Why do we talk about Spike's AR far more than Faith's?

[NightLady]

Why DON'T we talk about Faith's attempted rape nearly to the extent that we do Spike's?

Very interesting question.

I have to state beforehand that I don't remember much of the scene between Faith and Xander, anyway I think it wasn't the only other case equally dismissed (Xander and Buffy in the Pack, to mention one).
Answering the question, I believe there are several reasons:

- because of the way the scene in the bathroom was filmed. The victim's reaction at the moment (we saw Buffy crying and shout but I don't remember Xander acting the same way), the lights, the music, everything made it "“ purposefully - all the more real. While the others were almost jokes.

- because a woman raping a man seems a fantasy, something that can never happen. The reverse, again, is real and people can relate on a personal level

- because of everybody's reactions after the fact. Even if the show didn't became the tale of a rape victim (thank goodness), what happened was addressed in one way or another by mostly all the characters, while the other events were quickly forgotten (if ever addressed in the first place)

- and last but not least, because Faith was not part of the triangle Angel/Buffy/Spike and does not have has much lovers or haters as Spike has. And I'm saying this with no intention of starting a Spuffy/Bangel debate!

 

[Blaze]

Also I don't really consider Faith's thing with Xander was an AR. She was flat out trying to kill him in an overtly sexual position just because she was digging the power trip. She was more interested in killing Xander than actually raping him in my opinion.

I haven't really spoken on this thread yet because I don't remember the scene well enough, and I didn't want to say something that came out wrong, but you brought a point that I believe should be discussed. So from memory, the sex was actually consensual, Xander was okay with it, until Faith tried to choke him, so to me, that doesn't sound like a rape, but more so Faith flipping out and trying to kill the guy she was having sex with.

Now, again, I haven't seen that episode in a long time, so I might be completely wrong, and I'm not trying to debate that it isn't a rape (like I said it might be), I'd like to hear other's opinion on the subject. Obviously I should just go re-watch the scene, but I'd just like some clarification, because from memory, I thought the sex was consensual.

Also, if it really is an AR, it's really a shame that they dealt with it that way. The last time I saw the ep was years ago, and obviously I was younger and more "innocent", and the scene didn't register as rape, so I do think they dealt with it really poorly. Now that I'm older and have actually had experience with some degree of abuse, it really sucks seeing TV deal with rape or abuse in such a poor way without thinking of the message it sends to the viewers.

 

[Robb Stark]

I haven't really spoken on this thread yet because I don't remember the scene well enough, and I didn't want to say something that came out wrong, but you brought a point that I believe should be discussed. So from memory, the sex was actually consensual, Xander was okay with it, until Faith tried to choke him, so to me, that doesn't sound like a rape, but more so Faith flipping out and trying to kill the guy she was having sex with.

Now, again, I haven't seen that episode in a long time, so I might be completely wrong, and I'm not trying to debate that it isn't a rape (like I said it might be), I'd like to hear other's opinion on the subject. Obviously I should just go re-watch the scene, but I'd just like some clarification, because from memory, I thought the sex was consensual.

Also, if it really is an AR, it's really a shame that they dealt with it that way. The last time I saw the ep was years ago, and obviously I was younger and more "innocent", and the scene didn't register as rape, so I do think they dealt with it really poorly. Now that I'm older and have actually had experience with some degree of abuse, it really sucks seeing TV deal with rape or abuse in such a poor way without thinking of the message it sends to the viewers.

It's two different scenes. The first they they sleep together consensually in "The Zeppo". That's not the scene we're referring to. After Faith kills The Mayor's deputy in the alley, the following episode (or maybe the one after, I can't recall the name) has Xander, upon finding out what's happened, going to see Faith because they slept together and he feels they have a connection. He's not going there for sex at all, but Faith accuses him of that, throws him onto the bed, mounts him and aggressively chokes him out until Angel shows up. She repeatedly says he's there for sex and that he wants it, and he repeatedly states that he doesn't and tells her to stop.

 

[Lyri]

Like [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION], it's been a long, LONG time since I watched that ep. In fact, I can't even remember what ep it is. 'Choices'? I dunno.

Anyway, from what I remember, Xander doesn't actually go looking for sex. He goes to Faith's motel room because he finds out that she killed the deputy mayor and is possibly working for The Mayor and he thinks they have a 'connection' so he'll be able to talk her down or around.

Faith then proceeds to become overtly sexually aggressive towards him, rubbing up against him, 'kinks or vanilla?' and, from what I remember, Xander becomes uncomfortable and begins to back away, telling her that this isn't what he wants. Faith then grabs him and throws him onto the bed, where she then proceeds to climb on top of him, straddling his hips and grinding down on him. She puts her hands around his throat and starts to squeeze.

This is the moment I think it crosses over into attempted murder rather than attempted rape. She only stops because Angel knocks her out with the baseball bat. I DO think it started out that way and could have progressed to rape if Faith hadn't gotten lost in the feeling of having Xander's life literally in her hands.

As for the OP, I DO think it has a lot to do with the fact that Faith is a woman and many people believe that men simply can't be raped, especially by a woman, which is just crap.

I also think the fact that Faith is a Slayer lets her get a pass. She's a Chosen warrior and I think that plays on peoples minds. She's supposed to be a champion of good, she can't be ALL bad, right? (Not my personal thoughts)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Yeah it was in Consequences, I actually dont see it as attempted rape either, she says sexually suggestive things to him, and the most overtly sexual thing is she pushes him to the bed kisses him and licks his face, but she never actually tries at all to initiate sex, she goes straight to trying to kill him.

And he actually never tells her to stop, he tries to get her to admit what they had was more then just sex, and tries to get her to stop saying it wasn't, but he never actually tells her to stop.

I just watched the scene again on Netflix to remember it, and I think the fact he doesn't say stop, could be becasue he doesn't stay stop. He's clearly scared, but he still tries to give meaning to their previous time together, Buffy literally begged Spike to stop, thats a much more powerful and haunting image to show.

Now I can still understand why people could see it as attempted rape becasue of the sexual nature, but I dont think it's ever her intention to have sex with him, it's to scare him, show him she has the power, and it quickly then becomes attempted murder.

 

[Robb Stark]

Yeah it was in Consequences, I actually dont see it as attempted rape either, she says sexually suggestive things to him, and the most overtly sexual thing is she pushes him to the bed kisses him and licks his face, but she never actually tries at all to initiate sex, she goes straight to trying to kill him.

Think about it from another perspective. Flip it and instead of Faith and Xander, let's say it was Angelus or Spike with Dawn. Keep everything that happened the same. We would totally, pretty much without question, be saying they tried to rape her.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Think about it from another perspective. Flip it and instead of Faith and Xander, let's say it was Angelus or Spike with Dawn. Keep everything that happened the same. We would totally, pretty much without question, be saying they tried to rape her.

No I still wouldn't, honestly, because there isn't any sexual advance it's straight to trying to kill.

Even the things said, Faith is saying "I could do anything to you right now" shes saying what she could do, to set her power over him, but she's not saying she is going to do it. Compare that with Spike were he's saying stuff like "you'll feel it when I'm inside you". To me it just seems clear she wasn't trying to have sex with him, she tried to scare him, then kill him, sex was never an option.

 

[Kean]

Think about it from another perspective. Flip it and instead of Faith and Xander, let's say it was Angelus or Spike with Dawn. Keep everything that happened the same. We would totally, pretty much without question, be saying they tried to rape her.

I don't know, I'm not sold on that train of thought. When I read this I immediately thought back to Halloween and Buffy weeping, lying on that table as Spike is lowering himself on top of her. There's sexual overtones but at the core of that situation you can see he's trying to kill her, not rape her.

Maybe there is a case for indecent assault with the Faith and Xander scene? I'm not sure, but it isn't the same as what happened in SR. While she is sexually aggressive with Xander he doesn't try to throw her off when they are on the bed, he lets her touch him and he kisses her back. His resistance only comes when she tries to strangle him.

To be honest, I think Faith's sleeping with Riley in Buffy's body and Darla's treatment of Angel in S2 of ATS are the closest things we have to female characters sexually assaulting male characters. In both cases the show plays it as them being into it and depicts the assault as not "counting."

 

[Tome]

Most likely because Faith was actually about to KILL him. She wasn't trying to rape him. Sexuality played a part in that scene because Faith had always been depicted as a very sexual creature. It followed the trend. Also it was probably a turn on for her, as she had been shown to desperately crave control in everything (sexuality being one), despite apparently never having any (or so she claimed in Sanctuary when arguing with Buffy on the rooftop).

On the other hand, Spike wasn't trying to kill Buffy at all. What he wanted was to *make* her love him. And the way he thought that would happen is through sex. The issue was obviously that Buffy didn't want that to happen at all. So clearly THAT case was an attempted rape, unlike Faith/Xander.

 

[VisionGirl]

This confused me, how does Xander's rape have something to do with homophobia or misogyny?

From the article I linked:

By denying that males can be sexually assaulted, male survivors are made to feel that they are alone or abnormal.
Despite the evidence of male sexual assault, rape is still predominantly viewed as a "women's issue". This may be because stereotypes cause most people to be more comfortable with the image of a woman being deprived of her power in a sexual assault than a man. The degree to which the issue of male sexual assault continues to be swept under the rug is evidenced by the fact that the annual FBI Uniform Crime Report continues to only include female victims under its definition of "forcible rape". Many hospitals are unused to looking for signs of male sexual assault, and some police departments do not even collect statistics on its frequency.

http://m.sapac.umich.edu/article/53

It's an admission to weakness, being "like a woman" as the article says. And a male admitting to being raped by a man is really difficult: here's fear of being labeled gay.

Mainly it's identification with the "weaker" sex or perceived weaker sexual orientation.

 

[Blaze]

From the article I linked:

http://m.sapac.umich.edu/article/53

It's an admission to weakness, being "like a woman" as the article says. And a male admitting to being raped by a man is really difficult: here's fear of being labeled gay.

Mainly it's identification with the "weaker" sex or perceived weaker sexual orientation.

Thanks for the answer, because of the thread's subject of AR by Faith, I didn't think you were talking about male male rape which is what got me confused about the homophobia thing. I think you are completely right, a lot of males might have issues talking about male male rape or admitting being raped. I even know some gay males that have hidden the fact that they were raped because they were scared that other people would buy the (untrue) idea that getting rape makes you gay.