I have never met a Spike fan who actually excuses Spike and doesn't think he can do wrong. Most of us, myself included, understand Spike and love it when he does wrong because he always learns from his mistakes. The journey Spike takes is just plain beautiful. He learns so much, and grows so much. And he does his best growing through thinking about the mistakes he's made.
See I don't see this at all, Spike for me doesn't grow at all as a character until Chosen.
When he's introduced he's a selfish guy who has no backbone to stand up to his girlfriend, he does everything for her, and while I think that looks like he's a selfless character, I think it's the reverse, he goes out of his way to be nice so she stays with him.
This is carried forward to Buffy, he does everything for her - but not for her, but to get her to like him, I don't see that as selfless at all, it's purely selfish. Like when everyone turns on Buffy and kick her out, I know everyone has opinions on that, but I think the gang were right, Buffy was correct in her plan, but was doing everything the wrong way, the gang was right to show her she was spinning out of control, but Spike just sides with her and Buffy can do no wrong.
I think it's like this right up till Chosen, when Buffy says I love you to him, he knows shes saying it to be nice, and he says no you don't, because he no longer needs her approval, he actually is proving himself a hero, he isn't just saving the day for Buffy.
I hate to say it... well actually I don't but I know there's going to be a HUGE emotional response so... But Seeing Red was the biggest spout of growth Spike ever made. He thought about the mistake he made in that bathroom and while talking to Clem he realized exactly how bad it was. He went to get his soul because he realized how horrible what he did was and he didn't want to do something like that again. He wanted to have a moral compass. He grew into that from that mistake. To me, that's a really beautiful thing. I HAVE to believe that people can grow from even the worst mistakes... because I've made some awful ones and continue to make mistakes every day. And Spike gives that to me.
I couldn't disagree more.
This is what I was saying when I said it's fans opinions on Spike that have developed my hate for him. And I don't mean to aim it at you Zobo, this is an opinion I've come across frequently.
But where are you getting this from? Because the show I saw has a Spike who just attempted to rape Buffy, he clearly explains his reason while he is doing it, that he knows she loved him, becasue he felt it when he was with her, so he tried to be with her to make her feel it. Then when he gets back to Clem, to me he pretty much explains that he wants to get his soul back because thats the only thing stopping Buffy from loving him.
He doesn't understand the feels between them, he confuses sex and love and believed Buffy would "love" him when he was having sex with her, when he thinks about it, he then thinks he needs his soul for her to love him.
And again none of this is selfless, he didn't do it for Buffy, he did it to prove to her that she was in love with him, believing that if he came back with his soul she would have to love him.
I understand that allot of what happens is up to interpretation, but in this particular case, if you look at the script, read what Spike Says to Buffy during the scene, what he says to Clem it's so clear his thought process, but then people say he got his soul because he knew he did wrong, which I just dont see at all.
The grey area of Spike's character also confuses people often. Some people need black and white to understand things. Those people drive me crazy because nothing in the world is actually black and white... but some people need these definite terms nonetheless. To those people, Spike will never make sense... they'll never be able to trust anything he does. Because they'll never be sure of his motives. They'll never be able to empathize because he just did something terrible. They'll never be able to grasp the emotional motivator because emotions are all over the place and with Spike they're never just this or that. He likes Buffy... but hates her. He loves Buffy... but wants to kill her. He hates himself, but doesn't want to die. He wants his soul, but came to that conclusion through hurting Buffy. To a black and white person, all of this sounds just like inconstant writing rather than a character who acts on emotion alone.
I'd continue, but I'm not sure how much sense I'm making... I have a lot of thoughts and feelings....
I agree with this, I think there is way to much of a grey area around Spike. The writers didn't seperate pre and post soul Spike enough, something that was clearly set out for them.
Now I know it goes under the heading of Spike being this special vampire, but what I have a problem with is when you are discussing something with his fans, one will say about how wonderful he is, then you bring up Seeing Red, and it's "Oh no he didn't have a soul it's excusable" - To me, I can take that, but I think that means everything pre soul should be excusable, that he couldn't have loved Buffy in season 5 and 6 because it wasn't the same person.
Now people will say "I agree, and I think they only loved each other from Season 7 on" - I can get on board with that, but it isn't a general conciousness, it varies fan to fan, whereas with Angel you have a clear divide, you don't hear Angel fans saying he was so in love with Buffy because he tried to kill her when he was Angelus, Angelus and Angel are taken as separate people, as they should be, because thats the way the show sets up the vampire mythology, but then when it comes to Spike, because he's a fan favourite all the rules have to be changed.
