Why Does Joss Do That?

[Skanky Vamp]

I just remember when Maddy and David finally got together it ruined the show, but (and I cant remember their names) the (I think she was the secretary) and Booger (from Revenge of the Nerds) got together on the same show it was fine. If the leads hook-up I think it changes the dynamic too much to rebound.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

zobothehobo agrees: EXACTLY! It's not just Joss who does that... it's a genre wide thing. Joss fans just tae it as this big huge thing because Joss talks about it.

That isn't the reason, though. On my part, at least, it's that Joss CONTINUES to do it. Over and over again, at least once per season. Other writers don't go there with the relationships in the first place, but he goes there and CONTINUOUSLY breaks them apart. By death, by someone leaving town, etc., he continuously writes his characters in some kind of relationship heartbreak. On EVERY show. Well, technically, it didn't happen with Firefly until it became a movie, but still.
It is old hat now. At first, it was shock value, it was something new and shiny to look at and go "Oooo, hey! That's pretty awesome! That kinda stuff isn't really done." But now, he does it on every show, every season, every time. I adore Joss, and that kind of stuff is fine...Once in a while. I can't think of a season of a show that he's done that he hasn't completely killed a relationship. He needs to figure out some new material, pronto, 'cuz now it isn't shocking, it isn't compelling, hell it isn't even heartbreaking; You see it coming a mile away, and rather than leave us in shock, awe, and utterly heartbroken, it fills us with something else...Something that Joss usually isn't capable of filling us with...Boredom.

 

[Icarium]

What does Joss Whedon have against "happily ever after" relationships?

True Art Is Angsty

Me thinks Joss loves this trope a bit too much...😀 This makes him quite predictable, especially when it comes to romantic relationships.

Never having a happy ending is just as disingenuous as always having one.

Exactly.

The idea that happy couples can't create drama is really silly. Almost as silly as the other pet theory of Joss - that "flawed" characters means literally having blood on their hands. You can have plenty of drama without breaking couples up and gray characters who aren't murderers. Random break-ups and turns to "the dark side" feel more like writing shortcuts than anything else.

 

[brinkster130]

Old habits die hard. It would be interesting to see Joss break his go-to end all romantic relationships story-lines.

 

[theroyalgoat]

I think it's a few different reasons. The biggest is that he's telling a story and drawing on other works that inspired. And it's usually the best that are the most tragic. There's a reason for that, I'm not sure who said it, but I remember a quote about how you never know exactly how much you love someone until they're gone.

Another reason is because in the world's that he creates are usually very dangerous and it's just not realistic at all to think that it's all going to work out. People die every day, a lot of people, and I really respect that he doesn't hold his characters above the law of life. It's almost never truely pleasent. And people die, and that's what makes life important and that's why his characters are so heroic...because they're fighting for that.

And I'm sure there's many more reasons. Oz left because they couldn't offer him more for his character so it was either stand still or move foreward.

 

[Username]

It doesn't really bother me that he ends all the great relationships, what does bother me is that he for some reason decides to destroy the best ones but keeps the worst one alive, Killow. I don't see the reasoning behind that...

 

[prophecygrrl]

I'm a little sick of it too, but definitely used to it by now. Joss is (usually! Season Eight definitely not included) the type of writer who likes to focus on the journey rather than the endgame though, isn't he? IDK...A lot of relationships have a nice run, and then they end. I've made my peace with that, but I understand wanting to have just one happy relationship in the Whedonverse.

There's a lot of comparison on this thread with shows like Grey's, Bones, Castle, etc...but considering that Joss's shows are scifi/fantasy with the characters facing immense odds of death/apocalypse in practically every episode, I don't think that's the best comparison. With such high stakes, I find it extremely unlikely that the characters will forge lasting romantic relationships. Heck, in real life it's pretty unlikely to have long lasting romantic relationships. Throw in a few apocalypses and hell-gods, and who knows?

IDK if this counts as a spoiler, but since this is a Buffy board and not a Firefly/Serenity one:

Spoiler

Do you guys count Kaylee/Simon as a happy relationship ending? Though technically, we only just saw the beginnings of it, I think we're meant to understand with all the build-up throughout Firefly/Serenity that their relationship is meant to last.

 

[theroyalgoat]

Well you also have to look at the realtionships and really think if they would honestly last?

Romantism is one thing, but realtionships in the Jossverse tend to be really meaningful and in real life how long do those relationships work out?

 

[Kean]

There's a lot of comparison on this thread with shows like Grey's, Bones, Castle, etc...but considering that Joss's shows are scifi/fantasy with the characters facing immense odds of death/apocalypse in practically every episode, I don't think that's the best comparison. With such high stakes, I find it extremely unlikely that the characters will forge lasting romantic relationships. Heck, in real life it's pretty unlikely to have long lasting romantic relationships. Throw in a few apocalypses and hell-gods, and who knows?

You definitely have a point about the Sci-fi thing but there are shows that are sci-fi and still allow couples to get the happy ending. I mean BSG, which is arguably one of the bleakest shows ever, managed to allow two of its main couples to end up together.

Even on Buffy, the things that tore Anya/Xander and Tara/Willow apart were more or less human issues.

 

[Litheran]

The new adventures of Lois and Clark/Smallville.

Obviously the writers had it a little easier because they're meant to end up together. But the truth is that watching a couple fight to keep a relationship going is much more compelling than someone pining about a relationship ending.

 

[BuffyElevated]

That isn't the reason, though. On my part, at least, it's that Joss CONTINUES to do it. Over and over again, at least once per season. Other writers don't go there with the relationships in the first place, but he goes there and CONTINUOUSLY breaks them apart. By death, by someone leaving town, etc., he continuously writes his characters in some kind of relationship heartbreak. On EVERY show. Well, technically, it didn't happen with Firefly until it became a movie, but still.
It is old hat now. At first, it was shock value, it was something new and shiny to look at and go "Oooo, hey! That's pretty awesome! That kinda stuff isn't really done." But now, he does it on every show, every season, every time. I adore Joss, and that kind of stuff is fine...Once in a while. I can't think of a season of a show that he's done that he hasn't completely killed a relationship. He needs to figure out some new material, pronto, 'cuz now it isn't shocking, it isn't compelling, hell it isn't even heartbreaking; You see it coming a mile away, and rather than leave us in shock, awe, and utterly heartbroken, it fills us with something else...Something that Joss usually isn't capable of filling us with...Boredom.

I totally, totally agree. The first couple times it happened I was heartbreaking and sad and shocking and now it's become expected. It's very tired and I'm over it.

 

[TheVoid68]

I agree. Joss has destroyed relationships far too often in his work, it's become his very own cliche. It's not interesting or shocking anymore, it's trite and predictable. Of course a couple shouldn't be 100% happy, 100% of the time, but there are more ways to introduce conflict in a relationship than breaking them up and/or killing one of the partners.

Alright Kean, who is that because I'm not a Grey's watcher.

I'm thinking about 2 new shows this season that feature No Ordinary Family & Undercovers. The latter is being cancelled, and even though I'm watching & enjoying NOF, I don't consider it the best show out there. Sometimes I have to make myself watch it LOL. It started with quite a bit of conflict between the couple, but that aspect seems to have magically disappeared

I'm thinking about current crime or action dramas, or sci-fi, and trying to come up with longterm couples, & I can't think of any. I mean, think about it: does anybody want to watch a show about their own (boring) life? LOL

Amy and Rory from Doctor Who. They've been together since their first appearances and are now married. Conflict was drawn from a pseudo-love triangle with the Doctor, Amy's commitment issues and trying to resolve the issue of settling down together .vs. travelling with the Doctor. They manage to remain interesting and happy and together at the same time, without any death or destruction of their relationship. (Granted, Rory did die at one point, but he got better).

 

[The Unspoken]

You definitely have a point about the Sci-fi thing but there are shows that are sci-fi and still allow couples to get the happy ending. I mean BSG, which is arguably one of the bleakest shows ever, managed to allow two of its main couples to end up together.

Even on Buffy, the things that tore Anya/Xander and Tara/Willow apart were more or less human issues.

Wait, am I missing something here? I thought they were torn apart by respectively a knife and a bullet.

 

[white avenger]

Wait, am I missing something here? I thought they were torn apart by respectively a knife and a bullet.

Actually, Anya was torn apart by a sword, not a knife. Tara WAS torn apart, or at least penetrated, by a bullet, but Xander and Anya were torn apart by a revenge seeking demon on their wedding day, and Willow and Tara were torn apart by a revenge seeking nerd with a poor sense of aim.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Scobro agrees: Killing Tara to turn Willow psycho? Lazy, unnecessary, offensive and overwhelmingly anti-feminist. The list goes on.

Wait, while I agree that it is lazy and in some ways unnecessary, how was it offensive and anti-feminist? Offensive because it fell into the dead/crazy lesbian cliche or something else? And I'd disagree on that front. Anti-feminist is a new argument I've heard.

As for Joss destroying couples, I agree and disagree. Sometimes it is necessary because not all great couples survive tiny problems. Something small can drive people apart. But for him to not have at least ONE happy couple is complete bonkers.

 

[Icarium]

Wait, am I missing something here? I thought they were torn apart by respectively a knife and a bullet.

I think the point was that Willow/Tara and Xander/Anya had already broken up and very conveniently got back together (sort of in the case of Xanya) just in time for Anya and Tara to get killed. I can totally see them not getting back together, had Joss not needed that to get some extra angst from their deaths. And he used this approach way back with Giles/Jenny too.

 

[BananaBuffy]

But they're still young, that's my thing. I don't know why I started this post like that but you know, I'll continue anyway. I don't believe that they would have everything perfect when they are still that young. They're confused, they have a lot going on. I believe that if their relationships were right they would have their troubles and come back to them later. Willow and Tara had to have that time apart to sort things out. They would have stayed together, I believe, if Tara hadn't been killed. I'm not sure about Xander and Anya but I really don't think they were ready for marriage or a completely serious relationship yet anyway.

Buffy, especially, is still young and figuring out what she wants. She has two guys that people root for and she loves them both. But she has to experiment, there's no time for seriousness yet. Maybe now that the other Slayers are helping out with the Slaying she might have time for something more serious and can decide or maybe find someone else.

I think Willow's probably the one that does the best. She has the potential to live in serious relationships and it's never her who breaks up with the other person. Notice how Woz, Tillow and Killow have all lasted quite a long while. So, well done to Willow.

 

[Professor Walsh]

To write about happiness and contentment is a whole lot harder than to write about pain. Just look to literature "“ how many really good poems about living happily ever after are there? Still, a happy couple works nicely in the background. (A little sidenote for the Scandinavians: Mikael Wiehes sang "Tango" synes jeg er et hederlig unntak. Det er en god tekst om trygg, rolig kjærlighet.) For Giles to have Olivia around in a not-married-for-the-rest-of-whatever sort of lifestyle could have blended in nicely. Not a core member of the cast, but a part of the fabric the stories are painted on. To kill off Tara was not a necessity, storyline-wise, it was just a way of shocking the hell out of the fans. Had Joss had the means to do so, he may have pulled that particular rabbit out of the hat in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and be done with it.

1. I am SO tired of hearing people complain about this. I hadn't realized this until I joined BB... (this is the first place of fandom I've joined) but I'm really tired of hearing people complain about it. Seriously, it's not a big deal.

Well, you've had heaps of responses by now, but I'll toss my li'l coin in as well. The thing is - by intensely avoiding the happy-ever-after mould, he's gone to far the other way. While I don't want all my stories to be like "Pride and Predjudice", that doesn't mean that all needs to be all "Wuthering Heights" either. (Gah. This sentence looks weird, and not because of the books. Can someone give me a crash course in how to make "either" look unweird in my writing?) There's a balance here between the two, and he hasn't found it yet.

One of the reasons I love the old Avengers TV series so much is that it featured two star characters of opposite sexes who worked side-by-side every day, had perfect chemistry, liked each other... but never ended up falling into bed just because of some lazy-writing notion that "that's what men and women always do."

Yeah, I hate that notion. As a woman with a lot of male friends whom I have never had the slightest intention of jumping into bed with, I'd be happy to see more portrayals of men and women who are close, intimate friends, yet do not end up as couples (happy or unhappy).

but considering that Joss's shows are scifi/fantasy with the characters facing immense odds of death/apocalypse in practically every episode, I don't think that's the best comparison. With such high stakes, I find it extremely unlikely that the characters will forge lasting romantic relationships. Heck, in real life it's pretty unlikely to have long lasting romantic relationships. Throw in a few apocalypses and hell-gods, and who knows?

Unlikely, yes, but still: Some couples pull through. If Joss wants his shows to have real-life relevance, it wouldn't hurt to show us that some couples actually manage to work through their problems and come out stronger for it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

What does Joss Whedon have against "happily ever after" relationships? Every time some couple pairs up, you just know that, one way or another, their love affair is doomed to failure at best, tragedy at the worst. Buffy, Willow, Xander, and Giles, all do the "love 'em and get left" thing at least a couple of times throughout the series at least a couple of times throughout the series and will most likely continue to do the same thing for as long as the series lasts. So, what do you personally think Joss' problem with lasting relationships is?

Personally, I think that Joss knows how to tell a good story, and part of making that happen is tragedy. No one wants to watch a couple be happy for too long - it gets boring. Also, Joss is attempting to replicate life in a way. Even though his shows are fantastical, his characters are very human. Let's face it, there aren't always happy ever afters for everyone. In fact, most people aren't lucky enough to ever find that kind of love.

Personally, I think that Joss has taken a page out of Edgar Allen Poe's book. Poe believed that the greatest love story was the story of lost love, preferably when death was involved. Apparently Joss feels the same way.

Well, lost love surely makes for a more compelling story then hugs and puppies. 😉

 

[white avenger]

Well, lost love surely makes for a more compelling story then hugs and puppies. 😉

Certainly it does, to a certain extent, but, still, a FEW hugs and puppies once in awhile would be a nice change, just to preserve the illusion that there is, at least occasionally, such a thing as a happy ending, even in the Buffyverse.