Why do people insist Faith was a lesbian?

Wasnt Queer as Folk big over there? Australia had gay and lesbian characters all through the 90's. I remember seeing French orgies on SBS (free to air tv). Fitting into strict sexual labels is more of an issue now than it was back then. Run in the right circles and everyone has hooked up with everyone yet still don't label themselves, nor do they have to. US mainstream media is not the whole entire world of things.

As for Faith being a lesbian, and some lesbians being violently opposed to any other option - that's just their fantasy. We don't see evidence of that in the text (to date). Loads of virgins online @burrunjor , who are absolutely sure of a thing they have never experienced. See - Jojo Siwa and the backlash she got for batting for both sides. It wouldn't have been such a big deal to do that in the late 90's/00's.
BTVS was a series geared at a younger audience. QAF was for adults, it appears.

Willow made her choice clear with "gay now" so I'd take her word, that shes not going back.

I cant be bothered getting dragged into another boring sexuality debate, so that's all I have to say about that.

That's fair. I just think it was a network issue that wouldn't allow Willow to identify as bisexual. She had a crush on Giles, she was in love with Xander for many years, and had a serious relationship with Oz.

The WB network was a bit more 'family friendly' so I imagine they (the execs) called some of the shots on what Joss wanted for his characters.
 
Re; Gay Xander; The writers room had the germ of an idea that either Xander or Willow would be revealed as gay, and inserted a few lines to hint at this. But there's never been any statement to the effect that got any farther than that.
 
Re: Gay Willow: Willow was... In love with a person, not a sex or gender, which is probably 90s code for woman who calls herself bisexual, but doesn't have any boyfriends. She became gay in season 7 because some parties didn't react well to killing Tara and Xander saying I love you, and giving Willow a conventionally attractive girlfriend was intended as a peace offering.
 
burrunjor
burrunjor
LOL did that backfire re Kennedy. Willow to me is definitely bi, but someone who thinks because of her current relationship that she is one way or the other. She clearly wasn't in the closet in s1-3. The relationship with Oz meant something.
I'd agree with the statement by @AlphaFoxtrot that Willow fancied Tara, not making her gay despite what Kennedy's thick as a brick mind thought. (and Joss' as such)
Makes me think that the series was ordered to end by the studio execs at end of S7 because of Joss Whedon's attitude and his negative comments to the actors, could it be that he treated the crew the same? Lining him up with adult actors in the Marvel world may have been just a peace offering.
Lets kick Joss in the (oh, it is a family friendly board so I can't finish what I was saying) now that he's down.
 
Re: Gay Xander; Joss proposes the plot direction to Nick. Nick, having been molested as a child by a male teacher, is reluctant to play the role, but can't tell Joss that, is afraid his career is already over, and accepts the change with a promise of a career revival. Xander comes out in season 4. Latter in the season, we meet his boyfriend. The boyfriend has the chemistry of Mark Blucas. After the story fails, the writers have no further ideas for him. Xander is regulated to "The Sassy Gay Friend," doing the same gags that Andrew or Lorne would have done. Now cast as the fat gay friend, Nicky begins to drink, leading to his role being cut back as he becomes more unreliable. So, really the same as before, just less making out with Emma.
 
Re: Gay Xander; Joss proposes the plot direction to Nick. Nick, having been molested as a child by a male teacher, is reluctant to play the role, but can't tell Joss that, is afraid his career is already over, and accepts the change with a promise of a career revival. Xander comes out in season 4. Latter in the season, we meet his boyfriend. The boyfriend has the chemistry of Mark Blucas. After the story fails, the writers have no further ideas for him. Xander is regulated to "The Sassy Gay Friend," doing the same gags that Andrew or Lorne would have done. Now cast as the fat gay friend, Nicky begins to drink, leading to his role being cut back as he becomes more unreliable. So, really the same as before, just less making out with Emma.
We didn't need Joss to fumble another queer character. Though I will say I feel like it wouldn't have been exactly the same, queer and straight are different. Though Willow and Tara were pretty respected (I thought there would be some homophobia).
 
Coming back for another point, people LOVE toxic relationships in media. I personally HATE the trope that Faith turned evil because she was romantically in love with Buffy and Buffy didn’t return her feelings. The body swap adds another level of toxicity that the Faith’s a lesbian crowd love. I truly don’t like the trope of the evil guy/girl that couldn’t have the good girl protagonist and snaps. It’s literally my least favorite writing trope. I also think in Faith’s case it’s reductive of a complex character.

Shippers in general can just be really aggressive/toxic. There are plenty of people that think that Faith is bi or a lesbian and are completely normal about it there are plenty of people that see her and Buffy as having had a thing in season three and are normal about it. The people that aren’t normal about it are people who think that they are the other half to each others souls and neither of them have never had a meaningful connection outside of each other. Not because they feel this way, I disagree but I don’t care but because these people can be aggressive when their ship/perspective is challenged.
Oh god THANK YOU. I HATE the cliche of the villain is in love with the hero. I'm not saying it can never work, but it is so childish when that is all anyone's go to from batman and the Joker to the Doctor and the Master, and it is often homophobic as they often portray the villain as a creepy perverted gay cliche too.

I can't stand it when it is the go to for straight relationships either. That's a big part of why I loathe Spuffy. It was so infantile to make out Spike was just obsessed with Buffy because he wanted to bang her. He and Buffy actually had a good dynamic that was more unique of a male villain and a female villain who genuinely hated each other, but nope they had to ruin it and make it lowest common denominator porn in s6 that demeaned both characters.

Meanwhile bisexuals I think have a somewhat odd place in terms of being represented. Sometimes they are seen as more acceptable by straight people, in spite of the bigotry they can still be subject to. I suppose it makes sense in a way as a straight person perhaps can still fantasise about them more easily or they can relate to the bi person's straight relationships?

This can lead to gay people saying they are bi or gay characters being presented as bi to fit in. Examples of this include Samantha Fox, a full on lesbian who said she was bi as she was afraid being gay would ruin her male fanbase. Similarly I have always felt that Captain Jack Harness was only made bisexual to make him more digestable on a family show back then.

He was pretty obviously gay. He has virtually NO long term relationships with women. Okay he maybe flirts a bit with them, but yeah he's basically written as gay. I know bisexuality is a spectrum and not everyone is 50/50, but even then in Jack's case you could take out his minor flirting with women and nothing would change about his arcs or character. Granted his grandson is an example of one of his straight relationships being important, but even then gay men do have kids as well for various reasons.

That said however lots of straight people will still see a bi person as "just experimenting" and not see their sexuality as valid, so it's not like their sexuality is accept. Indeed plenty of famous bisexual people like Amy Winehouse are still seen as straight because their most famous relationship was straight.

However at the same time many gay people I think come to resent bisexual people for being the more acceptable face of LGBT, and as I said I think a lot of lesbians feel that a bisexual female character going off with a man is "a lesbian being made straight" so yeah they often come down harder on bisexual characters or insist no matter how stupid it is that a bisexual character is a lesbian, making them EXACTLY the same as the straight people who see it as just a phase.

Xena and Gabrielle are the funniest example of this, the way both are clearly bi characters but the lesbian fandom insist that they were both lesbians in the closet LOL. Indeed one could say lesbians stole Xena and Gabreille from the bisexual community. Why are they always brought up as a big deal for lesbians? Why aren't they bi icons? I'm not saying that lesbians can't feel represented obviously or enjoy them just as much, I'm not a tribalist, but it is funny that bisexual people who Xena and Gabrielle actually represent are NEVER mentioned in terms of the shows impact?

So yes bisexual people are in this weird in between place of actually being more represented, with characters like Xena, Gabrielle, Captain Jack, White Canary from Legends of Tomorrow, Susan Ivanova from B5, Constantine etc, that's FAR more mainstream bisexual characters than gay ones, because people thought the writers thought they could get away with that more, yet ironically nobody ever sees them as bisexual and indeed people will say calling them bisexual as homophobic ironically.
 
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Re: Oz: Yeah, I don't really care what a fictional character's precise sexuality is. If I understand the Kinsley report correctly, lesbians can have past and future relationships with men. But, I do bristle at the suggestion that Willow and Oz did not enjoy intimacy during their relationship.
 
Re: Oz: Yeah, I don't really care what a fictional character's precise sexuality is. If I understand the Kinsley report correctly, lesbians can have past and future relationships with men. But, I do bristle at the suggestion that Willow and Oz did not enjoy intimacy during their relationship.
Of course they can, but again a big difference between.

1/ A lesbian who is with a man to cover up, or because she is in denial due to internalized homophobia. Those relationships are often passionless, awkward and unfulfilling. Obviously yes the lesbian can develop affection for the man as a person, but it won't be a satisfying relationship by nature hence why they don't last. (Incidentally what's a lesbian's version of the beard called? I don't know is it The lipstick or something to keep with the something over the face theme LOL.)

2/ A woman who prefers women overall and usually goes for women, but has some genuine relationships with men, where the attraction is real, she WANTS to be with him and it isn't because of internalized homophobia or anything and they enjoy a healthy sex life.

The latter is bisexual by definition LOL. You can't have a genuine willing relationship with a man and be a lesbian. Even if you mostly prefer women and the guys are outliers, that still makes you bisexual. Lesbian is exclusively same sex attracted bi is both. It's as simple as that to me.

Re Willow again as you say her and Oz's relationship was clearly genuine. She tries to KILL herself when he cheats she is so upset. That's not someone who doesn't really care and is lying to themselves. She even considers going back with him but ultimately chooses Tara.

She is definitely bisexual, but they made her gay because I think the studio demanded she either be straight or gay for some reason. To be fair if Joss said if he did it today she would be classed as bisexual. That's fair enough, but it's just the other characters who unlike Willow that did at least never go back to guys, who jump back and forth that people insist are lesbians or just gay that I think gets a bit iffy, like Gabrielle from Xena who sleeps with men as late as season 6 (the last season) and canonically has children after Xena died, or again for argument's sake Faith who even if you argue she had a thing for Buffy still had male relationships that we get into bi erasure.
 
Andrew is shown to believe Warren will rescue him and the subtext is very gay. Warren has always been the ideal as far as he is concerned. Warren does not reciprocate, so Andrew is left out. Later, in Angel, he is shown as coming out of a room with two hot women, so maybe he is bi. The writers keep their options open to attract the LGBT community without making it so obvious that people who only accept straight characters may not notice.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
He obviously thinks Spike is hot too.
Andrew came as, barely, closeted gay to me.
 
Andrew is shown to believe Warren will rescue him and the subtext is very gay. Warren has always been the ideal as far as he is concerned. Warren does not reciprocate, so Andrew is left out. Later, in Angel, he is shown as coming out of a room with two hot women, so maybe he is bi. The writers keep their options open to attract the LGBT community without making it so obvious that people who only accept straight characters may not notice.
Ironically I think that Andrew being made bisexual was a bit off as he was very clearly gay before hand and the bi bit was apparently a mistake as it was supposed to be Dawn in that episode and not Andrew, but Michelle was busy (or perhaps just didn't want to work with Joss again LOL.) The ending would have been Dawn getting dolled up for a night on the town showing she is a woman now and not Spike's "little bit" to show how people can change.

For the rewrite the person apparently didn't know about Andrew's history and so had him getting off with hot babes to keep the people can change idea. Still yes going by the show and not behind the scenes bit, that does point to him being bi.

I do wish they had Dawn in that episode only because it would have been the first and only meeting between Dawn and Angel. Crazy to think those characters never met given how important both were to Buffy.
 
I do wish they had Dawn in that episode only because it would have been the first and only meeting between Dawn and Angel. Crazy to think those characters never met given how important both were to Buffy.

I did wonder if maybe they might have met off-screen after the events of "Forever" It's certainly possible, even though not mentioned. Or, later, in S7 when Angel brought the Shiny Geegaw of Mcguffiness.
 
That's the thing, he works equally well as both a closeted gay character, and an unattractive, socially repellent straight character. He can easily be a straight character with gay mannerisms who is not aware of them. That's like, 40% of the jokes concerning about Tobias Funke from Arrested Development, and he clearly wasn't gay.

However, if I had to guess, the Angel writers had either forgotten this, or just didn't know, created the girl gag, everyone thought it was funny, and they just went with it. Consistency is for characters not credited as "Tucker's Brother."
 
NileQT87
NileQT87
I always saw those girls not as dates, but rather Andrew's team of Slayers he has posing as such to make himself seem cool in order to show up Angel and Spike as part of his big joke. I've always seen it as just another lie, not a casting mistake.
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
I would say that Andrew clearly showed attraction to males, not females, rather than showing gay mannerisms.
Yeah I agree with NotASlayer, Andrew isn't just effeminate or girly. Hell Ross and Chandler from Friends have moments where they are not manly and are ripped on for it like Ross liking the cookies that aren't big butch manly cookies LOL. Andrew however fantasises about guys with their shirts off and watches footage of Xander and Anya talking and repeats what Anya says showing he's infatuated with Xander.

I will say though having him plan to rape Katrina was a huge mistake. They should have had that be something Warren did on his own. Made Andrew hard to see as a bumbling quasi sympathetic villain. I know that he killed Jonathan LOL, but to be fair he was tricked that way, unlike Katrina that was straight up evil.
 
Yeah I agree with NotASlayer, Andrew isn't just effeminate or girly. Hell Ross and Chandler from Friends have moments where they are not manly and are ripped on for it like Ross liking the cookies that aren't big butch manly cookies LOL. Andrew however fantasises about guys with their shirts off and watches footage of Xander and Anya talking and repeats what Anya says showing he's infatuated with Xander.

And instead of focusing on Kennedy and Willow making out (and that regularly draws male attention), he instead focused on a window. Repaired by Xander.

I will say though having him plan to rape Katrina was a huge mistake. They should have had that be something Warren did on his own. Made Andrew hard to see as a bumbling quasi sympathetic villain. I know that he killed Jonathan LOL, but to be fair he was tricked that way, unlike Katrina that was straight up evil.

It is rather in character for how he was presented, though; the subservient individual to a more dominant one. But yes, not something that made his character remotely endearing.
 
Makes me question what those terms mean, I thought bi would mean bi-sexual, in that the person went with males and females at the same time presumably at the same time, ie not being faithful to a specific person. Willow did not date Tara and Oz at the same time. Oz left Willow to pursue his own self belief, while he was gone Willow fell for Tara. It was when Oz came back that he was upset at Willow not waiting for him (the dickhead).
Was there ever a time that Buffy and Faith made out together? Not to my knowledge, maybe in the comics though but I never read any of the comics. Wasn't the character Satsu only in the comics cos as far as I am concerned the comics were and are not canon and as such do not count.
 
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