Why is Willow more accountable for not being accountable?

[Robb Stark]

@Black Eyed Guy,

I don't think we're going to reach common ground on this, and that's fine, it happens. To answer the OP, I think I've answered sufficiently why I think Willow deserves to be held accountable for what she's done, and why she hasn't been. Perfectly cool if you disagree with me.

I'm not a Willow fan, and I didn't like the direction she headed in after S3. I think I've been fair, if a bit firm, in the way I perceive Willow, and despite best efforts on both sides, I don't think either one of us has changed the other's opinion.

That's cool. We seem to agree on about 90 percent of the stuff on here anyways. Was bound to happen at some point 🙂.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy's sacrifice in 'The Gift' wasn't suicide

Yes, it was. A very stupid one too that never should have worked as Buffy intended since the Summers blood thing was pretty much Joss failing Logic 101. Nobody in show ever raised the issue of whether suicide prevented people from going to heaven anyway so this point is moot, IMO.

Anya has all her power taken from her, then restored, then taken from her yet again and one of her friends for over a century is killed because of something she did.

Considering she has slaughtered thousands of people in all kinds of gruesome I think she got off with a slap on the wrist at best. And since Halfrek's death was more like D"Hoffryn being a TV villain than any real cause and effect punishment, I might as well claim Tara died because of something Willow did, say not catching Warren or the important death at the end of S8 (not sure if I should use spoilers, so I am being vague) is because of Willow's actions, etc.

Spike has the chip put in his head,

So? That hardly counts as punishment, either. Are you counting Willow's no magic periods in S6 and S9 then? Spike got away with mass murder, repeatedly. It's hilarious to see him cited as an example of how actions have consequences n the Buffyverse, he and Anya are the best examples for the exact opposite thing.

 

[Mischlings]

Considering she has slaughtered thousands of people in all kinds of gruesome I think she got off with a slap on the wrist at best. And since Halfrek's death was more like D"Hoffryn being a TV villain than any real cause and effect punishment, I might as well claim Tara died because of something Willow did, say not catching Warren or the important death at the end of S8 (not sure if I should use spoilers, so I am being vague) is because of Willow's actions, etc.

So? That hardly counts as punishment, either. Are you counting Willow's no magic periods in S6 and S9 then? Spike got away with mass murder, repeatedly. It's hilarious to see him cited as an example of how actions have consequences n the Buffyverse, he and Anya are the best examples for the exact opposite thing.

I can tell we have a fundamental disagreement and are just talking past each other now about this, so this is the last post I'll have about this.

Halfrek died directly because of what Anya did. D'Hoffryn did that because he wanted to punish Anya, and that combined with losing her powers led to her changing her stance on humanity and fighting against The First's army for the sake of helping humanity, not running to save her skin (season 3) or fighting specifically to help protect Xander (Season 5). She truly shows remorse for her actions and changes.

As for Spike, I don't get that logic. He had the chip put in his head just because he was a random demon, yes, but are you seriously saying that he didn't suffer any sort of consequences for that? Losing his ability to hurt people and starting a sequence of events in which he voluntarily has his soul restored and takes on all the guilt from everything he did, genuinely feeling remorse for it by the end.

I won't comment on Season 9 as I haven't yet read Willow's series and it's also not over. As for her period of not using magic in Season 6... What evil had she done at that point? She was rash and a little tough to control, but it wasn't until after that period when she went on her rampage and tried to end the world, which she has never had to pay, either in the sense of consequences someone imposes on her or her learning and becoming a better person for it, like the others I've mentioned.

That's my take on it, we seem to disagree, but I've presented my side of it and I don't see the need to argue it further.

 

[Icarium]

As for Spike, I don't get that logic. He had the chip put in his head just because he was a random demon, yes, but are you seriously saying that he didn't suffer any sort of consequences for that? Losing his ability to hurt people

Poor Spike...Whatever will he do without killing people every night. Seriously, talk about a slap on the wrist. Compare Spike's faith with that almost all "no name" vampires we see.

And Anya was punished...for not being evil enough for her boss's taste. She was most certainly not punished for her appalling amount of murders (in fact her past was played as a joke most of the time) and lives ruined in other ways, so apples and oranges, IMO. In a very (predictable) Jossian she was kind of punished for her good deeds.

 

[Lyri]

Yes, it was. A very stupid one too that never should have worked as Buffy intended since the Summers blood thing was pretty much Joss failing Logic 101. Nobody in show ever raised the issue of whether suicide prevented people from going to heaven anyway so this point is moot, IMO.

Buffy sacrificed her own life in order to save the world and the billions of people in it - by your logic, every single Slayer who has ever died fighting evil has committed suicide.

And it doesn't matter that you don't think the plot line was illogical or shouldn't have worked. The only thing that does matter is that it DID work and it's canon. Buffy traded places with Dawn and sacrificed herself to save her sister and the world.

She didn't step in front of a bus.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy sacrificed her own life in order to save the world and the billions of people in it - by your logic, every single Slayer who has ever died fighting evil has committed suicide

There is a difference between taking action to end your own life and being defeated in battle, you know.

Buffy traded places with Dawn and sacrificed herself to save her sister and the world.

Yeah. By committing a suicide. One can argue it was an extremely heroic suicide (while I maintain it was disgracefully stupid) but still a suicide is a suicide. To get back to the topic, even the most capricious deity would be hard pressed to find justification for using this as a way of not getting Buffy back in their heaven - assuming the suicide factor is the stumbling block. The chance for heaven only being valid once is much more likely of a scenario, if we want to be cruel to poor Buffy. Because really, even if the suicide would be a stumbling block all Buffy needs to do is not fight hard enough one time - something Spike (foolishly, IMO) thought was what happened to all Slayers in the end anyway.

 

[Lyri]

There is a difference between taking action to end your own life and being defeated in battle, you know.

Are you honestly telling me that you think Buffy is the first Slayer in the history of the line to throw herself in the path of danger in order to save someone else's life - or the world?

What Buffy did in 'The Gift' is the equivalent of Steve Rodgers in the Captain America movie. When what he thought was a live grenade hit the ground, he threw himself on top of it, knowing that his sacrifice would save the lives of others.

Was he committing suicide?

What about all those soldiers on the front lines who have done exactly that, but themselves in the path of a bullet or a bomb or something else in order to save the lives of the rest of their unit - where they committing suicide?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Well, the way I see it, it's pretty simple. You are given a choice, to live or to die. When you choose to die you commit a suicide. I don't care about your reasons because guess what, you are dead. You've chosen to die. Sacrifice is just a pretty word used to glorify your act of freaking killing yourself, used to distinguish you from those whose reasons to kill themselves were deemed lesser, but in the end you who jumped from the tower and Chloe who hanged herself in the bathroom are equal. Dead by their own choice.

Really, it's just natural selection at work, a test. Those who choose to die, die, those who choose to live, live. Martyrdom and suicide are for the weak, the strong endure, survive to pass on their genes.

What about all those soldiers on the front lines who have done exactly that, but themselves in the path of a bullet or a bomb or something else in order to save the lives of the rest of their unit - where they committing suicide?

Sure they were.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

It is sort of interesting that Willow immobilizes and flays Warren, gets stopped from destroying the world, returns to the hellmouth and promptly runs into Gnarl who paralyses her and starts eating her skin. I suppose this is some kind of instant karma that has her tortured in the same manner she tortured Warren. Maybe this is how she is accountable.

 

[Lyri]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Well, the way I see it, it's pretty simple. You are given a choice, to live or to die. When you choose to die you commit a suicide. I don't care about your reasons because guess what, you are dead. You've chosen to die. Sacrifice is just a pretty word used to glorify your act of freaking killing yourself, used to distinguish you from those whose reasons to kill themselves were deemed lesser, but in the end you who jumped from the tower and Chloe who hanged herself in the bathroom are equal. Dead by their own choice.

Really, it's just natural selection at work, a test. Those who choose to die, die, those who choose to live, live. Martyrdom and suicide are for the weak, the strong endure, survive to pass on their genes.



Sure they were.

So, what? You think Buffy would have been braver to just stand by and watch the world end? You think my friend - who died in Iraq - was a COWARD for giving up his life in order to try to save some people?!

God.

I'm really, REALLY glad I don't live in your world.

I'm done with this idiotic discussion.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Well, the way I see it, it's pretty simple. You are given a choice, to live or to die. When you choose to die you commit a suicide. I don't care about your reasons because guess what, you are dead. You've chosen to die. Sacrifice is just a pretty word used to glorify your act of freaking killing yourself, used to distinguish you from those whose reasons to kill themselves were deemed lesser, but in the end you who jumped from the tower and Chloe who hanged herself in the bathroom are equal. Dead by their own choice.

Really, it's just natural selection at work, a test. Those who choose to die, die, those who choose to live, live. Martyrdom and suicide are for the weak, the strong endure, survive to pass on their genes.



Sure they were.

So if Dawn would have killed herself, then it would have also been suicide? So either way the story was ending in suicide? I'm just curious about the way you see it, it's a pretty interesting point of view.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Well, the way I see it, it's pretty simple. You are given a choice, to live or to die. When you choose to die you commit a suicide. I don't care about your reasons because guess what, you are dead. You've chosen to die. Sacrifice is just a pretty word used to glorify your act of freaking killing yourself, used to distinguish you from those whose reasons to kill themselves were deemed lesser, but in the end you who jumped from the tower and Chloe who hanged herself in the bathroom are equal. Dead by their own choice.

Really, it's just natural selection at work, a test. Those who choose to die, die, those who choose to live, live. Martyrdom and suicide are for the weak, the strong endure, survive to pass on their genes.



Sure they were.

I think there's a pretty big difference between Chloe's death and Buffy's. You're ignoring a context that clearly matters. Dying to save someone else, someone you care about, or hell, even someone you don't, isn't "weak", it's compassionate and heroic. Buffy values the lives of her friends more than her own, just as Angel does when he goes to hell to save Darla or as Spike does when he sacrifices himself to save Buffy in "Chosen". That isn't a character indictment. Not at all. It says something incredibly powerful and good about their character.

Someone who kills themselves because they can't handle their problems and someone who sacrifices themselves to save another are very, very different. Chloe's death is deemed lesser because it was lesser. Why do you think just about every military force in civilized world awards medals of valor and bravery to those who gave up their lives to save others? It's the ultimate act of bravery.

 

[Icarium]

Are you honestly telling me that you think Buffy is the first Slayer in the history of the line to throw herself in the path of danger in order to save someone else's life - or the world?

No, I am telling you there is a world of difference between fighting a battle, even if the odds of survival are slim, and committing a suicide. I am sure some Slayers did commit suicide but usually they die in battle while doing their best to survive. So no, not every single Slayer who died while fighting evil committed a suicide. Might as well describe Kendra's death as suicide then. Would you?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Buffy would have been braver to just stand by and watch the world end?

She had a choice, a simple one. Let Dawn jump from the tower or outright kill her or commit a suicide. She chose to die. The strong chose to live, to survive against all odds. Buffy's the slayer. You know what the first rule of slaying is, don't you? Do not die.

braver

COWARD

Why do use those words? I never used them in my post, never said anything about courage or lack thereof. You are projecting.
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]

So if Dawn would have killed herself, then it would have also been suicide?

No. Suicide is a choice. Dawn has no choice to make, no matter what she does she dies. She jumps from the tower, she dies, she doesn't jump from the tower, she dies as well. No choice. No suicide.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Buffy values the lives of her friends more than her own

Yes, Buffy is a person who values her ideals over her own life. There's just one problem with that, ideals change but death cannot be undone and...Buffy changed her ideals.

Why do you think just about every military force in civilized world awards medals of valor and bravery to those who gave up their lives to save others?

Because they are the military. A military is a group of people paid to kill other people to uphold ideals of those who pay them. A necessary evil. You can't expect such an organization to value individual human life over abstract ideals. Also, heroism is glorified, revered and promoted because it is cost-effective. When one soldier kills himself and saves the lives of four other soldiers in the process the organization loses just one soldier as opposed to four. It's just economy.

It's the ultimate act of bravery

Once again, I did not negate that in my post. I did not even mention it.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I really don't get why everyone has started using the base meanings for things as their definition rather than counting the intentions or circumstances.

Technically your right she committed suicide, by taking her own life, but there is a meaning behind it, there is no meaning behind a suicide, Sacrifice is giving up your life for a greater purpose. The fact that Buffy committed "suicide" for a greater purpose, means it doesn't fit the definition of suicide, but fits in with sacrifice, calling it otherwise is just irrelevant semantics to make it fit your meaning.
If she'd done it in season 6 you could argue she did it both to save the world and to end her life, but that isn't the case in season 5.