to the South. He dusts, and she turns to face the one to the North, on the side where Andrew and the 2 bringers are. Bringers start to sneak up the East to West Corridor from behind Anya.

OK at this point we have to fast forward up to the next part of the Anya/Andrew battle scene.

This scene shows us what is happening to Andrew as Anya is fighting the uber-vamps.

The first bringer maneuvres past Andrews sword. He is unarmed. He pins Andrew against the wall facing east. Andrew Falls down to his butt, and lowers his head into a kind of foetal position.

Another Bringer lifts a knife into a stabbing pose.

He is standing on the South side of Andrew, just before where the South-North, and East-West corridors meet.

Andrew is on his North. Anya is to his South.

OK now let's rewind back to the scene we left prematurely. I'll show you what happens next, and how Anya saves Andrew.

When last we saw Anya she had dusted the ube to her South, and was now facing the one to her North. Further North was Andrew.

Anya dusts the vampire on her Southern side. She then lifts the sword abover her head, and (drum-roll please) strikes down at something beyond the corner. It's right about at the exact spot where the Bringer would be that is about to stab Andrew. Anya saves Andrew.

OK, so why did Joss say he wanted to give Anya an un-heroic end?

First of all he didn't just say it on the DVD. He's said it in interviews. If you do a board search on Death of Anya, you'll find people talking about it.

But back to it. I'm a fond beleiver in the "Joss is God when it to the Buffyverse" school. What he says goes, but here's the thing. God is tricky.

Joss is just as fond of putting hidden stuff in his interviews, and it would seem his DVD commentaries, as he is in his scripts. He's as quick with it as Tara is at hiding the demon seeking powder under the bed.

I could give you examples, but we'd wind up arguing about stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Here's one that hasn't happened yet though, just to give you a taste of what I'm talking about.

Joss has said in at least 2 spots I can think of off the top of my head that Gunn dies in the alley after Not Fade Away. Once he almost appeared to be joking when he said it. The other time he appeared to be serious.

Here's the thing though. Knowing that, are you prepared to bet either way that Gunn is either dead or alive should a follow-up ever appear on the horizon to Not Fade Away. Would you bet money there's not going to be a curve-ball such as Gunn's a vampire?

So yeah Joss is God, and I believe everything he says, but it's a matter of interpretation. Anya is given an un-heroic end. That's the one you three saw, but if you go back and view both scenes frame by frame, you'll see Anya also dies a hero. She saved Andrew.

I admit in order to see the two scenes this way you have to see the time sequence as being slightly out of whack. You have to see the second scene of Andrew cowering on the floor as a kind of flashback, but what's the alternative?

The Bringer is bringing his knife down to kill Andrew. If nothing stopped him, what happened? Did the whistle blow for lunch?

Anya definitely steps around that corner with her sword above her head to strike at something right about at the same spot where the Bringers are attacking Andrew. In fact even if she didn't kill the Bringer in the second scene, she was still attacking something that was after Andrew.

Also if you put both scenes together it had to have happened pretty much the way I described it, with Anya stepping backwards later into the centre of the hall. So what makes more sense? A tricky flashback, time sequence change, or we didn't see a Bringer about to kill Andrew, and Anya about to strike something at that spot. Because I definitely saw those two things.
 
P
phoenixrising
Good points and I feel I am among kindred spirits here.
OMG N4H! Did you watch it in super slow mo?! hehe. Ok I believe you...the scene just happens really fast and to the untrained eye it looks as though they aren't near each other.
 
Well typed N4H, that is how I originally interpreted the scene. I have the DVDs now and will be watching that scene in slow-mo a few times.

I figured by "unheroic" death he meant that:

A - there was nobody there to really see it, except for a formerly-evil man known for making up stories

B - it wasn't the catalyst that lead to victory (a-la-Spike)

C - it happend so fast - not much screen time or not a slow death-scene where people cry over it

D - her body was never found, so she was forevor lost in the pit that became Sunnydale, thus not letting them put her body to rest in the 'traditional' sense.
 
C
Cordelia
good points jenny...
Well yeah, and thus the comment by Joss about an unheroic death for Anya, but if you choose to see the other death of Anya scene, the Anya dies a hero scene, it's there too.
 
Jenny
Jenny
Totally agree with you there, I meant 'unheroic' in regards to Joss' comments!
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