Why the huge Spike hate?

[bespangeled]

In fairness, Spike isn't the only reason I dislike the seasons in question. But he is a major part of it. For me, my Buffy, the hero, and the show, died when she jumped off the tower in The Gift. But S6 especially and Spike's actions towards Buffy in that season I find really just appalling and I think the struggle many people who dislike Spike have in fandom is that S6 Spike is often perceived as tragically romantic and that can be very hard to reconcile.

Yeah - I think there is a fairly large group who resent that Buffy wasn't only changed, it was completely ruined by them. One thing to have a show cancelled and another to have it die a slow and messy death.

I do see Spike as both tragic and a romantic in the Victorian sense. I also see him as a complete sociopath - that is part of the tragedy to me. The guy has had one experience of "love" and it was demon love. Wishing to have human love, being attracted to the light and yet wanting to put it out. He is a classic sociopath by any standard - lacking in true empathy, obsessive, controlling, and completely blind to the damage he is doing to Buffy.

But I don't excuse Buffy from her own bad choices.

All of this was never Buffy before it went to UPN - it's like Mother Theresa pimping the kids for crack.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

I was preparing a big answer to this, but then the hellmouth opened up underneath me 😀

I will take that as a sign to steer clear I think, as a lot of this debate seems to have been about a more recent conflict of opinions, rather than the more friendly Spuffy and Bangel debates I remember from the past.

I will just say in my case that I did at times become too emotionally involved in the Spike character, identifying with some aspect of it that seemed to transcend the show and point towards a feature of humanity and the world in general. And when you are emotionally involved like that you become blinded to any counter arguments, and so to any negative aspects of the character. First time round watching I was just so caught up in wanting Spike to get the girl, living vicariously through the Spike character that I didn't see all the negative aspects of his character that developed in season 6, until the seeing red moment, but that is when he feels ashamed and goes off to get his soul. I blanked out all the other negative things in his character that led up to this during season 6, so I can see why others who did see this would then develop a dislike for Spike, based as much on the Spike fans perspective as anything else.

But then you have to remember, it was all part of the show, and it was all part of what season 6 was about. And season 6 was edgy in many ways, and he was an evil vampire.

That is me, too. I can like a character who I would hate in reality. Hannibal Lector is one helluva character, as is Moriarty, and even Crowley. Some people hate Spike's arc - I love it. Even though I see he is a sociopath and abusive - and evil still - I like to see him change and grow. I like to see Spike and Buffy's totally f*cked up relationship even while I can understand how some people are completely revolted by it.

---------- Post added at 05:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

Well, I'll just add my 11 cents that if you look at what happened with this thread, that people were asked why they didn't like Spike, and then when they answered, told basically that they were bashing Spike...you can see why many people are reluctant to give the pro-Spike POV a chance...

Then the other people get frustrated and annoyed, their opinion of Spike fans as a whole goes down, and we end up in a negativity spiral.

Who bashed whom? I was amazed how civil this thread has been!

 

[The Bronze]

I don't know, maybe it is but when I go season by season and consider his role in them and the impact he has, for me the show actually gets better if he is removed (especially S6 & S7.) Obviously for a Spike fan that is not going to be the case. But from where I am sitting, Spike is always getting in the way of the storytelling that I want to see, especially in the last 2/3 seasons.

That's fair enough. I just think he is quite a key player in the verse that's all. I might be a bit odd for a Spike fan in that I heavily favour the early seasons where Spike is less prominent. I just tend to see him having a positive effect on the weaker seasons rather than causing them to be weak with his presence.

 

[Doppelgang]

I do see Spike as both tragic and a romantic in the Victorian sense. I also see him as a complete sociopath - that is part of the tragedy to me. The guy has had one experience of "love" and it was demon love. Wishing to have human love, being attracted to the light and yet wanting to put it out. He is a classic sociopath by any standard - lacking in true empathy, obsessive, controlling, and completely blind to the damage he is doing to Buffy.

But I don't excuse Buffy from her own bad choices.

All of this was never Buffy before it went to UPN - it's like Mother Theresa pimping the kids for crack.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------



That is me, too. I can like a character who I would hate in reality. Hannibal Lector is one helluva character, as is Moriarty, and even Crowley. Some people hate Spike's arc - I love it. Even though I see he is a sociopath and abusive - and evil still - I like to see him change and grow. I like to see Spike and Buffy's totally f*cked up relationship even while I can understand how some people are completely revolted by it.

The First Novel I read as an adult was American Psycho 😱, I went straight for the dark stuff, I also liked reading the Hannibal Lector stories. I like dark characters who are dark in subtle, often conflicting, ways as it makes for an interesting and less predictable storyline. As you say, its the arc that is great, more so than the characters actions at times.

 

[bespangeled]

The First Novel I read as an adult was American Psycho 😱, I went straight for the dark stuff, I also liked reading the Hannibal Lector stories. I like dark characters who are dark in subtle, often conflicting, ways as it makes for an interesting and less predictable storyline. As you say, its the arc that is great, more so than the characters actions at times.

I love the dark characters - not just Spike but Faith, Wesley, Lilah, dark!Angel (wine cellar), Ripper. Dark!Willow isn't on long enough though I love some of her scenes. The interesting thing is that Buffy doesn't really seem to have a dark side (well, stabbing Faith....). Mostly it seems she only tortures herself.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Who bashed whom? I was amazed how civil this thread has been!

I'm saying the people who were posting why they hate/dislike Spike were being accused of persecuting/bashing Spike fans...

 

[janas]

I didn't want to participate in this discussion, because in this period I absolutely need to focus on what I love rather than what I don't love, and anyway I prefer to say "I hate this or that character" in discussions more structured and in contexts where I can do reference to situations and specific episodes. Here, however, I would have ended up making an endless list of points sterile "I hate Spike for..." disconnected however from their context, and for me this isn't funny. But I was very impressed from post by @Blaze, for a variety of reasons, including personal, and anyone who knows me, knows what I mean.

Thanks for your post Blaze, I'm with you 100% and I feel sick at the thought of how often we generalize when we talk about certain things, in this case we're talking about "real people". I hate Spike, but I don't hate Spike fans, actually I have a lot of friends who are Spike/Spuffy fans Italian and not. I often talk with them in chat and we can laugh at our "obsessions" on BTVS. Furthermore, the fact of being an Angel/Bangel fans for me isn't synonymous of absolute assurance of friendship. Sometimes I realize, for example, who don't always agree with the thought of some Bangel and I noticed that not always I have the same perception of Angel, when I talk with other Angel fans, or Buffy fans, Connor fans, Wesley fans, etc... and more than to love the same characters, in real life then we don't share much more.

So, I don't hate Spike fans, but also I happened to meet people less beautiful in the fandom. For years and years I go around forum and whenever bad things happen (and I mean really bad things), I mean every single time, there's always involved a fan Spike. But certainly I don't want to generalize, these people have names and surnames, and I have come to the conclusion that these people are "assholes" not because they are Spike fans, but because they are "assholes" in real life and they fail to relate in healthy way, and I'm talking of course about real people that I have had the misfortune to meet. I would just like to hone my ability to recognize them before things become unmanageable, but so far, unfortunately, I failed miserably.

Probably, in the past I have attended wrong forum, do you think that a girl had the nerve to tell me that I hate Spike because in my life I have had personal experiences with rape and so my perception of Spike was distorted. Nothing could be further from the truth, I've never had experiences like that of Buffy, but that doesn't mean that I'm not able to understand her moods and totally empathize with her.

As for BB, I immediately had the sense of "a place different from others." Every day I come here to read new posts, you are like a drug 😀, I'm getting BB-addicted and sometimes, as I read you, I can almost hear your voices, and I often have to invent stories to explain to my son why the hell I'm laughing sitting in front of the PC. @Black Eye Guy, I say to you, know that it's all your fault. 😛 😀

In addition, and now I'm serious, I want to thank @Kean for this.

Why give total strangers that sort of power over you?

Although she was referring to a different aspect of fandom, that sentence made me boggle of surprise (be overwhelmed?). You know what? Damn, it was exactly what was happening to me. I and only I was giving a lot of power to four stupid and I was allowing them to ruin my love for this fandom.

I know, I haven't spoken about Spike and I didn't say because I hate him, I can only say briefly that I hate what he represents and for now it's okay.

 

[ladydorotea]

I am generally in the same boat as many other folks who posted in this thread, mainly I do not want to go into long explaining of why ('the huge Spike hate'), there is. I know 'why', I understand 'why', I also, at this point and time of my fandom experience, find trying to explain 'why' to those who ask utterly pointless. Moreover, in my experience the only reason this question is ever being asked is to initiate yet another long ( and quite pointless) eulogy thread. So I have question of my own.

Why do you think any fan has to justify their negativity towards Spike in particular, to the point of it needing a separate thread?

Why don't we see any 'why do you hate X' threads popping out on this, or any other of the remaining 4 active BtVs/AtS forums? (substitute X for any other character but Spike)

Why anybody expressing negative feelings towards Spike on any other three verse major forums out there that are still active are likely to get expelled, but at the very least are likely to get so much negative karma, reputation, warnings etc, that they would want to leave rather than continue to express their honest opinion?

In general - why do Spike fans just cannot keep their boo-boo to themselves and feel this burning urge to ask the question of everybody who is the verse's fan but not a Spike fan ? And I am speaking from personal experience - I had met not one, not two, and not a dozen fans who just cannot get it, but cannot stop trying to push the envelope either. What is it that make you , Spike fans keep asking ? Can anybody explain to me ?

Myself being a die-hard fan of about three characters who are major targets of fan-hate (Angel, Giles, and Willow) I just cannot get it as to 'why' you have to try and jump into this dead horse beating game every few months and can never be content with simple 'because'. So - why ?

 

[bespangeled]

I'm saying the people who were posting why they hate/dislike Spike were being accused of persecuting/bashing Spike fans...

And I am wondering where you saw this happening. I see a pretty civil conversation with people expressing their opinions on all sides of the question, that's why I am wondering if I missed something.

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

I am generally in the same boat as many other folks who posted in this thread, mainly I do not want to go into long explaining of why ('the huge Spike hate'), there is. I know 'why', I understand 'why', I also, at this point and time of my fandom experience, find trying to explain 'why' to those who ask utterly pointless. Moreover, in my experience the only reason this question is ever being asked is to initiate yet another long ( and quite pointless) eulogy thread. So I have question of my own.

Why do you think any fan has to justify their negativity towards Spike in particular, to the point of it needing a separate thread?

Why don't we see any 'why do you hate X' threads popping out on this, or any other of the remaining 4 active BtVs/AtS forums? (substitute X for any other character but Spike)

Why anybody expressing negative feelings towards Spike on any other three verse major forums out there that are still active are likely to get expelled, but at the very least are likely to get so much negative karma, reputation, warnings etc, that they would want to leave rather than continue to express their honest opinion?

In general - why do Spike fans just cannot keep their boo-boo to themselves and feel this burning urge to ask the question of everybody who is the verse's fan but not a Spike fan ? And I am speaking from personal experience - I had met not one, not two, and not a dozen fans who just cannot get it, but cannot stop trying to push the envelope either. What is it that make you , Spike fans keep asking ? Can anybody explain to me ?

Myself being a die-hard fan of about three characters who are major targets of fan-hate (Angel, Giles, and Willow) I just cannot get it as to 'why' you have to try and jump into this dead horse beating game every few months and can never be content with simple 'because'. So - why ?

Ironically I was just about to post on the "why do you hate Cordelia in season 4" thread - and I have posted on the "why do you hate Riley" thread a few times.

I'm not asking anyone to justify negativity - I am honestly curious. I don't have any boo-boo, have never posted a thread like this before, and have not bashed anyone.

So why take the time to post in this thread if you really hate it? I see that you can't - or prefer not to - get beyond your own personal history, and that's fine. Don't give yourself an ulcer - just ignore it.

 

[ladydorotea]

I see that you can't - or prefer not to - get beyond your own personal history, and that's fine.

I think you've just answered your own question perfectly in two lines. You got presumptions, personal, and offensive with somebody you have not met, who have not done anything offensive to you as a person, and you completely not getting it as to 'why' mentioning somebody's personal history in context like this is offensive, and to imply that it defines them as a person and distorts their perception of a work of art - is even more so. And you are still wondering why Spike fans are often times generalized into a niche?

Don't give yourself an ulcer - just ignore it.

And did I mention ulcers, or any other potential diseases in my single post as related to, affecting you as a person? Don't think so. Still have questions about Spike fans being generally disliked ?

 

[bespangeled]

I think you've just answered your own question perfectly in two lines. You got presumptions, personal, and offensive with somebody you have not met, who have not done anything offensive to you as a person, and you completely not getting it as to 'why' mentioning somebody's personal history in context like this is offensive, and to imply that it defines them as a person and distorts their perception of a work of art - is even more so. And you are still wondering why Spike fans are often times generalized into a niche?

Sorry - most of what you said was about how you hate threads like this because of your own past experiences. Did I misunderstand that?

I thought I was just acknowledging your point of view. I really didn't mean to cast aspersions on you for feeling as you do, in any way.

We've talked about that a lot in the thread - how much the earlier fan wars have left strong feelings, and how much the perception of Spike fans has negatively impacted feelings about Spike. I've actually found it interesting and informative.

And did I mention ulcers, or any other potential diseases in my single post as related to, affecting you as a person? Don't think so. Still have questions about Spike fans being generally disliked ?

Okay - are you saying you dislike me because I expressed concern about you? Hmm - okay. Being ulcer prone, I do tend to associate strong feeling with churning stomach acid. I think you're reading more into this than I said, but YMMV.

One more thing - this thread was not about disliking Spike fans, though that has come into it.

 

[Taake]

Yes, lets remember (all of us) that his about the character Spike and not the Spike fans in themselves. There's no need for the latter to be in the discussion at all.

🙂

 

[janas]

One more thing - this thread was not about disliking Spike fans, though that has come into it.

Maybe I read it wrong or I misunderstood, but I thought that talking about Spuffy/Spike fans was one of the questions from the initial post of this thread. If this's the case, then I completely lost the point.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

And I am wondering where you saw this happening. I see a pretty civil conversation with people expressing their opinions on all sides of the question, that's why I am wondering if I missed something.

Well by page three, we were being told we were bashing a ship/character. All we'd done was answer the question asked, and we're being accused of bashing.

One more thing - this thread was not about disliking Spike fans, though that has come into it.

The thing, Spike fans are an element of it. If I dont like discussing Spike becasue I know eventually someone is gonna come tearing into the yelling "how dare you", thats all part of not liking the character.

I understand what Blaze meant by not labeling all Spike fans the same, I've had absolutely normal discussions with Spike fans. Myself and [MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] had a long discussion a while back that didn't get hostile or personal. That is extremely rare, it isn't often a discussion can go on for more than a few posts without it falling apart.
I dont generalise in my posts about Spike, I always say "(some) Spike fans" as I know it doesn't apply to them all, it is difficult when the main identifier about the person is that they are a Spike fan.
It's not even like you can call them an extreamist fan, as there are rational extremist fans, whenever I mention Spike fans the only ones I'm ever talking about are the irrational ones.

One part I really liked about your excellent post @Blaze was acknowledgement of the more irrational side of Spike fans. That doesn't happen often. We've seen members absolutely go batshit insane about a topic and still the only person challenging them is a not-Spike fan, that can be incredibly annoying. I've seen that side of Angel fans, but I've also questioned it in threads.


I also dont like the whole "we'll all agree to disagree" or "we can't all see it one way" thread enders, in this thread, it wasn't a cycle of familiar fan behaviour that threw it off, one side answered a question that was asked and certain people on the other side accused of tear apart a character - thats one sided, a very clear starting point.
For me that is consistent, any thread I'm in I dont get to comment my feeling about Spike without being called a hater or whatever, yet I can go into another thread and say why I dislike anyone else and I wont get jumped on.

Just as an example there is a what do you hate about Angel thread out there, but it was started by a Spike fan wasn't happy with the amount of negative attention Spike was getting, so wanted to bring Angel into it, and actually stated that in the opening post.
This thread was started by a Spike fan who wanted to understand why people didn't like Spike.

For whatever reason people get offended that I dont like Spike, but no one cares that I dont like ANY other character. Like @Kean said, if you hate Angel or Willow, I dont have to ask you to explain it to me, I can understand why you do, there are many reasons too, and I dont feel the need to drag those reason out of another person.

 

[bespangeled]

Maybe I read it wrong or I misunderstood, but I thought that talking about Spuffy/Spike fans was one of the questions from the initial post of this thread. If this's the case, then I completely lost the point.

I did start with Spuffy and Bangel, but then it was pointed out that that really isn't the paradigm we want. So I changed it to Spike haters and Spike fans regardless of ships. The first few letters covered that.

The question is why Spike is so amazingly divisive even after all these years. So far a lot is due to a loony fringe of fans, and some executive decisions by the networks as well as the production staff. And that there some really serious scars left over from the shipping wars.

---------- Post added at 05:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------

Well by page three, we were being told we were bashing a ship/character. All we'd done was answer the question asked, and we're being accused of bashing.

That seems very mild. The irony is that so many who are upset that they are being accused, then go on to accuse. Another circular conversation - no one listens or changes.

The thing, Spike fans are an element of it. If I dont like discussing Spike becasue I know eventually someone is gonna come tearing into the yelling "how dare you", thats all part of not liking the character.

I understand what Blaze meant by not labeling all Spike fans the same, I've had absolutely normal discussions with Spike fans. Myself and [MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] had a long discussion a while back that didn't get hostile or personal. That is extremely rare, it isn't often a discussion can go on for more than a few posts without it falling apart.

I dont generalise in my posts about Spike, I always say "(some) Spike fans" as I know it doesn't apply to them all, it is difficult when the main identifier about the person is that they are a Spike fan.

It's not even like you can call them an extreamist fan, as there are rational extremist fans, whenever I mention Spike fans the only ones I'm ever talking about are the irrational ones.

One part I really liked about your excellent post @Blaze was acknowledgement of the more irrational side of Spike fans. That doesn't happen often. We've seen members absolutely go batshit insane about a topic and still the only person challenging them is a not-Spike fan, that can be incredibly annoying. I've seen that side of Angel fans, but I've also questioned it in threads.


I also dont like the whole"we'll all agree to disagree" or "we can't all see it one way" thread enders, in this thread, it wasn't a cycle of familiar fan behaviour that threw it off, one side answered a question that was asked and certain people on the other side accused of tear apart a character - thats one sided, a very clear starting point.
For me that is consistent, any thread I'm in I dont get to comment my feeling about Spike without being called a hater or whatever, yet I can go into another thread and say why I dislike anyone else and I wont get jumped on.

Just as an example there is a what do you hate about Angel thread out there, but it was started by a Spike fan wasn't happy with the amount of negative attention Spike was getting, so wanted to bring Angel into it, and actually stated that in the opening post.

This thread was started by a Spike fan who wanted to understand why people didn't like Spike.

For whatever reason people get offended that I dont like Spike, but no one cares that I dont like ANY other character. Like @Kean said, if you hate Angel or Willow, I dont have to ask you to explain it to me, I can understand why you do, there are many reasons too, and I dont feel the need to drag those reason out of another person.

Trust me, I am in no way offended. I am unenlightened - but I will put you in the dislike Spike fans category. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now one person has made some very stronger comments about me, my motives, and my intent. In fact, two people have now. The remarks were personal in nature, aimed at me and not my opinions, and presuming to know my motives and intent. To me that is bashing - it is a personal attack. I'm sorry you missed that part because there was not only one side that participated in accusations and insinuations as you thought.

Sometimes when you are anticipating one behavior because you are involved in a cycle it's hard to notice that you really are part of that cycle. You've said you would love to see a Spike fan acknowledging the loony fringe. I did that, very early on in fact. I'm not sure if you've had time to read the whole thread. You complain that you were called a hater - I don't recall that happening at all. Do you have a link to that exchange?

The vast majority of the past 5 pages has been civil discourse about a touchy subject. I'd like to point out that there are current threads about why people hate Riley, and why all the negative feelings toward Cordelia in season 4 of ATS. So, no, Spike isn't the only subject of such threads. There are other similar threads not current that touch on other characters, so claiming this is only a Spike phenomena is wrong, even on this board.

I don't know why you have a need to point out that I am a Spike fan - does that make my intent less than honourable or trustworthy? I didn't hide the fact, in fact I announced it in the OP, so I'm not sure why it bears repeating. The repetition does feel accusatory - as if you would have no trouble if I was an Angel fan who started this thread. Actually, I am an Angel fan - I ship Spangel.

As for the ""we'll all agree to disagree" or "we can't all see it one way" - what other ending would you prefer. Does everyone have to completely agree with each other? Reality is seldom that kind - and trying to force it results in stifling the same free expression that makes the board work so well.

Finally - whenever I mention Spike fans the only ones I'm ever talking about are the irrational ones. That's kind of like me saying whenever I talk about Christians I mean Wesboro Baptist church. As a tactic that should keep Spike fans away. As far as I'm concerned, that's a pity. I prefer to fight to understand - rather than try to win.

 

[Silverspike]

I did start with Spuffy and Bangel, but then it was pointed out that that really isn't the paradigm we want. So I changed it to Spike haters and Spike fans regardless of ships. The first few letters covered that.

The question is why Spike is so amazingly divisive even after all these years. So far a lot is due to a loony fringe of fans, and some executive decisions by the networks as well as the production staff. And that there some really serious scars left over from the shipping wars.

---------- Post added at 05:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 AM ----------



That seems very mild. The irony is that so many who are upset that they are being accused, then go on to accuse. Another circular conversation - no one listens or changes.






Trust me, I am in no way offended. I am unenlightened - but I will put you in the dislike Spike fans category. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now one person has made some very stronger comments about me, my motives, and my intent. In fact, two people have now. The remarks were personal in nature, aimed at me and not my opinions, and presuming to know my motives and intent. To me that is bashing - it is a personal attack. I'm sorry you missed that part because there was not only one side that participated in accusations and insinuations as you thought.

Sometimes when you are anticipating one behavior because you are involved in a cycle it's hard to notice that you really are part of that cycle. You've said you would love to see a Spike fan acknowledging the loony fringe. I did that, very early on in fact. I'm not sure if you've had time to read the whole thread. You complain that you were called a hater - I don't recall that happening at all. Do you have a link to that exchange?

The vast majority of the past 5 pages has been civil discourse about a touchy subject. I'd like to point out that there are current threads about why people hate Riley, and why all the negative feelings toward Cordelia in season 4 of ATS. So, no, Spike isn't the only subject of such threads. There are other similar threads not current that touch on other characters, so claiming this is only a Spike phenomena is wrong, even on this board.

I don't know why you have a need to point out that I am a Spike fan - does that make my intent less than honourable or trustworthy? I didn't hide the fact, in fact I announced it in the OP, so I'm not sure why it bears repeating. The repetition does feel accusatory - as if you would have no trouble if I was an Angel fan who started this thread. Actually, I am an Angel fan - I ship Spangel.

As for the ""we'll all agree to disagree" or "we can't all see it one way" - what other ending would you prefer. Does everyone have to completely agree with each other? Reality is seldom that kind - and trying to force it results in stifling the same free expression that makes the board work so well.

Finally - whenever I mention Spike fans the only ones I'm ever talking about are the irrational ones. That's kind of like me saying whenever I talk about Christians I mean Wesboro Baptist church. As a tactic that should keep Spike fans away. As far as I'm concerned, that's a pity. I prefer to fight to understand - rather than try to win.

Excellent post and well put. 🙂

 

[Buffy Summers]

And this would be the point where everyone who is not a huge Spike fan leaves the discussion...

 

[ladydorotea]

The question is why Spike is so amazingly divisive even after all these years.

Actually, for me the question is more of a why would anybody be surprised over Spike being 'amazingly divisive' ? One would think that on-screen attempted rape used as a plot device would be answer enough. The show had plenty of controversial and violent scenes, but Spike was the only character that was written to perpetrate a sexual attack on the main heroine. If this is not a reason enough for being a 'divisive character' than what is ?

So far a lot is due to a loony fringe of fans, and some executive decisions by the networks as well as the production staff. And that there some really serious scars left over from the shipping wars.

And here you go with generalizing the answer again, and acting as every mama-bear-Spike-fan out there ever does. It is all due to bad bad fans ( of both flavors) out there who vilified poor character who otherwise would have been universally adored and supported despite the AR and all that followed.

And this is exactly what every thread started to 'explore' Spike divisiveness always boils down to - somebody needing to prove one more time that the 'majority' of fandom luvrs him and if not for 'haters' who are irrational and divisive the blond wonder would be beloved of all.

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------

And this would be the point where everyone who is not a huge Spike fan leaves the discussion...

Nuh, I will have my last shot.

 

[white avenger]

And this would be the point where everyone who is not a huge Spike fan leaves the discussion...

(Sorry for quoting you here, since I know that you don't like it, but...)

Why is it, when I suggested recently that someone should step back and take a break from the debate, that I was told that my suggestion was "not cool," but your suggestion doesn't fall under the same category?

 

[Buffy Summers]

Well, that wasn't what I was saying, so...

Also I didn't tell you it wasn't cool...why wouldn't it be cool? To be honest, I can't even find what you're talking about in the thread.

(Also, I don't have a problem being quoted. I have a problem when people use the tagging thing to page me to a thread. 🙂)

 

[The Bronze]

The show had plenty of controversial and violent scenes, but Spike was the only character that was written to perpetrate a sexual attack on the main heroine. If this is not a reason enough for being a 'divisive character' than what is ?

I have found this thread an interesting read. It's always good to know why people like certain things and not others. I would point out that this statement isn't actually true though. Off the top of my head there are at least 3 other episodes where someone sexually attacks Buffy - The Pack, Reptile Boy and Go Fish. Spike isn't in any of them.