Question Why doesn't Spuffy work for you?

[Gideon]

I've tried to see it, to accept it with an open mind. I think they have an interesting relationship and I think there were touching moments, but it was mostly on Spike's end. I've seen nothing -- absolutely nothing -- that tells me that Buffy was in love with Spike.

I've went back and read some pretty good Spuffy fics, so I am making an attempt, but at the end of the day, in my own opinion, I think the Spuffy mentality is one of wishful thinking.

Which is great! And certainly makes room for some awesome storytelling, speculation, and possibilities. But canon-wise, I think Angel is it for her.

 

[slayerpower]

I liked Spike and Buffy in s5. Spike's love for Buffy was very sweet (aside from Spike chaining up Buffy). But in s6, their relationship became violent. I didn't like that. My favorite tv couples have a romantic relationship (like Bangel).

 

[Gideon]

Xaphania, I apologize for not being able to quote your response (I don't know how this forum works), hence me using another post. 🙂

By my reckoning, the examples you listed number to three, which isn't an impressive figure. And, really, the only one worthwhile is the one where Buffy tells Spike that she loves him.

But let's take a look at that one: when she tells him that, he's sacrificing himself to stop the First's army. Spike's own response is telling: "No you don't [love me]."

She doesn't dispute this; she runs. As someone who is very familiar with Spike's character, you should understand that perhaps better than anyone minus Xander and Angelus, Spike is extremely insightful; it's how he defeated two Slayers in combat and how he manipulated the gang in "The Yoko Factor."

When it comes to Buffy, the ever insightful Spike has no faith that she loves him. Angel sees it too, and exploited that in "Destiny."

So one can chalk it up to Buffy telling him what she knew he wanted to hear, knowing there was never going to be another chance to make him happy.

As for the rest: Buffy doing whatever she could to rescue him from the First isn't a sign that she's in love with him. It's a sign that she cares for him greatly, which I've never disputed. But being loving someone and being in love with someone are two different things; Buffy has gone to the ends of the Earth for each and every one of her friends. That doesn't mean she's in love with Giles or Xander.

And her telling him that she believes him doesn't really mean anything other than that Buffy cares for Spike.

I'm not sure if it was your intent to compare her relationship with Spike to her relationship with Angel, but if you're keen on tabulating the moments of love between her and them, Angel wins by a cosmic landslide.

I mean no disrespect by the way. I don't wish to encourage the ire of Spuffy fans. I just like discussing it. 🙂

 

[xaphania]

Well, as you said - those were just three examples, I didn't want to overload the rep box with all the other (and there are a lot) moments. I'm not going to say anything else, I'll just get annoyed lol. But I'm a Spuffy fan, I believe Spike loved Buffy, Buffy loved Spike and nothing's gonna change that. I should stay away from these threads, heh. *hurries back to Spuffy corner of LJ-land*

 

[Gideon]

Well, as you said - those were just three examples, I didn't want to overload the rep box with all the other (and there are a lot) moments. I'm not going to say anything else, I'll just get annoyed lol. But I'm a Spuffy fan, I believe Spike loved Buffy, Buffy loved Spike and nothing's gonna change that. I should stay away from these threads, heh. *hurries back to Spuffy corner of LJ-land*

Oh, I don't think you'll get annoyed. I'm trying to be as open minded as possible. I'll give Spuffy its due, I've started reading the fanfiction, and I find some of the moments between them to be incredibly sweet.

I suppose at the end of the day, from what I've read, people on both sides have tried to make it a competition between him and Angel. And that's when I ultimately have to pick a side: Buffy's own actions reflect that even at the height of her relationship with Spike, Angel has always had a monumental place in her heart.

That's a deeper love than she shows for Spike.

But I appreciate the feedback. 🙂

 

[TheChosenTwo]

I actually kinda liked Spuffy in s7. HATED them in s6, but I started to like them later. The thing I don't like about Spuffy is how it changed Spike. I'm more a fan of evil, soulless Spike.

 

[Washburne]

The thing I don't like about Spuffy is how it changed Spike. I'm more a fan of evil, soulless Spike.

I think a lot of people like evil Spike better. Some of his softer sides is nice and all but as being entertained goes evil Spike is much better.

 

[ubi4soft]

Ah yes. Now that scene comes to mind. Thanks Blondie. But

Spoiler

to say that Spike forced them to perform the curse seems a bit wrong right?

I was joking, sorry for that. Your memory is fine

 

[Tranquillity]

Gideon said:

I've tried to see it, to accept it with an open mind. I think they have an interesting relationship and I think there were touching moments, but it was mostly on Spike's end. I've seen nothing -- absolutely nothing -- that tells me that Buffy was in love with Spike

I came across this the other day, thought it might help your on-going quest to understand spuffy and the people who love it:

Molly May -

 

[Gideon]

Gideon said:


I came across this the other day, thought it might help your on-going quest to understand spuffy and the people who love it:

Molly May -

Thank you very much. I'm on the phone with my girlfriend, but I will give my review later. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

When I saw this development in the series, I was actually disgusted that this was happening. I was a lot younger and really didn't like seeing anyone but Angel/Buffy together; and 5/6 years down the line, I still don't really! lol

Now I've seen it all again recently and watched it with an older and more mature view, I still don't really like it. I can't agree with Kean more. In all honesty my first thought was, 'really Joss? You're going to go there again?' and that kind of annoyed me. I do appreciate their relationship in Season 7 and the way in which they support each other BUT I cannot get past some of the things Spike did; obviously the main one being Seeing Red. The fact that Buffy could even consider looking at him again, let alone building a friendship with him, really does make me quite angry. I could actually slap her for it. Why would you?!

And, I'm sorry, but I don't think there was any love, in any part of the relationship, at any time. Maybe on Spike's part in Season 7, but I do not, and will never think, that Buffy loved him. Ever.

And Kean, I agree with you completely about Season 6 Spuffy and their sexual relationship, so I'm not going to try and say the same thing in a different way!

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

It is not pretty. It's ruff, and when I see them I'm scared about what's going to happen. Is he going to hurt her? I feel to much his love for her but to little her love for him. So I see obsession. Most of the time I see friendship, he is always there when she is in trouble. Or when she is sad. When I see Buffy and Angel they give me faith that true love is still somewhere 🙂

 

[skooks]

Seeing Red is especially hard because I really feel Buffy should have stalked him for what he tried to do. The more I look back on Spike's obsession with Buffy and how it progressed over season 5 and 6 I can't help but feel that he forced himself on her long before the attempted rape in Seeing Red. He hounded her until she gave in to him, for months. I just can't support that, I can't see the good in the pairing, I see no love.

This really sums it up for me. I'm not asking that TV gives me Disney-style romances, but I don't want to see a relationship as ugly as this. It's not sexy or romantic or fun. It's disgusting. I don't find entertainment in that.

 

[prophecygirl17]

For me its not so much that Spuffy doesn't work its just that Bangel worked so well!

 

[Eleftheria]

i just look at how this "relationship" started...it was because Buffy felt dead inside,she couldn't confide in her friends about being in Heaven and pulled out and she wanted to feel sth...she chose Spike cause she didn't care about what he was thinking.She never felt love for him before 6th season...it was ,the way i see it,a violent,physical,sexual relationship and everytime they have sex Buffy hates herself and feels disgusted,not to mention his rape attempt...i am not saying they can't be friends cause Buffy and Spike have a deeper level of communication...but even when Buffy told Spike that she loved him,he didn't believe her...because he has a soul now and he understands that love is sth really big

I don't know why Joss wanted us to see Buffy so dark,so depressed and doing things which humiliate her...self hatred is not for Buffy...
there is no love,or romance there is only violence...and that bothers me...it makes me also feel depressed

When i see her with Angel i see no exploiting...no violence...i see love just by eye contact,just by holding hands...i could say more but i can't...this post will get far too long!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Because they have to much sex.

Part of the Spuffy relationship is to show how changed Buffy has become in her sexual comfort level. With Angel, she's a shy, uncertain virgin. With Parker, she's enthusiatic and probably not skilled, but emotionally vulnerable to his line of crap. He says she has stamina. Not much of a compliment.

With Riley, she's starting to come into her own. We never get the sense though that Riley is very good at satisfying her or at all adventurous. We never see Buffy give the Enormous Hall Monitor a blow job. It's nothing but straight up sex, Riley on top as far as I remember. She comments once that having sex with him was "relaxing." She leaves bed to go kill vampires, which seems to be more satisfying to her than he was. The only time he cuts it is when they're trapped in the haunted frat house. Lame. In fact, I had a head slap moment the other day. Riley does not know how to dance! The first time he tries to approach her on a romantic basis, he states that he doesn't dance. Given Spike's statements to Buffy re "dancing" I think we can conclude that Riley is a flop in the sack. (Are his trips to the vamp side of town really a metaphor for trying to sharpen up those manly sexual skills?)

With Spike, Buffy is finding out what she really wants, really likes, really needs, physically. She can explore the dark sexual side with a partner who she doesn't have to worry every moment about hurting. The real problem is that Buffy doesn't want to admit that she likes kinky sex and that she is "letting him do those things to me." But she does like those things - they have sex with fighting, sex in abandoned buildings, sex on the floor, sex after tearing up Spike's crypt, almost phone sex, (in her dream) sex with Buffy on top and with Spike handcuffed, sex with spatulas, sex in the kitchen, sex in the bed, naked sex, clothed sex, sex in public in the alley at her job, sex in public again outside in front of her house and apparently on the ground, sex when they're mad at each other and sex when they're happy - sex sex and more sex until Buffy can't sit down without making a face of pain.

So...Spuffy doesn't work for you because Buffy wanted Spike and enjoyed sleeping with him?

You did a great job describing Buffy's sexual evolution with her various partners, but you didn't really articulate why Spuffy doesn't work for you. Why should it bother you that Spike gives her what she needs? The closest I see to an answer to this in your last line:

And, it's Spike and only Spike (God's gift) who gives Buffy this.

I wish you would elaborate.

Who would you have liked to see as giving Buffy "this"?

Also, though, as Kean mentioned way earlier in this thread; sex was not all Spuffy was. There was friendship, too. In the end, that's what it was all about.

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

I don't know why Joss wanted us to see Buffy so dark,so depressed and doing things which humiliate her...self hatred is not for Buffy...

Why? Because seeing our heroes fall allows us to see them as also human. This way we can relate to them. Only when we fall can we pic ourselves back up, right? Season 6 was, according to Joss, about fighting the "Big Bad" that is life. Real life is full of people making bad calls. Buffy made one when she chose to initiate a sexual relationship with a soulless vampire, which was of course, sopposed to represent many other issues. We all learn from our mistakes. We needed to see Buffy in this dark, unhappy place. It was nessesary for the evolution of her character.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Oh, about Buffy's sex life with Spike. You know I still cover my eyes when that scenes are on. I don't think Buffy really enjoyed it. She just needed it because in that few minutes she didn't thought about anything else. I don't like to see Buffy in situvation like that. When she first made love with Angel it was made beautiful, and when she first slept with Riley it was nice. I know she is not the same girl in season 6 and in season 2, but that's just not like Buffy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I don't think Buffy really enjoyed it.

Hmm. It's pretty obvious she did. I'm curious how you came to this conclusion.

Spike in 'As You Were', "You know what I am. You come to me all the same."

Buffy was sleeping with Spike on a regular basis for about four months. Why would she keep coming back to him if she didn't enjoy it? Doesn't seem like Buffy.

She just needed it because in that few minutes she didn't think about anything else...but that's just not like Buffy.

I get your point - but the whole point was that it was like Buffy. She did it. That's like saying it "wasn't like Xander" to leave Anya at the altar. It was her making that decision. Spike didn't force her to do anything. She initiated their sexual relationship (remember 'Smashed'?).

I don't believe that Buffy was merely using Spike to simply "forget" her problems as you put it. There are other ways to temporarily escape your problems without resorting to banging your mortal enemy. See what I mean? I do understand that the character's actions were exaggerated for dramatic purposes, but come on. She used Spike for sex because she wanted him. Plain and simple. And it was easy. And she was lonely.
It's important to note that Buffy didn't initate anything with Spike until she found out he could physically hurt her. There was something self-destructive going on there inside of her. Like Spike says later in S7, she hated herself and took it out on him.

What scared her was how she allowed herself to be completely taken over by him. She became lost in him. He was her refuge from her grim reality. It was self-indulgent escapism yes, but one of the reasons she was so upset with herself was because she liked what he did to her - and not only because she was using him and didn't love him.

Making excuses for her behavior with Spike is just in my opinion, glossing over what actually happened. Buffy changed. She discovered what she liked and what she wanted with Spike. That's the truth, no matter what you believe. In 'Wrecked', after Buffy tells Spike their night together was a mistake, Spike corrects her; “It was a bloody revelation.”

He was right.

I respect your opinion, but you can't ignore the facts.

 

[Paramour]

I don't know why Joss wanted us to see Buffy so dark,so depressed and doing things which humiliate her...self hatred is not for Buffy...
there is no love,or romance there is only violence...and that bothers me...it makes me also feel depressed

Cause that's life and it's a lot more relatable than everyone being perfectly content all the time. A lot of people go through dark periods in their life where they're lost and depressed and do things they would of never imagined themselves capable of doing. On the contrary, I think self hatred is completely for Buffy, along with her conflicting confidence and self assurance. As Holden points out in Conversations With Dead People - she has a superiority complex and an inferiority complex as a result. It's what makes her character so interesting and deep. She struggles daily to cope with the decisions she's had to make and the pressure of staying strong and standing by those decisions despite wondering of what she's doing is right. She doesn't feel worthy of the power she possesses and it brings out conflicting emotions that often cloud her judgement.

Love isn't always romantic. It's complicated, painful, messy, and sometimes violent. That's what the Spike & Buffy relationship explored. It wasn't always romantic but it was always passionate, good or bad. It's not for everyone, but I think Buffy came out stronger in the end cause of it.

And on the topic of whether she loved him or not, I believe wholeheartedly that she did. Just cause it didn't start out that way doesn't mean it didn't end there. In Touched, when she asked him to hold her while she slept, it showed that she had finally come to completely trust him, and isn't trust the basis of true love? She trusted Xander and Giles too, but I don't recall her ever asking them to cuddle up in bed with her. She needed his comfort and that night with him gave her the strength she needed to face the biggest challenge of her life. His words, his faith and devotion, and his embrace are what pulled her through the pain of being abandoned by every single person she trusted. He stood by her unconditionally and I think that's when she finally realized her love for him. When she holds his hand, looks in his eyes, and says "I love you" without much concern for the chaos around them, I don't see how anyone can deny her sincerity. She cared for and respected him and I don't think she would honor his death with a lie just cause she thought it's what he wanted to hear.

 

[ubi4soft]

So...Spuffy doesn't work for you because Buffy wanted Spike and enjoyed sleeping with him?

I wish you would elaborate.

Spuffy S6 doesn't work for me. I know it's essential to understand Buffy in S6 but I can't. Between "As We Were" and "Entropy" I see Buffy as a hypocrite, specifically between "Tell me you love" and "I think it is (love) For you."

And I'll stop here. Not saying anything else.