Why the Spike hate?

[The Unspoken]

But that's the thing, I just don't buy it. I think he's feeling sorry, yes, but mostly for himself rather than others, like his victims.



But you're definitely right about that. 😉



It just boils down to personal opinion. Some people liked it, some didn't. That's just the way it is. You'll have to take our word for it 😉



I didn't like Spike because he was a scary villain, he was a good villain. An entertaining one, who doesn't have a motive, like Angelus did, but simply does it for the sake of being evil and having fun. I still think that was fantastic, it made him a loose cannon. As evidenced at the end of season 2.



I don't think he became a hero, that's just it. Everything he did, he did for selfish reasons. Even getting his soul back, he did it because he ultimately wanted to get Buffy to like him (again). Sacrificing himself in Chosen? He wanted to go out being remembered as a hero, wanted Buffy to love him, not because it was the right thing to do. That isn't heroic at all. It's petty and selfish.

Well, at least that's my take on it. You, obviously, see it quite differently 😉

So saving countless lives for selfish reasons is a bad thing? (I don't believe it to be for selfish reasons myself, but I'm following your reasoning here.)
Also, how could he possibly benefit from his sacrifice in 'Chosen' if he was you know...DEAD? Why would he take care of Dawn when Buffy was dead and couldn't know about it?

 

[Username]

I don't hate spike, I just don't like him. Sometimes he's funny but mostly I think he's ridiculous and it really annoyed me that Buffy didn't stake him in season 4, he even tried to kill himself and still they wouldn't do it instead everbody's all "oh no poor Spikey he's so harmless now it would be wrong to kill him" wtf!
A lot of people seem to think Spike is attractive, but I don't see it.. the hair is gross, the clothes, he wears his pants way to high up - pull them down a bit grampa, the way he sometimes sticks his tongue under his bottom lip makes me cringe!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Kenolite corrected me.. I may have to rethink position based on Season 8 information.

 

[Taake]

But that's the thing, I just don't buy it. I think he's feeling sorry, yes, but mostly for himself rather than others, like his victims.



I didn't like Spike because he was a scary villain, he was a good villain. An entertaining one, who doesn't have a motive, like Angelus did, but simply does it for the sake of being evil and having fun. I still think that was fantastic, it made him a loose cannon. As evidenced at the end of season 2.



I don't think he became a hero, that's just it. Everything he did, he did for selfish reasons. Even getting his soul back, he did it because he ultimately wanted to get Buffy to like him (again). Sacrificing himself in Chosen? He wanted to go out being remembered as a hero, wanted Buffy to love him, not because it was the right thing to do. That isn't heroic at all. It's petty and selfish.

I'm agreeing with you all over the place Mumrik 😀

Personally I used to love Spike. When he came on the scene in s2 he became one of my favorites, because he was entertaining, snarky, very devil-may-care. I adored his character all through the series airing (with the exception of season 5 where I always just found him an annoying and disturbing little Cry-Buffy so to speak)

However since coming here and re-watching the show I find that I have completely lost the warmth I had for his character . Yesterday I tried to watch some season 7 eps and Spike opening his mouth just made me roll my eyes and wish for the mute button. I did found him funnier on Angel s5 when watching that but it continues to disturb me that he keeps wearing his leather duster after all that's happened.

Re-viewing the show has made me look at him in a new light and most of the things I feel for him are stated by Mumrik above.


Also, to me, a lot of the defense I see Spike getting is rather blue-eyed in my opinion and has irritated me to an extent of starting to dislike the character further. (Also the constant comparing between him and Angel... very tiresome. I look upon them as different characters and I don't need to compare every aspect of their personalities)
Perhaps silly but there you go. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Kenolite? Really?

Well, I figured none would remember you as Cordy as that lasted, what, a whole day before I goaded you into changing it back....

 

[Kean]

Well, I figured none would remember you as Cordy as that lasted, what, a whole day before I goaded you into changing it back....

It wasn't just you. It was everyone bar Teuse de Vampires. LOL

Any this is OT and I'm out of here. 😀

 

[Kana]

I liked Spike as a villain. He was fantastic in season 2 and at least still funny in season 4, but this is where it went downhill. He got so very annoying from the point on he fell in love with Buffy.

Not that I'm totally agreeing or disagreeing but what was it about his character you didn't like?

Then there was Seeing Red (which I won't go into), after which I thought I could never like the character again and season 7 didn't help to change my opinion.

Again can I ask why this is? This may sound like a strange question, but in the interest of fairness why not blame Angel for the horrible things he did without a soul? I addressed this in another thread and I think it has to do with the emotional aspect of the scene. This is why some hate him during and other empathize with him afterwards. Either way, I don't judge him for his soulless actions.

He doesn't seem to feel any remorse and even when he claims he's sorry, I don't believe him and he's become too ... pathetic to like for being gleefully evil-ish.

There are things I like about his attitude and other things I don't. I didn't like his attitude towards Nikki. Even if he's not responsible, you could at least show respect by not wearing the jacket. As for the guilt in general though I don't mind him not dwelling on it. He's a live in the now sort of bloke anyway, so while I relate more to Angel, I don't chatise him for not dwelling in the past.

I certainly don't like him because I think he is, was or became a good person. He was a good villain character, but not a good hero character. Not even an anti-hero. I did buy him as an anti-villain, however. I just think he wasn't handled well.

Again, is the particular reason for this? Why can't he be a hero? Is there a specific criteria that he doesn't fulfil?

Also, I think a lot of Spike fans like him (not purely, of course, but it factors into it) because he's sexy and are more willing to give him a free pass because of that fact. I don't think he's sexy. At all.

I think how a character charms us does factor into it, whether it's consciously or not. I'm more forgiving of Angel in general because I relate to him as a person. I'd be less forgiving if I simply didn't identify with a character's personality at all.

 

[sosa lola]

Spike is my second favorite character after Xander, because like Xander, he's extremely flawed.

Even though I'm a huge Xander fan, I do understand why a lot of fans hate him. Xander's flaws probably touched a very sensitive issue they have and made them unable to like him. Spike, like Xander, has plenty of flaws, and they obviously ticked off some fans too much they couldn't like his character at all.

Some Spike flaws a lot of fans hate:

His creepy behavior once he started to fall in love with Buffy: Spike proved to be a stalker, he goes to Buffy's bedroom uninvited and steals her underwear and clothes. He sniffs them. That's a major icky factor.

His jealousy: He starts playing with Riley's mind, points Buffy to the vamp-whore house just to break her and Riley up.

His inablity to take no as an answer: Buffy stated that she didn't want anything to do with him plenty of time, and it's not enough. Spike wanted to force her to love him despite her refusal. He even chained her for it.

Telling Wood that his mother didn't love him: Spike has issues with his mother and he's dumping his issues on Wood. Not to mention wearing Wood's death mother's jacket as a trophy. That's so insensitive and such a jerk move.

Not telling Buffy he was back from the dead: He should have let her know instead of leaving her wallowing in sorrow.


Other fans hate Spike for different things. For what his character represents. Reasons that aren't related to Spike's personality:

The badboy trope: Badboy loves the girl, badboy changes for the girl, therefore, girl must fall in love with former badboy or else she's a bitch.

The show became the Spike Show: Spike gets all the cool storylines, Spike is always right, Spike is the only one Buffy can trust, Spike is the best dresser, best fighter, best singer, best lover, best friend, he's good at everything. He's such a saint.

Spike gets all Angel's storylines: Spike falls in love with Buffy, Spike gets a soul, Spike wants the shanshu.

 

[Nikita]

Again can I ask why this is? This may sound like a strange question, but in the interest of fairness why not blame Angel for the horrible things he did without a soul? I addressed this in another thread and I think it has to do with the emotional aspect of the scene. This is why some hate him during and other empathize with him afterwards. Either way, I don't judge him for his soulless actions.

This is one of the things that annoys me the most about people who talk well about Spike. Spike was already around soulled people and had worked at being good for 2 years before he tried to rape Buffy. Angelus was no where near soulled people other than the people he killed, you can't put the two in the same league, atleast not at the point of their lives they were at. I think it's asinine to put the two in the same league tbh. I'm trailing off but my point is that Angel was not to blame for the things he did without a soul, but Spike WAS, atleast in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 AM ----------

zobothehobo agrees: That's the biggest double standard I've ever seen.

You're probably not seeing it the way I'm seeing it. Spike had been in the human word, surrounded by humans for so long and was having to act the same as humans do. He had a lot more empathy then Angel would've, even if he was soul-less.

For example, you can't blame Angel for Angelus' murderings and you can't blame Spike for Spike's murderings 100 years ago, HOWEVER, if he was to murder people in S5 and S6 I believe you can blame him for that, because he was closer to having a soul then Angelus ever was.

^ that's basically my point and I'm sorry if you disagree but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[zobothehobo]

You're probably not seeing it the way I'm seeing it. Spike had been in the human word, surrounded by humans for so long and was having to act the same as humans do. He had a lot more empathy then Angel would've, even if he was soul-less.
For example, you can't blame Angel for Angelus' murderings and you can't blame Spike for Spike's murderings 100 years ago, HOWEVER, if he was to murder people in S5 and S6 I believe you can blame him for that, because he was closer to having a soul then Angelus ever was.

^ that's basically my point and I'm sorry if you disagree but we will have to agree to disagree.

I get it... I see what you're saying. But I still don't understand. I mean Spike being closer to having a soul as a soulless vampire doesn't change the fact he didn't have a soul. It's like this: I almost failed out of high school. I had to beg the principal to let me graduate. I did better senior year than I had done freshman to junior year but that didn't change the fact I failed.

 

[Kana]

Ok we have to address this issue, as for what Zoe said, yes! If we are to place importance on the soul then it factors into how we judge them. Arguably Angelus had similar socialization in terms of being in love and being around humans, both times he was desoulled, now by Buffheaven's logic Angelus shouldn't be as bad as he was, but he was! So socialization, imo has little to do with it. The closest we can get to that would be saying that the chip is causing Spike's behaviour to change. This is possible but, it's still uncertain and Spike himself seems unsure. That's why I think it's safer not to judge by human standards at all (maybe standards is the wrong word but you get my meaning).

And to be clear I'm not glorifying him though. The not judging works both ways, I'm just trying to be fair. Also I do think emotion play into it as well. The AR is harrowing to watch and because of the nature of the subject when people don't blame him, it naturally arouses anger.

 

[The Unspoken]

I still don't see why the opinion of some fans should affect anyone's enjoyment (or lack thereof) of Spike's character. The people on the show that interact with souled Spike don't adhere to the strict souled/unsouled dichotomy. When the characters find out that Spike has a soul, it certainly isn't hugs and puppies. Spike doesn't use the soul as an excuse for the attempted rape. So there's something for everyone, so to speak.

 

[Flannen]

I get it... I see what you're saying. But I still don't understand. I mean Spike being closer to having a soul as a soulless vampire doesn't change the fact he didn't have a soul. It's like this: I almost failed out of high school. I had to beg the principal to let me graduate. I did better senior year than I had done freshman to junior year but that didn't change the fact I failed.

Will you ever understand though? I mean, like you said he's your favourite character. It's incredibly unlikely that you're going to see why we don't like him. I don't understand the hatred for Angel, and I know I never will because I interpret his character in a different way to those that dislike him (even those who are united in their dislike may interpret him differently).

I may be back to share why I don't like Spike, but the thing with these threads sometimes is that, we're invited to share and then just get bashed...which is never fun lol So while I would like to explain why I despise Spike, I don't think it'll help you to understand it any more. It'll just cause people to want to try and change my mind (which is so not happening, btw 😛) and tell me how I've misinterpreted him and that makes me an angry bunny.

 

[EvilBuffy]

Will you ever understand though? I mean, like you said he's your favourite character. It's incredibly unlikely that you're going to see why we don't like him. I don't understand the hatred for Angel, and I know I never will because I interpret his character in a different way to those that dislike him (even those who are united in their dislike may interpret him differently).

I agree with this. I don't really see how people explaining why they don't like Spike benefits anything. It's as simple as some people like cheese, some don't. Everyone has different tastes in characters. I know I personally don't exactly understand why people don't like Spike, however I understand why I dislike Angel. If you swap the sides, I'm sure it's the same. (Even more than sure because of the post I quoted lol.)

Sorry, I just find this thread kind of pointless because all it's going to do is start yet another 'Spike vs. Angel' debate and there's plenty of those already. Either that or a thread for charcter bashing. Both are getting pretty tired.

 

[Kana]

I still don't see why the opinion of some fans should affect anyone's enjoyment (or lack thereof) of Spike's character.

I'm not saying it should, but sometimes it does.

The people on the show that interact with souled Spike don't adhere to the strict souled/unsouled dichotomy. When the characters find out that Spike has a soul, it certainly isn't hugs and puppies. Spike doesn't use the soul as an excuse for the attempted rape. So there's something for everyone, so to speak.

Regardless of how the characters judge him, I can still judge him differently. I do think emotion factors into both for the fans and the characters. I try to at least judge the chracters as fairly as I can but I have to acknowledge subject matter as well. I don't doubt Spike would breeze past it due to his promixty to the action, but it doesn't mean I have to judge him in the way I would a being with a human soul.

 

[zobothehobo]

And for the record... I hate Spike vs. Angel debates. They're annoying. They're two different characters. Very different characters. I don't think you can compare the two just like I don't think you can compare Faith and Buffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

There's so much I want to comment on, but I'll just say this. 🙂 For me, I don't mind if some people hate Spike. I don't get and don't understand it, but some people think that way about me when I say I hate Riley. So, it works both ways, lol! 😛

I also don't get the argument that Spike was selfish and as such, wasn't a hero after sacrificing himself in "Chosen." Please tell me what would make Spike a hero then if that scene doesn't qualify because I hardly see s7 Spike as selfish.

But, the main thing I don't get is when people say they don't like a character anymore because of the fans or reading things on forums. I always like reading different interpretations of things, different ways of looking at characters, but at the end of the day, I usually stand by my own thoughts and opinions. Maybe I'm just not easily persuadable 😀

---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Also, I think a lot of Spike fans like him (not purely, of course, but it factors into it) because he's sexy and are more willing to give him a free pass because of that fact. I don't think he's sexy. At all.

In my case, no way. I do think Spike is super sexy, but that doesn't mean I automatically like him or give him a free pass. I think Riley is incredibly hot and sexy, but I hate him with a fiery passion. So, the sex factor doesn't play a huge role on my opinion of liking a character or not. It just makes it easy on the eyes, lol! 😀

 

[Flannen]

I also don't get the argument that Spike was selfish and as such, wasn't a hero after sacrificing himself in "Chosen." Please tell me what would make Spike a hero then if that scene doesn't qualify because I hardly see s7 Spike as selfish.

I can appreciate that you don't agree with it or understand it but this is where my issue lies with threads like these: why should we have to face questions like this? And feel like we have to explain even further for our feelings to be valid? I don't mean this in a mean way at all, just pointing out why I'm really hesitant to post what I think. 🙁

 

[Icarium]

Why I hate Spike? Gee, I don't know? Maybe because he hijacked my favourite show and the writers' attempt to keep him around was a primary cause for the show's downfall? Or because he turned the mythos of the show upside down? Or is it because he made everyone look worse for not staking him? Or maybe because he is a Draco in Leather Pants? Or because he is a hypocritical bully and poser? Or because James Marsters put the "o" in overacting? Or his extremely annoying hardcore fans who would lead you to believe he is never guilty about anything ever? Damn, it's so hard to choose!

 

[StarSlayer]

^With James' "over-acting," you have to remember that he was a theater actor first. They tend to act "bigger" because they were trained to act on stage. I don't think James ever over-acted (I've seen so many others actually over-act to believe so), but I think his acting for TV got better with each season, and his accent especially.