Why is Willow more accountable for not being accountable?

[Blaze]

So really Willow is evil for trying to resurrect someone, but Dawn is just a grieving teenager. (ps. Are we forgetting that Xander, Anya and Tara were equally at fault here?)

Willow is evil for doing any love spell, but Xander is just a hormonal boy when he does.

Oh how about when Willow protects them from that medieval guys army in s5 with her barrier, or how she does the same in s7, or that she's the one restoring Angel's soul, or you know that one time she (while being evil I must say) still saved Buffy from that bullet, or when she restored Tara's mind, or when she made defeating Adam possible, or when she took care of Dawn after Buffy's death.

Willow is very much flawed, but people are making her out to be this big monster when she's not.

 

[Mischlings]

To give a simple answer to the original question: Willow gets the negativity for what she's done, in my mind, because of all the characters, she's the one who does the worst and never faces the extreme consequences for what she has done. She is never brought down to Earth either literally by taking her powers away or figuratively by actually limiting how she uses her powers or just learning from her mistakes and showing remorse for trying to end the world.

I still love Willow, I just think she needed to be taken down a few pegs several times.

 

[Kean]

So really Willow is evil for trying to resurrect someone, but Dawn is just a grieving teenager. (ps. Are we forgetting that Xander, Anya and Tara were equally at fault here?)

Willow is evil for doing any love spell, but Xander is just a hormonal boy when he does.

Oh how about when Willow protects them from that medieval guys army in s5 with her barrier, or how she does the same in s7, or that she's the one restoring Angel's soul, or you know that one time she (while being evil I must say) still saved Buffy from that bullet, or when she restored Tara's mind, or when she made defeating Adam possible, or when she took care of Dawn after Buffy's death.

Willow is very much flawed, but people are making her out to be this big monster when she's not.

I never called Willow evil or a monster. I said I found her to be a vile individual. I've explained in several posts why I view her that way. I also never brought Xander into it. I'm not comparing Willow to anyone. The OP asked why she people hold her accountable and I explained my reasons, all of which had to do completely with Willow's actions, no one elses'.

 

[Icarium]

And in season 8 we are told Twilight could only happen with Buffy and Angel.

Yeah, I remember having a good laugh at that nonsense with all the balance and evolution talk. In any case since nobody could have foreseen it (Spike, Darla, etc. being resurrected don't seem to threaten the world in the slightest) I don't see the point of bringing it up. Might as well praise Buffy for not bothering to chase Spike in Halloween since years later he helped save the world.

No, I wouldn't be "Go resurrection" because I think a person has a right to die and stay that way. To be done

And what's stopping Buffy from exercising that right, should she feel so inclined? You are making it sound as if Willow is constantly forcing her to live. Or that Buffy lived to like 123 years and decided to die peacefully.

In slayer terms, that was natural.

Well, then dying in Prophecy Girl was also "natural". Do you also blame Xander for intervening? I actually find it flbbergasting that anyone would find dying because you consdered the other choice to be worse to be the natural course of events in the sense that it shouldn't be reversed, no ifs, no buts. It's only "natural" in the sense "the world sucks a lot sometimes" but trying to change that is kind of the point of the show. What if Buffy had been in hell for an eternity and Willow knew that - do you still think Willow should have said "Oh, well, can't mess with nature, sorry Buffy"?

The argument still doesn't hold up for me. To me, Willow doing anything to get what she wants is Willow raising Buffy from the dead, messing with Tara's mind, trying to end the world. That is enough "anything" for me.

That's a very odd use of the word "anything", if you ask me, since i have already listed many things Willow decided not to do, arguably or I would even say factually, because she had moral standards. It's kind of like saying "Oh, I would eat anything...except for bread, milk, chocolate or insects". Of course, having some standards doesn't mean one isn't a monster for sure, just not the kind of monster you claim them to be.

To give a simple answer to the original question: Willow gets the negativity for what she's done, in my mind, because of all the characters, she's the one who does the worst and never faces the extreme consequences for what she has done.

What were the extreme consequences for Spike, Anya, Andrew, S9 Angel, etc? Seriously, it's a big flaw that applies to many characters in the Buffyverse, not just Willow.

 

[Blaze]

I never called Willow evil or a monster. I said I found her to be a vile individual. I've explained in several posts why I view her that way. I also never brought Xander into it. I'm not comparing Willow to anyone. The OP asked why she people hold her accountable and I explained my reasons, all of which had to do completely with Willow's actions, no one elses'.

I know you weren't comparing her or said she was evil, but a lot of people do, my comment wasn't specifically directed to you. I said it in reply to the whole thread.

The reason that I made comparison is because the point of the OP was why do people nip pick on Willow in comparison to other characters when we all know all characters in the Buffyverse are almost always held unaccountable for their actions.

Of course I believe that Willow should be held accountable, all I'm saying is that if she is, so should other characters.

 

[Lyri]

And what's stopping Buffy from exercising that right, should she feel so inclined? You are making it sound as if Willow is constantly forcing her to live.

Who says that, if Buffy were to choose to kill herself, that she'd go back to Heaven?

I'm serious.

In a lot of religions, suicide is a major sin. You end your own life, you've given yourself a one way ticket to Lucifer's cage, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Buffy's sacrifice in 'The Gift' wasn't suicide, it was giving up her own life so that Dawn and the rest of the world could be saved. That's the very definition of an heroic act and Buffy deserved the Heaven she got.

Committing suicide is about not being able to deal with the world anymore and escaping it. And, God, please don't misunderstand me or put words in my mouth, because I am not sitting here trying to say that suicide is cowardly or no brave, because I would never, EVER do that. But there are a lot of religions that DO believe that (one of the many, MANY reasons I'm an Atheist).

There's nothing in the show that suggests that Buffy would automatically go back to Heaven if she killed herself.

 

[Mischlings]

What were the extreme consequences for Spike, Anya, Andrew, S9 Angel, etc? Seriously, it's a big flaw that applies to many characters in the Buffyverse, not just Willow.

Anya has all her power taken from her, then restored, then taken from her yet again and one of her friends for over a century is killed because of something she did.

Spike has the chip put in his head, which leads to his long character transformation which really reaches its peak in Damages, when he truly starts to feel remorseful for his actions.

Since Season 9 is still ongoing, we haven't seen everything, but given Angel's attitude/behavior, he's at least on the right track for redeeming himself.

Andrew killed one person and caused mayhem in Season 6 that didn't add up to all that much damage. And though the consequences weren't as severe as the others here (see Storyteller), neither were his crimes - and he was genuinely remorseful for them.

I'm not saying that it applies only to Willow, only that the others who have committed similar acts (at the level of trying to end the world) have suffered consequences worse than what she has.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Anya has all her power taken from her, then restored, then taken from her yet again and one of her friends for over a century is killed because of something she did.

Spike has the chip put in his head, which leads to his long character transformation which really reaches its peak in Damages, when he truly starts to feel remorseful for his actions.

Since Season 9 is still ongoing, we haven't seen everything, but given Angel's attitude/behavior, he's at least on the right track for redeeming himself.

Andrew killed one person and caused mayhem in Season 6 that didn't add up to all that much damage. And though the consequences weren't as severe as the others here (see Storyteller), neither were his crimes - and he was genuinely remorseful for them.

I'm not saying that it applies only to Willow, only that the others who have committed similar acts (at the level of trying to end the world) have suffered consequences worse than what she has.

Thats not true though, that was my original point. Pretty much all the characters have killed someone, and only this small group have consequences, none of the others do, like Xander being responsible for the deaths in OMWF, or Giles killing an innocent Ben.

I also think a lot of the excuses are getting ignored, and they may be excuses but they are cannon excuses same as Angels soul or Spike's lack of one in Seeing Red.

Magic is shown as addictive, it's not just Willows grief that is making her do that, she literally drains the magic out of books and fills herself with it. By the time she trying to destroy the world, Giles has doused her with Magic that is making her feel the pain on every person on the planet, she wanted to destroy the world because she could feel every living persons pain and it was so overwhelming that destroying the world seems like a good alternative. People commit suicide dealing with their own individual pain, she had everyones.

I think Faith said it best recently in the comics, she was feeling guilty of her past crimes, but not the deputy mayor because he was a bad guy, for the professor she killed, she didn't care about the mayor. Willow had more of an excuse to flay and kill Warren then Xander did for OMWF.

I think the only reason people want to see her held responsible is because she's not the title character. Buffy gave they no killing people lecture to Willow, but she had no problem killing the knights, Willow has started doing the same thing Buffy has being doing, leading with a 'Do as I say, not as I do' type mentality.

And in her mini series she has taken accountability for her actions and her dark said and begun to fix that, how that will actually play out remains to be seen.

There is never 2000 slayers there to be killed anyway

Off topic but I'm wondering wasn't it something like 206? 2000 slayers is over half of the slayers on the planet, I keep seeing the figure 2000 around but Buffy says it was 200 and something in one of the closing issues of Season 8. I'm not sure where everyone is getting the thousands figure from.

Kean agrees: Sorry, my bad. It's 2000 called and 206 were killed.

Thats the weird thing, I thought it was 2000 till I reread them. And people use 2000 as the figure all the time, I'm beginning to think it must have been mentioned somewhere else (interview or something) for us all to have been using it over and over

 

[Mischlings]

Thats not true though, that was my original point. Pretty much all the characters have killed someone, and only this small group have consequences, none of the others do, like Xander being responsible for the deaths in OMWF, or Giles killing an innocent Ben.

You do have a point there, but did anyone who tried to end the world, other than Willow, get off with so few consequences? I'm starting to think that this is turning more to a discussion of the writers' decisions than a discussion about the characters themselves.

This is spawning an idea for a new thread in my mind. We'll see if that actually happens...

 

[Kean]

Thats the weird thing, I thought it was 2000 till I reread them. And people use 2000 as the figure all the time, I'm beginning to think it must have been mentioned somewhere else (interview or something) for us all to have been using it over and over

I feel like this is possibly some sort of fanon fallout from the intense reaction to the Twilight arc. Everyone got so worked up and just stayed that way. I remember discussions happening before we were given a figure where we didn't know how many had actually been killed and people were assuming that they were all killed.

 

[Robb Stark]

Thats not true though, that was my original point. Pretty much all the characters have killed someone, and only this small group have consequences, none of the others do, like Xander being responsible for the deaths in OMWF, or Giles killing an innocent Ben.

I felt bad for Ben but the fact remains that if he doesn't die, Glory comes back and the world ends. Not much different from Buffy killing Angel at the end of S2. You're kind of lumping things that have clear extenuating circumstances into Willow's situation, and they aren't the same.

I also think a lot of the excuses are getting ignored, and they may be excuses but they are cannon excuses same as Angels soul or Spike's lack of one in Seeing Red.

Magic is shown as addictive, it's not just Willows grief that is making her do that, she literally drains the magic out of books and fills herself with it. By the time she trying to destroy the world, Giles has doused her with Magic that is making her feel the pain on every person on the planet, she wanted to destroy the world because she could feel every living persons pain and it was so overwhelming that destroying the world seems like a good alternative. People commit suicide dealing with their own individual pain, she had everyones.

Willow goes a while without using magic at all, and seems to do fine. It's purely her decision to tap into powers she knows full well she can't control. For me, I can understand that, but there's no excuse for that, given what she does.

And I'm sorry, but her feeling others pain? I don't care. There are plenty of people out there who are just fine and perfectly happy, and Willow wants them to die too. That's bad.

I think Faith said it best recently in the comics, she was feeling guilty of her past crimes, but not the deputy mayor because he was a bad guy, for the professor she killed, she didn't care about the mayor. Willow had more of an excuse to flay and kill Warren then Xander did for OMWF.

I don't think that many people fully understand just what flaying is and what it does to a person. It is THE most physically painful in the world. Like, the worst. The only positive factor is that Warren probably died pretty fast (although, like you said, he didn't die at all). Flaying another human being, no matter what they've done, is evil. It's like rape, there is never, ever a situation which makes it okay. It's compounded by the fact that Warren is tied up, begging and no present threat whatsoever. By that logic, if Willow gets a pass, then we should just kill every violent criminal out there, right?

I think the only reason people want to see her held responsible is because she's not the title character. Buffy gave they no killing people lecture to Willow, but she had no problem killing the knights, Willow has started doing the same thing Buffy has being doing, leading with a 'Do as I say, not as I do' type mentality.

And in her mini series she has taken accountability for her actions and her dark said and begun to fix that, how that will actually play out remains to be seen.

(I haven't read into S9 yet so I can't fairly comment on it)

No, that's not it. Not at all. Willow bugs me because she takes almost zero accountability for the things she's done, and by S8 is basically just pretending it doesn't matter. Why doesn't that come up? When Willow is forced to use magic in S7 to save Buffy and company from the Turok-Han, I understand that. There's very clear grey there. There isn't in S8 when she's just using magic as an everyday tool again.

And to be fair, Willow, until quite recently on here, doesn't get held accountable by most fans very often, not nearly to the same degree that Spike, Angel or Buffy do. And the fact that in S7 she suffers virtually zero consequences for literally trying to kill seven billion people, when everything that led her to that place was personal choice, it's hard to like her as a character. In terms of scope, Willow's actions in S6 are far more extreme than anything Buffy, Angel, Spike, Xander, Andrew or Giles do.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I felt bad for Ben but the fact remains that if he doesn't die, Glory comes back and the world ends. Not much different from Buffy killing Angel at the end of S2. You're kind of lumping things that have clear extenuating circumstances into Willow's situation, and they aren't the same.

But Warren does come back in season 8, so by Willow not killing him he came back and caused more damage, it's the exact same situation as with Ben!

Willow goes a while without using magic at all, and seems to do fine. It's purely her decision to tap into powers she knows full well she can't control. For me, I can understand that, but there's no excuse for that, given what she does.

But you are totally ignoring all of the canon information about that. She gives up magic and then chooses in grief to go back to it, after that she can't give it up, Giles tells her it's dangerous if she did that, she has no choice but to use magic, she continues to do that but she cuts way back on it in season 7.

And I'm sorry, but her feeling others pain? I don't care. There are plenty of people out there who are just fine and perfectly happy, and Willow wants them to die too. That's bad.

I agree, but it's not like she did this on a random Tuesday. She was suffering her own grief, and then got smacked down with everyone else's, all while effectivly off her head on magic (ugh) it doesn't matter how many people were feeling good, she was feeling the entire worlds grief, that would be overwhelming, not to mention she seems to think she's helping by ending everyone's grief (cuz she's off her head)

I don't think that many people fully understand just what flaying is and what it does to a person. It is THE most physically painful in the world. Like, the worst. The only positive factor is that Warren probably died pretty fast (although, like you said, he didn't die at all). Flaying another human being, no matter what they've done, is evil. It's like rape, there is never, ever a situation which makes it okay. It's compounded by the fact that Warren is tied up, begging and no present threat whatsoever. By that logic, if Willow gets a pass, then we should just kill every violent criminal out there, right

?
But it isn't like rape, it is a horrible thing to do, but it also used to be a method of execution, comparing it to rape is wrong because its nothing like that and it's just putting it next to it to sound worse.
To be perfectly honest I'd question if warren felt anything, every nerve ending in his body would have fired at once, that's be an over load to the brain, the reason flaying is considered so bad, is cuz it so slow, and the flesh is cut away in bits.
When he comes back he lobotomises Willow, that would have been far worse as it was slow.

No, that's not it. Not at all. Willow bugs me because she takes almost zero accountability for the things she's done, and by S8 is basically just pretending it doesn't matter. Why doesn't that come up? When Willow is forced to use magic in S7 to save Buffy and company from the Turok-Han, I understand that. There's very clear grey there. There isn't in S8 when she's just using magic as an everyday tool again

.
Your mistaking pretending it doesn't matter with it not caring. Same as Faith doesn't care she kills the deputy mayor, or how Buffy doesn't care she killed the knights, they were bad guys, they didn't matter, harsh but true. I don't mean their lives didn't matter, but why waste time caring over someone who was such a bad guy.
No other character does, if any other character killed a human that was a bad guy they don't care.
The only two people that show caring for killing is Faith and Angel.

Also by the time season 8 comes around, willow is in more control of her magic. She can't stop using it, she doesn't have a choice, in season 7 she was afraid of it, didn't want to use it. When she did the activation spell her opinion changed on magic, she may have started using it for everything, but everything she was using it for was completely different than before , she wasn't using it to change her cloths or erase memories, she was using it to fight battles and not like she had been as a side kick, she was using her power to fight her own battles.
The amount she was using magic was the same, but how she's using magic isn't.

And to be fair, Willow, until quite recently on here, doesn't get held accountable by most fans very often, not nearly to the same degree that Spike, Angel or Buffy do. And the fact that in S7 she suffers virtually zero consequences for literally trying to kill seven billion people, when everything that led her to that place was personal choice, it's hard to like her as a character. In terms of scope, Willow's actions in S6 are far more extreme than anything Buffy, Angel, Spike, Xander, Andrew or Giles do.

No people have always been vocal about her lack of accountability, people are just discussing it more now, I'd say because she has had her own series and has become more prominent.
I also think it's important that Willow wasn't taken out with violence, when everyone else that tried to end the world like Angelus or Spike brining back the Judge, violence was the answer, with Willow she could be talked down because it wasn't really what she wanted to do, she was off her head on magic and grief.

 

[Robb Stark]

But Warren does come back in season 8, so by Willow not killing him he came back and caused more damage, it's the exact same situation as with Ben!

There's a very, very big difference between a criminal (Warren) who might commit another crime (prison, which is surely where he was heading, would have solved the Warren problem just as well), and someone like Ben who, while being innocent himself, is the gateway to hell merging with Earth and global Armageddon. They don't correlate.

But you are totally ignoring all of the canon information about that. She gives up magic and then chooses in grief to go back to it, after that she can't give it up, Giles tells her it's dangerous if she did that, she has no choice but to use magic, she continues to do that but she cuts way back on it in season 7.

There's no evidence to suggest that Giles is offering anything more than opinion, which Willow just accepts. Sorry, I just don't find that...good enough. Willow almost caused Armageddon. We've shown, through canon, that she goes dark again, so surely Giles isn't entirely correct.

?
But it isn't like rape, it is a horrible thing to do, but it also used to be a method of execution, comparing it to rape is wrong because its nothing like that and it's just putting it next to it to sound worse.
To be perfectly honest I'd question if warren felt anything, every nerve ending in his body would have fired at once, that's be an over load to the brain, the reason flaying is considered so bad, is cuz it so slow, and the flesh is cut away in bits.
When he comes back he lobotomises Willow, that would have been far worse as it was slow.

My point was that they are both naturally evil acts. To do either one, regardless of which is "more evil" (and when they're both that bad, I don't really care), takes someone who has something incredibly wrong with them. There's no excuse for either one. And yes, I think someone who engages in flaying is just as bad as a rapist. Just an opinion, but they're both evil to me.

But you're right, that fast, he wouldn't have felt much. Good point.

Also by the time season 8 comes around, willow is in more control of her magic. She can't stop using it, she doesn't have a choice, in season 7 she was afraid of it, didn't want to use it. When she did the activation spell her opinion changed on magic, she may have started using it for everything, but everything she was using it for was completely different than before , she wasn't using it to change her cloths or erase memories, she was using it to fight battles and not like she had been as a side kick, she was using her power to fight her own battles.
The amount she was using magic was the same, but how she's using magic isn't.

But we're shown very, very clearly in "Retreat" that this just isn't true. She's not in control. Buffy travels to the future, links up with Frey (is it Fray?) and finds that Willow has gone dark. She has lost control. Again. That says just about all you need to know.

I also think it's important that Willow wasn't taken out with violence, when everyone else that tried to end the world like Angelus or Spike brining back the Judge, violence was the answer, with Willow she could be talked down because it wasn't really what she wanted to do, she was off her head on magic and grief.

I don't see why that matters, to be honest. I mean, the amount of crap Xander gives Angel when he comes back in S2 has nothing to do with Buffy stabbing him with a sword. And that's a very clear cut example of that not even being Angel's fault at all (although granted, Xander's view is skewed by his feelings for Buffy). Angel is accepted back into the group, but it takes time, it takes them dealing with what happened. Why doesn't Willow face the same level of scrutiny?

 

[Lyri]

But you are totally ignoring all of the canon information about that. She gives up magic and then chooses in grief to go back to it, after that she can't give it up, Giles tells her it's dangerous if she did that, she has no choice but to use magic, she continues to do that but she cuts way back on it in season 7.

But it's also been proven, in canon, that she CAN give it up. She gives it up in Retreat, and only goes back to it when Twilight attacks. She's then shown, in S9, to be living a perfectly nice life with a decent job, all without magic and it's not shown to have any sort of affect on her. She only decides to get magic back because she WANTS it, not because she NEEDS it.

This was what *I* wanted from S9, to see Willow struggling to make her life work without magic. I wanted to see her bound and determined to prove to everyone that she can be useful WITHOUT magic, that she could be a needed and valuable member of this team without the power of the universe at her fingertips.

Instead, we got a whiny little cry baby who couldn't - or didn't want to - see the amazing leaps she had made in her life without the use of magic. A decent job, a girl who seemed to like her a lot, friends, A LIFE.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But Warren does come back in season 8, so by Willow not killing him he came back and caused more damage, it's the exact same situation as with Ben!

There's a very, very big difference between a criminal (Warren) who might commit another crime (prison, which is surely where he was heading, would have solved the Warren problem just as well), and someone like Ben who, while being innocent himself, is the gateway to hell merging with Earth and global Armageddon. They don't correlate.

I don't see a difference, Warren wasn't a normal criminal, we don't know that a normal prision could have kept him.

There's no evidence to suggest that Giles is offering anything more than opinion, which Willow just accepts. Sorry, I just don't find that...good enough. Willow almost caused Armageddon. We've shown, through canon, that she goes dark again, so surely Giles isn't entirely correct.

What?! Why do you think Giles, who a year ago was calling her a rank, arregant amature, would all of a sudden be fine with letting her do magic. The coven Willow is training with are afraid of her, do you think they wouldn't have explored other option rather than teaching her to control her power if they had a choice.
That can be your opinion but nothing on the show suggests otherwise, all we need is one thing on the show to make it canon. Thats like saying Slayers aren't from demon essence because only the shadow men said it.

But we're shown very, very clearly in "Retreat" that this just isn't true. She's not in control. Buffy travels to the future, links up with Frey (is it Fray?) and finds that Willow has gone dark. She has lost control. Again. That says just about all you need to know.

But that isn't the whole story, we don't actually know she's gone dark, her latest storyline is about balancing herself, excepting her dark self as part of herself to have better control of it. So there's gonna be more to that story, or it may be irrelevant after the Twilight story and Willows story.

I don't see why that matters, to be honest. I mean, the amount of crap Xander gives Angel when he comes back in S2 has nothing to do with Buffy stabbing him with a sword. And that's a very clear cut example of that not even being Angel's fault at all (although granted, Xander's view is skewed by his feelings for Buffy). Angel is accepted back into the group, but it takes time, it takes them dealing with what happened. Why doesn't Willow face the same level of scrutiny?

Because Angel killed innocent people, Willow killed Warren and no one cares, he was a bad guy who killed their friend.

But it's also been proven, in canon, that she CAN give it up. She gives it up in Retreat, and only goes back to it when Twilight attacks. She's then shown, in S9, to be living a perfectly nice life with a decent job, all without magic and it's not shown to have any sort of affect on her. She only decides to get magic back because she WANTS it, not because she NEEDS it.

I don't know if I'd count the story in Retreat, since she doesn't actually give it up. Giles says it's part of her, if she stopped using it, it would still be there, same way it was when Tara died and she could call it up so quickly.
In retreat she doesn't just stop using it, it's offered up to a god, it's not part of her.
In season 9 it's a similar situation, it's gone from the world, not just part of her not being used, but she's disconnected from something that was a part of her, course she'd want that back, same way anyone would, we also know from the story the world does need it, magic being gone from the world is having a knock on effect from the rest of the world, it is needed.

This was what *I* wanted from S9, to see Willow struggling to make her life work without magic. I wanted to see her bound and determined to prove to everyone that she can be useful WITHOUT magic, that she could be a needed and valuable member of this team without the power of the universe at her fingertips.

Instead, we got a whiny little cry baby who couldn't - or didn't want to - see the amazing leaps she had made in her life without the use of magic. A decent job, a girl who seemed to like her a lot, friends, A LIFE.

This is exactly the same to me as Angel reversing the day in IWARY, he didn't want to be powerless in the fight, Willow is the same. She admits herself that she wants her power back, but its for herself and the world and to be able to fight, now she has that back, and mission to help everyone with magic as much as she can, part of wanting that back is selfish, as it would be with anyone, but there is a bigger picture to this as well.

 

[EVIL UU]

You know guys, reading this thread one question comes to my mind. Why do you want Willow to be held accountable for her actions? No, seriously, why? Justice? There's no such thing in BtVS. You want her to be Miss Goody Two-Shoes, well that's just not Willow and it's kinda too late for that anyway. I don't understand it. I mean, personally I don't want Willow to be accountable. I don't want a redemption arc, I don't want her to brood, or to be punished or to feel sorry for what she's done, ever. It's incredibly boring, it's been done so many times before with so many characters, I want one perfectly remorseless woman in this franchise, powerful enough to be able to never face the consequences of her actions. I want her to do whatever the hell she wants, whatever the hell makes her happy, good or evil, I don't care. I want Willow to be a truly independent force, to not become a pathetic little worthless victim like Buffy. If that means she's also evil I'm OK with that. I think it's just much more interesting than the alternatives.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Why doesn't Willow face the same level of scrutiny?

Because both Xander and Buffy love her. Like really love her. Dawn does too and Willow doesn't care about anybody else. Also, power. Willow is simply too powerful and too useful for them to give her shit in season 7 and seriously, Buffy doesn't care about anything you've done as long as she's in charge. She actually cooperates with Warren in the comics if you want an example.

 

[Robb Stark]

What?! Why do you think Giles, who a year ago was calling her a rank, arregant amature, would all of a sudden be fine with letting her do magic. The coven Willow is training with are afraid of her, do you think they wouldn't have explored other option rather than teaching her to control her power if they had a choice.
That can be your opinion but nothing on the show suggests otherwise, all we need is one thing on the show to make it canon. Thats like saying Slayers aren't from demon essence because only the shadow men said it.

That's twisting what I was saying, and taking things out of context. Giles calls Willow that after she alters the laws of nature with no thought to the consequences. He never said "don't do magic". And no, it isn't like saying Slayers aren't from demon essences. We're shown that to happen because they actually do it. Giles is offering an opinion. And clearly, he's wrong, Willow does go dark again. You can say that might change in future storylines, but nothing from what we're presented with now suggests that.

But that isn't the whole story, we don't actually know she's gone dark, her latest storyline is about balancing herself, excepting her dark self as part of herself to have better control of it. So there's gonna be more to that story, or it may be irrelevant after the Twilight story and Willows story.

I kinda answered this above, but the fact that Twilight may have changed the Fray future doesn't change the fact that Willow has the capability to lose control again.

Because Angel killed innocent people, Willow killed Warren and no one cares, he was a bad guy who killed their friend.

When tallying the list of Willow's crimes, Warren is not at the top of the list. I was speaking more about trying to end the world. That's a fairly big deal.

I don't know if I'd count the story in Retreat, since she doesn't actually give it up. Giles says it's part of her, if she stopped using it, it would still be there, same way it was when Tara died and she could call it up so quickly.
In retreat she doesn't just stop using it, it's offered up to a god, it's not part of her.
In season 9 it's a similar situation, it's gone from the world, not just part of her not being used, but she's disconnected from something that was a part of her, course she'd want that back, same way anyone would, we also know from the story the world does need it, magic being gone from the world is having a knock on effect from the rest of the world, it is needed.

I'm sorry, but to me, this feels pretty flimsy. Tara, Giles, Buffy, Spike, Angel, Andrew, Dawn, Jonathon, Wesley and a host of others all perform magic on a near constant basis, and it isn't "a part of them". Why does Willow get a pass for that, when it's clear she's been repeatedly irresponsible with magic? Why is magic "a part of her", and not the others? That doesn't make any sense. The coven granted Giles those extra powers, right? So if Willow hadn't stripped him of them, he would have constantly had to do magic, or else...what? Why can't Willow just choose not to do magic, when everyone else, even others with amplified powers themselves, can make that choice? That makes no sense.

Magic is not something that is unique to her and her alone. It's a tool, that many people use. She's just very powerful when using it, more than most. It's not the same as with a Slayer being unable to "turn off" their super-strength, for example. Willow can choose not to do it. There is no rational explanation as to why she's the only person on the planet who "has" to do magic. Presumably, if the coven had bestowed those added powers on Giles, they had plans to remove them. Why is Willow different? There's no logic there.

Willow starts using magic again because she has to, in order to save her friends lives. Fair enough. But she keeps using it in S8 because she's selfish and has fallen back into the same patterns that got her into that crap in the first place. Does Willow need to fly everywhere? Does Willow need to teleport everywhere, or go on fairly ridiculous spirit quests? No. No she doesn't. How is flying everywhere any different than her previously using magic to change her clothes?

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

You know guys, reading this thread one question comes to my mind. Why do you want Willow to be held accountable for her actions? No, seriously, why? Justice? There's no such thing in BtVS. You want her to be Miss Goody Two-Shoes, well that's just not Willow and it's kinda too late for that anyway. I don't understand it. I mean, personally I don't want Willow to be accountable. I don't want a redemption arc, I don't want her to brood, or to be punished or to feel sorry for what she's done, ever. It's incredibly boring, it's been done so many times before with so many characters, I want one perfectly remorseless woman in this franchise, powerful enough to be able to never face the consequences of her actions. I want her to do whatever the hell she wants, whatever the hell makes her happy, good or evil, I don't care. I want Willow to be a truly independent force, to not become a pathetic little worthless victim like Buffy. If that means she's also evil I'm OK with that. I think it's just much more interesting than the alternatives.

I suppose a part of it is that I liked her so much in S1-3, and didn't care for how her character changed. But then again, you raise a good point. Characters do change and evolve, and not always to the liking of those who enjoyed them previously. There's not a thing wrong with that, because it adds a new and unique dimension to the story. Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that she doesn't piss me off, which may very well have been what the writers were going for at the time. If so, mission accomplished.

 

[Lyri]

This is exactly the same to me as Angel reversing the day in IWARY, he didn't want to be powerless in the fight, Willow is the same.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this. It isn't the same at all.

Angel was told that Buffy would die if he remained human, so he swallowed the day because he thought it would save her. He wasn't given anymore information, the only thing that came to mind was that, if he stayed human, Buffy would stay with him and ultimately get killed. That's the only scenario he saw. And so he reversed the day so that Buffy would go back to Sunnydale, thinking that he'd changed everything and Buffy wouldn't die.

Willow is given no such prophecy. She just wants her powers back because she doesn't like being powerless. In fact, the 'prophecy' she was given tells her that she'll go dark again at some point and live for hundreds of years until she can trick her best friend into killing her. And she still continues to 'need' her powers.

Yes, I'll admit, Willow has done A LOT of good with her magic, but she's also done A LOT of bad shit, too, and, personally, if I was Willow and I knew what was going to happen to me, I would have quit magic then and there and never looked back.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

That's twisting what I was saying, and taking things out of context. Giles calls Willow that after she alters the laws of nature with no thought to the consequences. He never said "don't do magic". And no, it isn't like saying Slayers aren't from demon essences. We're shown that to happen because they actually do it. Giles is offering an opinion. And clearly, he's wrong, Willow does go dark again. You can say that might change in future storylines, but nothing from what we're presented with now suggests that.

How is it twisting what you said, You believe its just Giles opinion that Willow can't give it up, but nothing suggest that in the show. We know Giles is a researcher, he would have looked into it, and there was a coven of people that seemed to agree with him. Giles knows how bad Willow got, he wouldn't send her back down that path lightly.

Willow goes black haired again, but nothing suggests she's actually gone evil. Since the last issue of her mini series Willow accepted her darker side, that would directly effect a Dark Willow story, she's now the only person on the planet responsible for magic, some version of a new seed, and the reason she could be that is because she has a balance of good and evil.
Willow tells Fray, Buffy can't go back to the past as it will mess up her future, but she tells Harth that Buffy being there makes that future, we don't know which is real yet, sending Buffy back brought about the end of magic, but Buffy didn't go to a different world like we saw, the last slayer called did, in Fray.
Buffys slayer army also aren't in the history books in TOYL, so nothing about the future adds up yet.
The only thing we know is Willow brought Buffy to the future to kill Willow, saying it wasn't important how you die, but who does it.

Nothing Willow actually does in the future is evil, so we don't know she did go evil again, she plays both sides and lets Buffy kill her, that seems more like a responsible Willow keeping the balance than an evil Willow.

When tallying the list of Willow's crimes, Warren is not at the top of the list. I was speaking more about trying to end the world. That's a fairly big deal.

Then why doesn't Giles bear responsibility for that? Willow wasn't going to end the world till Giles opens her up to the worlds pain. The whole thing wasn't in Willows regular thought process, it was while under the influence of incredible power.

I'm sorry, but to me, this feels pretty flimsy. Tara, Giles, Buffy, Spike, Angel, Andrew, Dawn, Jonathon, Wesley and a host of others all perform magic on a near constant basis, and it isn't "a part of them". Why does Willow get a pass for that, when it's clear she's been repeatedly irresponsible with magic? Why is magic "a part of her", and not the others? That doesn't make any sense. The coven granted Giles those extra powers, right? So if Willow hadn't stripped him of them, he would have constantly had to do magic, or else...what? Why can't Willow just choose not to do magic, when everyone else, even others with amplified powers themselves, can make that choice? That makes no sense.

The only one who does magic regularly is Tara, the rest dabble in it a little bit. Willow is also completely different, she's in a completely different league to the rest, she's beyond their power. She doesn't just say she is the most powerful witch on the planet for the arrogance of the title, she actually IS the most powerful witch. The entire point of her power progressing the way it did was because something was different about Willow.
Magic is also was a part of Tara, all the women in her family have power, the men used that to make them believe they were part demon. Amy is the only other witch we know who uses magic as much as Willow did, and she was on a similar path.

Magic is not something that is unique to her and her alone. It's a tool, that many people use. She's just very powerful when using it, more than most. It's not the same as with a Slayer being unable to "turn off" their super-strength, for example. Willow can choose not to do it. There is no rational explanation as to why she's the only person on the planet who "has" to do magic. Presumably, if the coven had bestowed those added powers on Giles, they had plans to remove them. Why is Willow different? There's no logic there.

But it is unique to her, everyone remarks how extraordinary it is how fast her powers grow, like Giles and Tara, even Amy says Willow is in a league of her own. Magic is shown to be expendable not unlimited, Willow taps herself out in season 6, and has to recharge, Willow naturally seems to have a larger well to hold power than other characters.
The coven didn't have plans to remove the power from Giles, the intention was for Willow to absorb the power out of him, same she did with Rack, but she didn't remove his ability to do magic, she took the magic from him (like taking a battery's charge but not the battery, it could still be recharged after that.)

Willow starts using magic again because she has to, in order to save her friends lives. Fair enough. But she keeps using it in S8 because she's selfish and has fallen back into the same patterns that got her into that crap in the first place. Does Willow need to fly everywhere? Does Willow need to teleport everywhere, or go on fairly ridiculous spirit quests? No. No she doesn't. How is flying everywhere any different than her previously using magic to change her clothes?

Yes because flying is her way of transport, she flys to save time and get to places other people can't get to, like when she goes to that jungle place and heals one of the slayers, that girl would have died had Willow not flown there.
She flys because she can, same reason Buffy does when she gets that power.

I don't see much difference between Willow wanting her power back and if Buffy lost her power and wanted it back. Anyone that thinks Buffy would be happy with a normal life is kidding themselves, Buffy will always want to help people, taking that away from her is taking away part of her. Willow uses her power to fight evil, she goes on the mission to get her power back for herself and to help the world. Like Buffy, saving the world is part of Willow now its something she wants to do.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this. It isn't the same at all.

Angel was told that Buffy would die if he remained human, so he swallowed the day because he thought it would save her. He wasn't given anymore information, the only thing that came to mind was that, if he stayed human, Buffy would stay with him and ultimately get killed. That's the only scenario he saw. And so he reversed the day so that Buffy would go back to Sunnydale, thinking that he'd changed everything and Buffy wouldn't die.

Willow is given no such prophecy. She just wants her powers back because she doesn't like being powerless. In fact, the 'prophecy' she was given tells her that she'll go dark again at some point and live for hundreds of years until she can trick her best friend into killing her. And she still continues to 'need' her powers.

I haven't seen the episode in a while, but wasn't part of his thought process that if he was human, he couldn't protect her?

And what about all the people committing suicide in the world without magic? Connor confirms, what Willow was already aware of, that the world is becoming more depressed without magic, suicide rates have spiked and creativity has died. Willow wants her power back, but she also wants to restore magic to restore creativity and hope.

Yes, I'll admit, Willow has done A LOT of good with her magic, but she's also done A LOT of bad shit, too, and, personally, if I was Willow and I knew what was going to happen to me, I would have quit magic then and there and never looked back.

Up until reading Willow mini series, I agreed with you, but I think that story changes everything.