Why is Willow more accountable for not being accountable?

[Black Eye Guy]

There seems to be a lot of negativity for Willow lately, which I can understand considering how she's gone from quiet to confident to arrogant.

But I've seen it mentioned time and again that one of the main reasons was there was no accountability for killing Warren. And Im wondering why people care that she be held accountable for something when no one is held accountable for anything?

The only person thats actually held accountable for anything is Faith, who, from reading the comics, I'm beginning to think is also the most morally superior character in the buffyverse at the moment. She is the most level headed character in any of the comics at the moment, she's the most responsible and others are looking to her for help a lot.

Of the rest of them though, Angel and Spike have killed people. For Angel thats separate, but then sould Angel does a lot of bad stuff like Killing Drogyn or making decisions for other people. Spikes whole soul thing is blurry and he doesn't seem to give to much weight to his past crimes. (Although with their whole soul/no-soul thing thats kinda different)
Andrew killed Jonathon, plus all the crime in season 6.
Anya killed people (although there is a lot of outrage over her)
Xander is responsible for 3 (more?) deaths when he summoned Sweet in OMWF, and hiding it from people while it continued on.
Giles doesn't mind killing the innocent to stop the bad (Ben)
Oz killed Veruca, cuz she was bad.
Faith was a bad guy, killing at least one innocent person (the professor, and it's 2 if you include the Mayors aide guy - his innocence is questionable.)
Buffy killed Ted without knowing he was a robot, She killed the knights of byzantium in self defense, she tried to kill the scoobies while not in her right mind in season 6, she also went out intending to Kill Faith put her in a coma, she's also robbed banks.
Cordelia said she had no objection to Angel killing Holtz
Gunn and Fred don't mind killing a human bad guy (professor that sent Fred to Pylea)
Wesley will steal your baby if its in a prophecy, also shot his dad without knowing it was a robot, and killed Knox because he was a bad guy.
Lorne killed Lindsey because he was a bad guy.

I mean thats 6 characters responsible for innocent deaths (excluding Buffys accidental robot murder) and another 5 that killed bad guys

The only people held accountable are Angel (continuously fighting for redemption) and Faith (Actually went to prison).

Yet the only ones people really question not being held responsible are Willow and Anya, when all the scoobies have blood on their hands.
Not to mention Warren was a bad guy.

 

[Robb Stark]

Because in virtually every one of the examples you outlined there are extenuating circumstances.

BTVS has plenty of death in it, character-caused death, and it isn't always presented as "bad". There is a clear precedent in the series of killing being acceptable under extreme circumstances. The Knights of Byzantium very much fell under that circumstance and Ted was an accident with Buffy. As you said, Angel and Faith are very much under the microscope for the things they've done, and with Angel, I'm thinking mostly of the lawyers here, his actions are more understandable given the context. Veruca was literally trying to kill Willow when Oz ended her, and even that's cast in a shade of grey because Oz was a werewolf at the time. Anya has been pretty closely examined over the last few weeks on here, even if none of the characters seem to care about what she did. Holtz is on a freaking rampage when Cordy says that. Wes thinks he's saving Connor's life, and shot his Dad because he was about to murder Fred. Gunn and Fred I don't agree with what they did, at all, but their situation is FAR from black and white. Giles was literally killing Ben to stop a hell-god from invading Earth again. Wood often gets called to task for how he handled Spike. And by Angel S5 I would absolutely say that Spike has the weight of what he did without a soul on him.

Then there's Willow, who prior to the recent threads almost never gets called to the carpet for the things she's done. She spends an episode or two...um..."getting past" what happened at the end of S6, and seems more worried about what her friends will think of her then what she's actually done. She almost immediately starts using magic again, even though she's proven numerous times that she can not control it, consequences be damned. She's told, time and again by people she loves and who love her, that she's moving too fast, that she can't deal with what she's messing with, and she doesn't care. She does it anyway.

I don't think of Willow as a "villain". Not at all. She's proven many times over that somewhere, she wants to do the right thing. But her selfishness and arrogance trump that, and people pay the price because of it. She almost ended the freaking world, and by the next season almost no one seems to care because, for now, they've got their sweet ol' Will back.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I believe that the fact that she would even have a remote desire to use magic again, let alone actually use it as frequently as she does, speaks volumes. After all the pain and incredible danger she's been the cause of, she goes back and just picks it up again? That says it all.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION], Great post! I very much agree! Yes Willow has flaws and some of the things she did were awful, but by far she gets the most smack about it.

It's interesting, I remember a few years ago everyone was loving on Willow and hating on Xander, now it seems to be the opposite. Anyway, it's fine if you hate Willow, but I dislike that people say how awful of a person she is and yet they have no problem with Giles killing Ben, or Anya becoming a vengeance demon after Hell's Bell knowing that taking the job back would imply that she would have to hurt people.

Even in Buffy/Spike "relationship" from s6, I hear people saying all the time how Spike was awfully abusive to Buffy (which he was) and yet people seem to "forget" that Buffy was equally abusive in the relationship (talking post-rape scene) but it was fine because Spike wasn't a man. I find sometimes people gratify one's action, or at least chose to ignore them and yet, makes it seems like another character's action are despicable, when really both character's actions are on the same level of awfulness.

I guess what bothers me is when people are being subjective to only one character and they don't apply the logic to other characters. At least if you're gonna use your opinion use it on every character, not just with the ones that you dislike. No matter how arrogant Willow can be, she's not worst than some other characters, which was well shown in your post!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Because in virtually every one of the examples you outlined there are extenuating circumstances.

BTVS has plenty of death in it, character-caused death, and it isn't always presented as "bad". There is a clear precedent in the series of killing being acceptable under extreme circumstances. The Knights of Byzantium very much fell under that circumstance and Ted was an accident with Buffy. As you said, Angel and Faith are very much under the microscope for the things they've done, and with Angel, I'm thinking mostly of the lawyers here, his actions are more understandable given the context. Veruca was literally trying to kill Willow when Oz ended her, and even that's cast in a shade of grey because Oz was a werewolf at the time. Anya has been pretty closely examined over the last few weeks on here, even if none of the characters seem to care about what she did. Holtz is on a freaking rampage when Cordy says that. Wes thinks he's saving Connor's life, and shot his Dad because he was about to murder Fred. Gunn and Fred I don't agree with what they did, at all, but their situation is FAR from black and white. Giles was literally killing Ben to stop a hell-god from invading Earth again. Wood often gets called to task for how he handled Spike. And by Angel S5 I would absolutely say that Spike has the weight of what he did without a soul on him.

I forgot about the lawyers! And I'd agree we see a strain on Spike more so in Angel, but in Buffy there's very little given for Spike feeling bad about what he did - Although don't get me wrong Spike gets his fair share of scrutiny (a lot from me!) because of the blur between souled and unsouled Spike.

But I guess I don't get why all those excuses matter but the excuse that Warren tried to Kill Buffy and did kill Tara doesn't matter? There's no difference between Willow killing Warren and having no accountability and Oz killing Veruca, Wes killing Knox, Fred and Gunn for killing the prof or Even Giles for killing Bed, there's nothing to say, Warren wouldn't try again, exact same situation as Ben. In fact he does come back in the comics and tries to kill them.

Actually would saying Willow didn't actually kill Warren matter? Technically he lived, and was killed a year later by Buffy?? I've never seen anyone use that in a Willow/Warren discussion, lol (probably cuz it's stupid, but it is fact)

Then there's Willow, who prior to the recent threads almost never gets called to the carpet for the things she's done. She spends an episode or two...um..."getting past" what happened at the end of S6, and seems more worried about what her friends will think of her then what she's actually done. She almost immediately starts using magic again, even though she's proven numerous times that she can not control it, consequences be damned. She's told, time and again by people she loves and who love her, that she's moving too fast, that she can't deal with what she's messing with, and she doesn't care. She does it anyway.

It was two episodes for us, but it was at least 4 months in England training everyday for Willow between May and September. She also doesn't want to do magic, she begs Giles to take it out of her, but he tells her its part of her and not using it could have worse implications.
And she's the one that wants to take her magic slow, its Buffy that forces her to use magic, firstly to make a barrier to hold the Turok-Han, then again to activate the slayers, neither of which Willow wanted to do, but she was their strongest weapon and had a responsibility to do it.

I don't think of Willow as a "villain". Not at all. She's proven many times over that somewhere, she wants to do the right thing. But her selfishness and arrogance trump that, and people pay the price because of it. She almost ended the freaking world, and by the next season almost no one seems to care because, for now, they've got their sweet ol' Will back.

Again other characters do the same, Xander didn't tell Buffy about Willow trying to soul spell on Angel out of selfishness, and except one throw away line in season 7 there was no ramifications. Buffys arrogance was all over the place in season 7 till she was knocked way down by the guys, then had her confidence (not arrogance) restored by Spike. Xander is responsible for OMWF.

 

[brinkster130]

I think it is an attitude thing more so than her needing to be held accountable. Willow gets so power hungry that it makes her extremely selfish and dangerous but she doesn't seem to care a whole lot. Her addiction to magic made her almost destroy the world yet she continues to immerse herself in that world with the attitude that she can somehow keep herself from going dark again.

In s8 she couln't care less about Buffy having to kill her in TOYL when she had gone dark again. In s9 she is willing to help Angel resurrect Giles if he helps her get magic back; even after the debacle that was resurrecting Buffy. Its almost like she hasn't learned anything from her mistakes...or simply doesn't care.

 

[Robb Stark]

But I guess I don't get why all those excuses matter but the excuse that Warren tried to Kill Buffy and did kill Tara doesn't matter? There's no difference between Willow killing Warren and having no accountability and Oz killing Veruca, Wes killing Knox, Fred and Gunn for killing the prof or Even Giles for killing Bed, there's nothing to say, Warren wouldn't try again, exact same situation as Ben. In fact he does come back in the comics and tries to kill them.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying (well, not about Oz or Giles, I think those were very different). I don't remember the specifics of Knox's death, just that he was working with Illyria to restore her army at the time of his death and that Wes shooting him went against a speech Angel had made. I could be totally wrong there though 😛.

I suppose even with how much I detest Warren, the fact that he's literally chained up, begging for mercy and is not an immediate threat, means something to me. And Willow executes him anyway, because she can. She's angry, certainly, but she's not lost control of herself by this point, she's still semi-working with Buffy, she listens to Warren beg for his life and then kills him. Warren would have gone to prison for life for what he did. The police arrived with the paramedics. He would never have gotten out. Killing him accomplished nothing but making Willow indulge in her vengeance-kick.

And let's be clear. She doesn't just kill him. She flays him. That's a medieval practice that is, literally, the single most painful thing you can do to another person. More than cutting of a limb. People go insane from that kind of pain.

Up to this point, we've left out Jonathon and Andrew so far too. She tries to murder them as well, before Buffy stops her. They weren't even remotely involved in Tara's death. That's just cold-blooded murder on Willow's part.

Actually would saying Willow didn't actually kill Warren matter? Technically he lived, and was killed a year later by Buffy?? I've never seen anyone use that in a Willow/Warren discussion, lol (probably cuz it's stupid, but it is fact)

I don't think so. You don't get morality points because you're bad at murder, you know?

It was two episodes for us, but it was at least 4 months in England training everyday for Willow between May and September. She also doesn't want to do magic, she begs Giles to take it out of her, but he tells her its part of her and not using it could have worse implications.
And she's the one that wants to take her magic slow, its Buffy that forces her to use magic, firstly to make a barrier to hold the Turok-Han, then again to activate the slayers, neither of which Willow wanted to do, but she was their strongest weapon and had a responsibility to do it.

Maybe it's just a writing flaw, but I simply don't buy that excuse by Giles. And why would Willow even want to do it again? Magic has been the source of just about all her problems for quite a while. It's a choice to do it or not do it. There are instances, like with the Turok-Han, where it's grey, and I accept that, but by S8 that's not the issue at all. She's just doing it because she wants to. To me, she never gets to earn that back after what's happened.

And lets not forget, Buffy tells her about visiting Frey in the future, where she's gone dark again. Willow pays that almost zero mind after the "Retreat" arc. I mean, what does that say?

Again other characters do the same, Xander didn't tell Buffy about Willow trying to soul spell on Angel out of selfishness, and except one throw away line in season 7 there was no ramifications. Buffys arrogance was all over the place in season 7 till she was knocked way down by the guys, then had her confidence (not arrogance) restored by Spike. Xander is responsible for OMWF.

I've been very critical of Xander for that. It's his lowest moment of the series. I don't agree on Buffy, but that's a VERY long conversation we can have in another thread. Xander in OMWF? Yeah, that was weird 😛. So weird. Maybe it's because it's SO out of place, and that episode is generally beloved by the fanbase? I really don't have an answer for you, to be honest.

I think it is an attitude thing more so than her needing to be held accountable. Willow gets so power hungry that it makes her extremely selfish and dangerous but she doesn't seem to care a whole lot. Her addiction to magic made her almost destroy the world yet she continues to immerse herself in that world with the attitude that she can somehow keep herself from going dark again.

In s8 she couln't care less about Buffy having to kill her in TOYL when she had gone dark again. In s9 she is willing to help Angel resurrect Giles if he helps her get magic back; even after the debacle that was resurrecting Buffy. Its almost like she hasn't learned anything from her mistakes...or simply doesn't care.

This illustrates what I was trying to say perfectly.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

And Im wondering why people care that she be held accountable for something when no one is held accountable for anything?

Because people don't understand Willow. They think she's like Spike, Angel or even Buffy, they expect brooding, pangs of conscience and a redemption arc. No, that is not going to happen because Willow does not give a shit. She's a remorseless creature, guilt-free, it's my favorite thing about her. In other words, Willow is a sociopath.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]


Because people don't understand Willow. They think she's like Spike, Angel or even Buffy, they expect brooding, pangs of conscience and a redemption arc. No, that is not going to happen because Willow does not give a shit. She's a remorseless creature, guilt-free, it's my favorite thing about her. In other words, Willow is a sociopath.

Interesting, but I don't see her showing any less guilt then any of the other characters that have killed except Angel and Faith.

I do agree to a certain extent about the remorselessness though, and I think if I were in Willows shows and the person I killed was Warren having done what he'd done, I wouldn't care either.

 

[Kean]

Because Willow is touted as this sweet, lovely, courageous and valiant woman when in reality she is manipulative bitca that will literally do anything to get what she wants. She she has no respect for humanity, not even the laws of nature. She will do what she wants with both to achieve what she personally desires. I honestly think Willow is a vile individual. The fact that we are supposed to see her as a hero of sorts is what really turns me off.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I think it is an attitude thing more so than her needing to be held accountable. Willow gets so power hungry that it makes her extremely selfish and dangerous but she doesn't seem to care a whole lot. Her addiction to magic made her almost destroy the world yet she continues to immerse herself in that world with the attitude that she can somehow keep herself from going dark again.

In s8 she couln't care less about Buffy having to kill her in TOYL when she had gone dark again. In s9 she is willing to help Angel resurrect Giles if he helps her get magic back; even after the debacle that was resurrecting Buffy. Its almost like she hasn't learned anything from her mistakes...or simply doesn't care.

Agreed. Also, in S9 Willow says that even knowing Buffy was in Heaven, she STILL would have resurrected her.

For me, it's the fact that Willow refuses to acknowledge that she's ever done anything wrong, yet plays holier-than-thou to every other character when they screw up - even when it's done for a good reason (like severing the link to magic in Buffy's case in S9).

 

[Icarium]

Because Willow is touted as this sweet, lovely, courageous and valiant woman when in reality she is manipulative bitca that will literally do anything to get what she wants. She she has no respect for humanity, not even the laws of nature. She will do what she wants with both to achieve what she personally desires.

Yet, for like half of the show she possesses basically godlike power and hasn't used it to do things I (or many other people who aren't particularly evil) would be really tempted to do with it like get filthy rich, sleep with all of the Victoria's secret models or anybody she happens to find sexy, make her friends respect her more through brute force, etc. Basicalyl when you have all that power I reckon it's tough not to pull a Jonathan or worse.

Willow's character became a disgraceful joke in S6, don't get me wrong. But she shows an amazing amount of restraint considering her level of power...most of the time, so I don't see how people can say she constantly lives along the lines "want, take, have" or something like that. If she did she would be sacrificing innocent people to bring back Tara or something like that.

 

[Robb Stark]

Yet, for like half of the show she possesses basically godlike power and hasn't used it to do things I (or many other people who aren't particularly evil) would be really tempted to do with it like get filthy rich, sleep with all of the Victoria's secret models or anybody she happens to find sexy, make her friends respect her more through brute force, etc. Basicalyl when you have all that power I reckon it's tough not to pull a Jonathan or worse.

Willow's character became a disgraceful joke in S6, don't get me wrong. But she shows an amazing amount of restraint considering her level of power...most of the time, so I don't see how people can say she constantly lives along the lines "want, take, have" or something like that. If she did she would be sacrificing innocent people to bring back Tara or something like that.

To quote the great Uncle Ben:

"With great power comes great responsibility."

If you choose to access tremendous power, then you have a duty to handle it responsibly.

 

[Kean]

Yet, for like half of the show she possesses basically godlike power and hasn't used it to do things I (or many other people who aren't particularly evil) would be really tempted to do with it like get filthy rich, sleep with all of the Victoria's secret models or anybody she happens to find sexy, make her friends respect her more through brute force, etc. Basicalyl when you have all that power I reckon it's tough not to pull a Jonathan or worse.

She does other things, like encouraging Dawn to raise her mother from the dead, actually raising Buffy from the dead, gets annoyed when Buffy isn't thanking her for ripping her from Heaven, would do that again despite the pain and trauma it caused her friend, purposely and selfishly molests her girlfriend's mind so she won't be mad at her anymore, flays a man (even a shit like Warren counts) with no remorse or consequences, nearly kills her mentor and best friend, tries to end the world because she couldn't handle her grief as if she was the first person to lose the love of their life... it goes on.

I know Willow is a favourite of yours but she isn't one of mine so I find no silver lining to any of this stuff. Pretty much every character in the shows is shown to be pretty crappy but most are reprimanded in some way, either by their own admission or by their friends. This never happens with Willow.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I don't defend the things that Willow has done. (Though I am ok with the fact that she killed Warren.) I very much agree that she should be held accountable, and that the show does not sufficiently deal with this issue. I never connected very much to Willow and though I adore her in the early seasons, she is not my absolute favorite character.

But I really believe, (and I've voiced this theory in other threads but want to reiterate it here) that Willow's extreme downward personality plunge was very much due to the role she had to undertake, (ie wielding the forces of darkness in order to protect virtually everyone); it was very much a hazard of her duty.

I think the verse makes it quite clear that (as is the case with soullessness) a person who has been taken over by the dark forces which they must essentially live and breathe in order to successfully use them, is often left without the most airtight grasp of morality and often conflates self service with the protection of others.

Aside from the highly addictive properties of magic, we know that the overuse of spells can actually alter one's personality and interfere with his/her sense of right and wrong. I submit to you that Willow, before she was called upon by the group to defend them using magic, did not exhibit classically sociopathic traits and absolutely would not have done half of the things that she did beginning in season 5.

Others have cited early season behavior as evidence that she was always the same person and I have to say that I disagree. Wanting a partner who shares her interests/opinions, (um, who doesn't??), attempting to prevent herself from cheating by controlling her feelings for Xander and vice versa (if you could do magic and were 16 years old would you not do the same? Don't forget that Xander does a love spell as well and we're not citing that as evidence that he was sociopathic), and attempting another spell to control her love life after losing Oz and seeking some control in her life, (I concur that this one pushes the envelope but again I wonder how many 18 year olds would have done this had they the power, and then not necessarily have gone on to want to destroy the world).

I think too much was expected of Willow, via a very dangerous medium, known to ruin one's center of morality.

I am reminded of this sentiment: "what have you done with what you have?" (or what you have been given?) This assumes, of course, that one is not judging the ACTS of the person in question in the same way; actions are absolute after all. The purpose is to consider the circumstances surrounding the individual when attempting to judge him/her as a person separate from action. Fighting one's nature to do only bad things when one is compelled to do them (never mind the motivation) is quite worth some recognition. It reminds me of the soulless Spike of late season 5 and season 6 who begins to develop a basic understanding of what is right and wrong, (even clearly reacting appropriately to his own abhorrent acts).

Willow's path is quite similar in that regard: as [MENTION=8821]Icarium[/MENTION] said:

Yet, for like half of the show she possesses basically godlike power and hasn't used it to do things I (or many other people who aren't particularly evil) would be really tempted to do with it like get filthy rich, sleep with all of the Victoria's secret models or anybody she happens to find sexy, make her friends respect her more through brute force, etc. Basicalyl when you have all that power I reckon it's tough not to pull a Jonathan or worse. Willow's character became a disgraceful joke in S6, don't get me wrong. But she shows an amazing amount of restraint considering her level of power...most of the time, so I don't see how people can say she constantly lives along the lines "want, take, have" or something like that. If she did she would be sacrificing innocent people to bring back Tara or something like that.

None of this is to say that Willow shouldn't be accountable for her actions. She should, of course, as should soulless Spike, Faith, etc. The point is that a witch-- in a similar fashion to a vampire whose soul has been taken from him--has to actively fight to resist the negative impulses within and very often can no longer distinguish personal gain from good deeds for the greater good. I think it's a testament to Willow's character that in spite of the pull of magic and the loss of Tara, she is able to regain her sense of morality in season 7. It's a work in progress for sure and I'll be the first person to say that her personality in the comics leaves a lot to be desired, (heck I probably wouldn't even want to hang out with her). But I don't think the Willow Rosenberg of olden days has anything to do with the woman she's become, and I believe that the transformation was a direct result of the duty she was repeatedly asked to perform.

 

[Icarium]

She does other things, like encouraging Dawn to raise her mother from the dead

That's not what happened - Willow wanted Dawn to realize on her own what she wanted was impossible which might not have been the best idea but I wouldn't call it encouraging.

would do that again despite the pain and trauma it caused her friend

What about the hundreds, if not more, people, Buffy has saved since then? Cynically speaking, she can always die again if she wants "heaaaaaaaaaaaaven" that much, she seems quite fine with being alive, I actually find it hilarious people think the resurrection is a bad thing (and I hate S6, mind you).

I know Willow is a favourite of yours but she isn't one of mine so I find no silver lining to any of this stuff.

Even if I agreed, this is still a far cry from Willow always doing whatever she wanted, no consequences, no remorse which seemed to be your original argument.

attempting to prevent herself from cheating by controlling her feelings for Xander and vice versa (if you could do magic and were 16 years old would you not do the same? Don't forget that Xander does a love spell as well and we're not citing that as evidence that he was sociopathic)

Yeah, and Willow mistakenly believed Xander wanted some external solution to the little raging hormones problem. When he said no, she didn't decide to do it anyway, as she most certainly would have if she were the sociopath people say she is. Next thing you know someone might say Buffy is a sociopath because she used the temporary telepathy skill she gained to basically cheat in class.

 

[Blaze]

I hate when the word sociopath is thrown around, in real life, magick or no magick, Willow would NEVER be diagnosed as a sociopath.

 

[Kean]

That's not what happened - Willow wanted Dawn to realize on her own what she wanted was impossible which might not have been the best idea but I wouldn't call it encouraging.

How does placing a spell which raises the dead in the hands of someone who wants to resurrect someone help them realise it is impossible to raise the dead? If she really wanted to help Dawn she could have listened to what the child had to say, acknowledged her pain and then explained to her why you don't resurrect people. Fair enough if you don't see her actions as encouraging but I very much see them as aiding Dawn. I don't see the logic in how putting that book in Dawn's hands isn't encouraging Dawn. It's even more baffling when you add in the fact that Dawn is a child and grieving, how could she possibly be equipped to make a sensible decision here?

What about the hundreds, if not more, people, Buffy has saved since then? Cynically speaking, she can always die again if she wants "heaaaaaaaaaaaaven" that much, she seems quite fine with being alive, I actually find it hilarious people think the resurrection is a bad thing (and I hate S6, mind you).

Or we could talk about the thousands that died between S7 and S8? None of which would have happened if Buffy had just been left in peace. I think the resurrection was a horrendous thing that had more far reaching consequences than Willow could ever conceive of. Buffy has done nothing but get by with the skin of her teeth since being resurrected. She made her peace with being alive again, she got through the depression, but that doesn't mean that her existence isn't very much the worse for what Willow did. I don't find Willow's disregard for the laws of nature and humanity hilarious at all. Just because people have made it through the terrible things Willow did to them doesn't mean that Willow wasn't wrong in doing them.

Even if I agreed, this is still a far cry from Willow always doing whatever she wanted, no consequences, no remorse which seemed to be your original argument.

That is my stance and I don't find anything in this thread to convince me otherwise.

We can only go off what Willow did do, not the horrible things she could have done but didn't. There's no basis of an argument in that for me. I'm saying I find Willow vile because of what she definitely did do.

 

[Lyri]

I think it is an attitude thing more so than her needing to be held accountable. Willow gets so power hungry that it makes her extremely selfish and dangerous but she doesn't seem to care a whole lot. Her addiction to magic made her almost destroy the world yet she continues to immerse herself in that world with the attitude that she can somehow keep herself from going dark again.

In s8 she couln't care less about Buffy having to kill her in TOYL when she had gone dark again. In s9 she is willing to help Angel resurrect Giles if he helps her get magic back; even after the debacle that was resurrecting Buffy. Its almost like she hasn't learned anything from her mistakes...or simply doesn't care.

This pretty much sums up my feelings about Willow.

She never seems to consider her magic a problem, even though she's been shown countless times that she can be dangerous with magic. I think, if she just admitted this, I would like Willow a hell of a lot more than I do.

This is basically the reason why I was so looking forward to seeing Willow without any powers. She's so hung up on the fact that she's apparently useless without magic, she seems to forget the times when she was helpful without it. I wanted to see her be reminded of that and to rebuild her friendship with Buffy and Xander.

But apparently, Joss didn't agree with me.

 

[Icarium]

How does placing a spell which raises the dead in the hands of someone who wants to resurrect someone help them realise it is impossible to raise the dead?

The same giving somebody a physics textbook might help them realize they aren't going to produce nuclear fusion in their garage lab any time soon. Of course, Willow should have considered that Dawn might try casting anyway and the result might not be "nothing happens" but I don't think this constitutes encouragement,

Or we could talk about the thousands that died between S7 and S8? None of which would have happened if Buffy had just been left in peace.

Says who, some random oracle that was never mentioned again? See how much I don't care.

Buffy has done nothing but get by with the skin of her teeth since being resurrected.

Call me crazy but I would prefer this to being, you know, dead. And it's not like her life as hugs and puppies prior to S6, so that's a bit of strawman, don't you think? If Buffy were blissfully happy (as is Spike, another guy who was resurrected, seems to be), would you then say "Go resurrection?" Buffy would have been almost as unhappy if she had miraculously survived The Gift, IMO. And in any event Willow thought she was saving Buffy from a literal hell, which you are free to call stupid (and I call bad writing because it's grossly out of character for neither of the four people who helped resurrect Buffy not to verify that) but in my opinion "they might not be very happy alive" isn't mcuh of an argument against resurrection unless there is some proof heaven is only one chance, you miss it and you are never getting there again. But to be honest I just can't take seriously a heaven which somebody can just pull people away from - "Eternal bliss...well, unless somebody wants you back, sorry". 🙂

We can only go off what Willow did do, not the horrible things she could have done but didn't. There's no basis of an argument in that for me. I'm saying I find Willow vile because of what she definitely did do.

Your original argument was "she will literally do anything to get what she wants". Willow can be all kinds of evil and still not fit the bill, so I am arguing against your gross exaggeration. There are plenty of characters I don't like at all but I don't think they would do literally anything. Usually the old "even evil has standards" trope is in play, especially if we are talking about protagonists. There are many things Willow wanted very much, had the means to achieve but didn't do it because she is not completely lacking moral standards.

Let's do a little mental experiment - picture some notorious evil figure of history or the current headlines or some fictional psychopath. Imagine that he or she has Willow's godlike powers. Do you reckon that they wouldn't try to do much worse than Willow? At least long term, short term is kind of hard to top trying to destroy the world, admittedly.

I don't find Willow's disregard for the laws of nature

Just what is natural about jmping from a high tower into a mgical vortex?

 

[Kean]

Says who, some random oracle that was never mentioned again? See how much I don't care.

Since when does that discredit anything? Beljoxa's Eye is as legitimate as any other McGuffin source the show uses throughout the series. The resurrection allowed the The First to attack the slayer line. That's just canon. And in season 8 we are told Twilight could only happen with Buffy and Angel. If Buffy isn't there, it doesn't happen. But then again, if Buffy isn't resurrected then there is never 2000 slayers there to be killed anyway.

Call me crazy but I would prefer this to being, you know, dead. And it's not like her life as hugs and puppies prior to S6, so that's a bit of strawman, don't you think? If Buffy were blissfully happy (as is Spike, another guy who was resurrected, seems to be), would you then say "Go resurrection?" Buffy would have been almost as unhappy if she had miraculously survived The Gift, IMO. And in any event Willow thought she was saving Buffy from a literal hell, which you are free to call stupid (and I call bad writing because it's grossly out of character for neither of the four people who helped resurrect Buffy not to verify that) but in my opinion "they might not be very happy alive" isn't mcuh of an argument against resurrection unless there is some proof heaven is only one chance, you miss it and you are never getting there again. But to be honest I just can't take seriously a heaven which somebody can just pull people away from - "Eternal bliss...well, unless somebody wants you back, sorry". 🙂

No, I wouldn't be "Go resurrection" because I think a person has a right to die and stay that way. To be done. To be left rest. I think dislodging a resting soul is the ultimate violation, especially when it is done so carelessly and ignorantly. Death was Buffy's gift. She was at peace. And Willow took her from that. We can call all the bad character actions on the show "bad writing" but at the end of the day the character still did them and will be judged on those actions.

That type of Heaven is the only one we have ever been shown in the verse, and it was real to Buffy so I can't not take it seriously.

Your original argument was "she will literally do anything to get what she wants". Willow can be all kinds of evil and still not fit the bill, so I am arguing against your gross exaggeration. There are plenty of characters I don't like at all but I don't think they would do literally anything. Usually the old "even evil has standards" trope is in play, especially if we are talking about protagonists. There are many things Willow wanted very much, had the means to achieve but didn't do it because she is not completely lacking moral standards.

The argument still doesn't hold up for me. To me, Willow doing anything to get what she wants is Willow raising Buffy from the dead, messing with Tara's mind, trying to end the world. That is enough "anything" for me. She has no respect for her friend's personhood. She will use them and manipulate them if it serves a purpose for her. Just because she doesn't do it 24/7 doesn't mean she isn't reprehensible in her own right. Just because there are people/demons who have done worse doesn't mean that she isn't bad, or her actions aren't bad.

Just what is natural about jmping from a high tower into a mgical vortex?

Death is natural. Buffy had served her time as a slayer and she was done. In slayer terms, that was natural. Natural enough it resulted in Buffy's soul passing into Heaven.