Why the Spike hate?

[zobothehobo]

What I find is that those who didn't watch from the original airings of the ealier episodes are more for Spike/Spuffy. Fangirl hype (that's what I call it, hope no one is offended but I think evering understands what I mean by those words) doesn't help me in liking a character but it didn't ignite anything that wasn't already there for me.

I think it might have to do with watching Buffy season 2 as it aired not knowing what would happen now that Angel is dead, not knowing he'd get a spin-off, not knowing there'd be another vampire for Buffy to engage with. Watching the show in DVD you know there are 7 seasons with a blonde guy on the cover whom most people, even if you aren't a fan, recognize as Spike the vampire. This fandom has given me the opinion that watching a show as it airs is a completely different one than watching it on DVD with no interruptions or suspense.

I didn't watch on the DVDs. I watched on the internet in some not so legit places. I had no idea Spike would be coming back after season 2. I knew Angel had a spin-off. But I had no idea Spike would play the role he did. I was so glad and thankful because from the second I first saw him in School Hard, I knew there was something special about Spike that I loved.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Forgive me because this is the only part of the fandom I've ever been in... do a lot of Spike fans in the fandom only like Spike because James is hot? That's a shallow obnoxious reason to like Spike IMO.

Maybe some of us Spike fans are just more vocal about that part sometimes. I'd suggest to people who have a big problem with the "creaming fangirls" (okay, that was gross to type) to legitimately ask why they love Spike so much and I'm sure they'd offer up some excellent reasons. Can think of a few myself, lol. The only other objection I have to the fangirls thing is that...Spike's pretty popular among men too. Most fans like him, in fact, regardless of gender. /shrug

 

[soulunsung]

Maybe some of us Spike fans are just more vocal about that part sometimes. I'd suggest to people who have a big problem with the "creaming fangirls" (okay, that was gross to type) to legitimately ask why they love Spike so much and I'm sure they'd offer up some excellent reasons. Can think of a few myself, lol. The only other objection I have to the fangirls thing is that...Spike's pretty popular among men too. Most fans like him, in fact, regardless of gender. /shrug

Since it wouldn't let me rep you, I have this to say: "lol. that was gross to read." 😉

Eh, I'm just curious...when did we start sexualizing this thread?! Right about the time I mentioned Spike was sexy?! lol. Because, he is, ya know...sexy! :lick:

 

[Flannen]

If you tell me you don't like Spike because of that "one scene" in Seeing Red,then I can understand that. If you tell me that you don't like him, because he's arrogant, impulsive, evil, among other things then I can kind of get that too. But telling me that you don't like just because you don't like him or making it seem as those of us who are genuinely curious as to why people dislike him and would like to know why honestly feel bad bad for even asking in the first place is another thing I kind of don't like.

I mean if you don't want to share because you're afraid someone might try and change your mind, that's fine. You don't have to, but don't make someone else feel bad for asking the question.

This is kind of my case in point. As some of you seem offended by my, and maybe some others hesitation to post, I figured I'd explain it from my (our) side a bit better. As far as I'm aware no one has made anyone feel bad for asking questions. Apologies if that is how you took what I said but it wasn't my intention. When zobo said she felt bad, I told her to stop being silly and it wasn't anything specific about anyone.

The fact that in this post you've already laid out the reasons why it is and isn't to okay to dislike Spike puts me right off posting in this thread. I can dislike Spike for whatever reason I wish but I'm hesitant to post that because if it doesn't fit in with what Spike fans think is okay to dislike, its going to get jumped on. It really has nothing to do with being scared of changing my mind lol, if only it was.

It cut my rep off. I would genuinely like to understand my fellow Buffy fans and their differing opinions. That's why I come on this website. You don't have to answer the question if you don't want to but I feel like people hate me for posting this. But I just want to try to understand.

Zobo, you should know that this really isn't the case. I said that to you myself. You said in a karma comment that you feel like this thread has been minsunderstood. For a lot of us this really isn't the case. What it is a case of is knowing how these threads have turned out in the past. I saw this thread and was quite happy to head on in, until several of the opening posts were pro-Spike; its makes me hesitate. I want to discuss why I don't like Spike in a thread like this, not have to defend my opinions left, right and centre which is more than likely what would/will happen so I've not shared yet.

I know some of you are only curious and that's great, I appreciate that but in the past it hasn't gone down like that. I still stand by the fact that no matter what we say, Spike fans are not going to understand. Anyway, no one should feel bad about it but I feel like I (we whatever lol) have also been misunderstood so wanted to explain myself a bit further. 🙂

 

[soulunsung]

This is kind of my case in point. As some of you seem offended by my, and maybe some others hesitation to post, I figured I'd explain it from my (our) side a bit better. As far as I'm aware no one has made anyone feel bad for asking questions. Apologies if that is how you took what I said but it wasn't my intention. When zobo said she felt bad, I told her to stop being silly and it wasn't anything specific about anyone.

The fact that in this post you've already laid out the reasons why it is and isn't to okay to dislike Spike puts me right off posting in this thread. I can dislike Spike for whatever reason I wish but I'm hesitant to post that because if it doesn't fit in with what Spike fans think is okay to dislike, its going to get jumped on. It really has nothing to do with being scared of changing my mind lol, if only it was.

Okay, first things first, I would like to clear something up a little bit. I hadn't meant to lay out the reasons why it is or isn't okay to dislike Spike, all I was doing was listing off a few examples of reasons why, to be honest. So, I do apologize if I wasn't as clear about that as I was hoping to be.

Fact is, you're probably right about one thing you've said, in the fact that most Spike fans probably won't ever really understand why some of the rest of the "collective and general you" don't really like Spike and that's fine. Because, some probably feel the same way about Angel and maybe they don't.

I'm not going to jump on anyone for not liking Spike. What I don't really care for, is when people say I don't like him end of story, and just leave it at that as if that in itself is a good enough reason. And maybe it is for them, but when I'm on a board filled with discussion threads, I'd actually like to know why. Which is why I said, "if you told me it was because of his behavior with Buffy in Seeing Red," then I could understand that.

And like I told ProphecyGirl in a post before this one, it's reasons like "I don't like Spike because of the face he wears" or "because I don't find JM attractive," which are two arguments for not liking him that I've heard in the past that really bug me the most, because then it stops being about the character and becomes about the actor. Anyway, I digress. I don't mean for you or anyone else to feel like they have to defend themselves as to why they dislike this character, but I also don't like the fact that we have to defend ourselves for wanting to discuss why some don't like Spike.

I think both sides have been a bit misunderstood and I may not have been clear enough in what I was saying. So, I'll again apologize if you feel like I laid out reasons for disliking Spike, because I wasn't. I was just offering examples of reasons.

 

[zobothehobo]

xaphania agrees: I don't think this is how it is. But I think this is the way it's perceived, and it annoys me so much. It undermines us, you know? That's one thing that infuriates me.

That annoys me too! As a Spike fan, I like him because of what I see. I like him because of who he is. He is me... very much me. And I love him for that. He makes mistakes but he's very me about them. Yes, he's good looking but there is WAY more to the character than that.

 

[Flannen]

Ah okay, I get ya!

For me it's just a personal thing and I guess kinda selfish in some ways. I'd like to discuss why I don't like Spike and why others don't like Spike as opposed to why I should like Spike? Does that make sense? If it doesn't, forgive me, I've just woken up 😛 That's kind of what I meant with being hesitant after the pro-Spike posts. Now we've cleared things up I'd feel more up for posting my reasons but still don't think it would change anyone's mind and I don't want to. I probably will post but I wouldn't wish a sleepy Flannen post that tries to make sense of things on anyone! 🙂

 

[soulunsung]

Ah okay, I get ya!

For me it's just a personal thing and I guess kinda selfish in some ways. I'd like to discuss why I don't like Spike and why others don't like Spike as opposed to why I should like Spike? Does that make sense? If it doesn't, forgive me, I've just woken up 😛 That's kind of what I meant with being hesitant after the pro-Spike posts. Now we've cleared things up I'd feel more up for posting my reasons but still don't think it would change anyone's mind and I don't want to. I probably will post but I wouldn't wish a sleepy Flannen post that tries to make sense of things on anyone! 🙂

I can see being selfish in some ways, because I'm sort of that way about a ship on a show that I had to break up with, because the creator went out of his way to kill said ship for the sake of another. lol. But, I won't even begin to get into that, as it has nothing to do with this thread and I don't know if that's what you mean.

(And it's late and I'm exhausted as well.)

But, I understand wanting to discuss why you don't like him, as opposed to discussing why you should. The thing is, Zobo asked "why the Spike hate," and so I kind of feel like she was offering people that chance to discuss that, whether or not there were some pro-Spike posts in the mix.

And I don't think any of us really want another's opinion to change our mind, we're just in a discuss-y type mood and this just happened to be the discussion. But, I understand your hesitation because I've been in these type of situations myself.

 

[zobothehobo]

Ah okay, I get ya!

For me it's just a personal thing and I guess kinda selfish in some ways. I'd like to discuss why I don't like Spike and why others don't like Spike as opposed to why I should like Spike? Does that make sense? If it doesn't, forgive me, I've just woken up 😛 That's kind of what I meant with being hesitant after the pro-Spike posts. Now we've cleared things up I'd feel more up for posting my reasons but still don't think it would change anyone's mind and I don't want to. I probably will post but I wouldn't wish a sleepy Flannen post that tries to make sense of things on anyone! 🙂

damn, I hit enter. That's the question I was going for. Why don't you like Spike? Not why should you like Spike or why shouldn't you. This isn't a persuading thread... it's a curious thread.

---------- Post added at 05:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 AM ----------

Kana agrees: yeah but in all fairness I know a lot people who only like Angel for that reason

My sister's like that and it bothers me. I don't mind someone liking or disliking any of the characters. I think there's something to like and dislike in each one. That's part of what makes them all so fantastic. But liking or disliking them for reasons like this feels a little... shallow and annoying.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But liking or disliking them for reasons like this feels a little... shallow and annoying.

BINGO! You have it now... so when the perception becomes 'x' is just liked for these shallow and annoying reasons, and more and more people state they like 'x' then you start to see only the shallow and annoying, and then soon 'x' starts to reflect those shallow and annoying feelings.. and you start to turn away from 'x'.

Thats the problem I have and am having.. does that make sense, Z? How fans can affect how you view a show or character.

 

[sosa lola]

StarSlayer agrees: Thing is I could rebut everyone of those arguments, but I know that won't change their minds, lol!

LOL! When someone hates a character with passion you can't discuss anything with them. Better agree to disagree. 😀

soulunsung agrees: Okay, if we're REALLY going the stalker route...then you better put Angel in that category as well. I'm just sayin'.

This thread is about Spike. Not Angel.

 

[soulunsung]

This thread is about Spike. Not Angel.

Wow! Really?! I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. lol. 😉

But, really...in all fun and jokes, I do realize this.

 

[StarSlayer]

That annoys me too! As a Spike fan, I like him because of what I see. I like him because of who he is. He is me... very much me. And I love him for that. He makes mistakes but he's very me about them. Yes, he's good looking but there is WAY more to the character than that.

Honestly, on some level, I think everyone can relate to Spike. Hear me out on this one. 🙂 Haven't we all wanted to be someone we were told we never could be or never amount to being? Spike wanted to be good after falling in love with Buffy, but no one was buying it (Dawn maybe being the exception), including maybe some viewers. "He's a monster." He can never be good. And although Spike tried to be good and fight evil/demons, the Scoobies (and even Buffy at times) never believed he could be good because he had no soul. Even when he got his soul, they weren't convinced, except maybe Buffy because she said she felt it. He still had to prove himself. So, whether it's in school, through family, or just to prove to ourselves that we can conquer our own demons (hehe, see what I did there? 😉), I think we can all in some way relate to the character. But, it's fine if some disagree or don't see it that way. 🙂

 

[EvilBuffy]

Forgive me because this is the only part of the fandom I've ever been in... do a lot of Spike fans in the fandom only like Spike because James is hot? That's a shallow obnoxious reason to like Spike IMO.

I can't rep you so I'll have to respond. I know I don't like him because of that. I just like his character in general.

 

[soulunsung]

Marisa agrees: Yeah she does but on that show there are so many horrible characters I almost just don't care sometimes LOL. Lately there all so judgmental and hypocrites.

Hey you like her, I'm totally not gonna knock you for it. lol. I just don't care for her and for me, it's a bit different where Carly is concerned. I just think she's the worst one of all, honestly. Like I said, my hatred for her is nearly 16 years old and it's not about to change. 😉

Flannen agrees: Cool, like I said its much more to do with my personal feelings y'know? But thank you, I feel less hesitant to post now.

Oh, I know and believe me I totally understand. I hope you do share your reasons for why you dislike Spike, but if you don't feel comfortable with it then that's okay too.

I don't mind someone liking or disliking any of the characters. I think there's something to like and dislike in each one. That's part of what makes them all so fantastic. But liking or disliking them for reasons like this feels a little... shallow and annoying.

I agree with this, the part about it feeling a little shallow and annoying. It's not like there are any rules or written guidelines on how people should chose reasons to and not to like a specific character, but using reasons like a.) just because I don't like them or b.) i don't find the actor portraying the character to be attractive, so therefore I'm just going to base my decision to not like character solely on that alone instead of giving the character a chance to grow and show me something can come off as a tad bit annoying. I mean, I'm not saying no one's entitled to those feelings at all, but it still doesn't make it any less shallow. Or well, that's just my personal opinion anyway.

ETA: Aw, I noticed that and I was going to say something to it, but I think we'll just big time disagree. But, I am so very glad that you did share though and while I don't agree with your thoughts, I definitely respect that they're yours. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

So I said I was feeling more comfortable replying to this thread so here goes. (Sorry if I repeat anything others have said, too lazy to go back all the way through).

I've been thinking all day about this really and I realised that I've never been a huge fan of him. A lot of people have said they loved him when he was the Big Bad and comic relief but even then, I was relatively indifferent to him. I could tolerate his cockiness and stuff in Season 2 because he was a villain that thought a lot of himself but still wasn't loving him. I think I must be one of the only people who doesn't think a lot of his appearance in Lovers Walk lol but it's just not a highlight of mine. In season 4 I appreciated his comic relief and stuff but I found his whole 'Scoobies will you help me, I'll repay you by trying to destroy you all' really irritating, but similarly to Season 2 can except that being part of his 'villain' nature.

Where I really start to become incredibly indifferent and uninterested in him is from season five onwards. I really hated the falling in love storyline and what it did to his character. He was petty (I have serious issues with how everything went down with Riley) and, for the most part, downright manipulative although he does have his moments. Now some may say that I should tolerate it here like I do for seasons 2 and 4 but I just don't, how ever wrong that may make me. Season five is where I begin to find Spike REALLY inconsistent. I feel like I'm being pushed to like him, to admire his 'good' soulless deeds and maybe I, in turn, really push against that. I absolutely cannot stand the role he takes in Buffy's life in season six. He drags her down and I really do blame him for the strong dislike I have for Buffy now too, even if its unfair to do so. At the times when he wasn't being arrogant and cocky, I found him outright pathetic which meant I really struggled to buy into this whole wanting to be a better man...pire. He was a creep: stalking her, stealing her clothes, actively ruining her relationship and it just really irked me!

Like Kean said, I did not believe his redemption storyline for one second. I think I agree with sco that his character becomes so one dimensional and boring for me, that any scene he appears in turns me right off. As with the Riley sitch in season five I can't stand how he treats Wood and again his inconsistency flares up. He's supposed to be feeling all sorry for himself, to the point that he's crazy in the basement and then says all that he does to Wood. That leads to the rest of his guilt to hold so little conviction for me. And as for his whole journey towards being a hero, not only did I not believe but I just couldn't make myself care about it because by that point the character does not give me enough to make me care. There's no 'umph' about him, I don't see him as being Mr Get Up and Go and find the whole thing really anti-climatic. It's not even about feeling like his reasons for it were selfishly motivated, I just feel like he doesn't really care about it and thus I don't care about it.

I'm in absolute agreement with Kean about his chameleon-like personality. Like in Crush when he's supposed to be in love with Buffy but Dru comes and bats her pyschotic eyelashes and he forgets it all. It makes me feel like he doesn't actually know he is, or what he wants so I pull away from getting behind him.

There's also lots of reasons that aren't really in the character's control but that do add to my dislike for him so I'll say them. 1) The soul storyline. It had been done, I was annoyed it was being done again and I think this prevented me from caring, I just resented it. 2) The fact he TOOK OVER the show lol. Again, I know its not his fault but it made me wish away his screen time and furthered me along my 'I don't care' path. 3) And finally, this goes back to what I mentioned earlier. It's when Buffy becomes more involved with Spike that I began to dislike her. I blame him for her becoming someone I could no longer relate to and could not support. Buffy may have changed him for the better but I think he changed her for the worse.

Those last reasons may not be deemed valid by some of you but they're pretty stonking factors in my feelings toward them so I obviously do think they're valid. I know I probably shouldn't let these factors affect my opinion and I'll be criticised for it but it's how it is.

So there ya go, a mish-mash of ramblings. I know I should probably offer you more detailed examples or whatever but I can't lol. If you want me to expand on anything then I will, cos I know this post isn't going to win any awards for clarity.

 

[sosa lola]

Wow! Really?! I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. lol. 😉

But, really...in all fun and jokes, I do realize this.

Then why did you bring up Angel if you realize this? The fact that Angel used to stalk Buffy doesn't really cancel the fact that Spike did, too. Perhaps it's a vampire thing, I heard even Edward on Twilight is a stalker, too.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Oh, I definitely agree that he was written a bit inconsistently, even though I'm a Spike fan. I'm still scratching my head over the 'Doctor' thing in 'As You Were' lol. 😀

The first half of AtS season 5 were what really sold me on the inconsistencies...for example, I do like Destiny as an episode and seeing Angel challenged like that from Spike of all people was really interesting, but I didn't understand why Spike was being a bit...petty, I guess you would say, in wanting to take Angel's prophecy away. You could argue that he had other much more valid reasons for wanting to do so that he just didn't express (his history of self-esteem/existential/~soul~ issues and whatnot), but going by what was actually stated/what happens in the text, it's pretty shallow for someone, IMO, who should've been better than that.

I do wonder if parts of Spike's characterization are sacrificed for others' development and if that is a part of why sometimes he's inconsistent. Like, going back to 'Destiny', Angel appears much wiser but at the same time his heroism is much more ambiguous when you see Spike's brash, unapologetic version of righteousness. It kinda factors into one of the themes of Season 5 and Angel's arc right there, IMO: when a jaded hero loses the mission. And vice versa, of course- parts of others' characterization is sacrificed to further Spike as well. Oh, writing. 😛

But the Robin/Nikki Wood thing was just cruel. :/

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Then why did you bring up Angel if you realize this? The fact that Angel used to stalk Buffy doesn't really cancel the fact that Spike did, too. Perhaps it's a vampire thing, I heard even Edward on Twilight is a stalker, too.

She did say she was "just saying". 😉 Maybe it's not *correct*, I guess, to bring up Angel, but fact is very many fans are only fans of one or the other, and very often Angel fans and Spike haters are one and the same, and vice versa. I like both, personally, but whatever. 😀 I'm sure soulunsung didn't mean anything nasty about it, just that the criteria for hating Spike *does* fit other characters' behavior as well.

 

[StarSlayer]

Oh, I definitely agree that he was written a bit inconsistently, even though I'm a Spike fan. I'm still scratching my head over the 'Doctor' thing in 'As You Were' lol. 😀

Maybe it's just me (and it isn't the fangirl talking), but I didn't see the character too inconsistently written. I could go into reasons why, but don't have time now. And I actually don't think that with any of the characters. I thought the writing was pretty great throughout the series. 🙂

But the Robin/Nikki Wood thing was just cruel. :/

Must resist urge to debate...need to study...lol 😀

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

prophecygrrl agrees: Go study, hun!

But, I have to save the world...again 😉

 

[Skanky Vamp]

blah blah blah

So do you think if when Joss realized that the character was popular instead of trying to turn him 'good' if he kept him the narcissistic villain that he was through most of the series (2 through most of 5) and made him, more or less, Buffy's Lex Luthor- always around plotting and scheming but not actually The Big Bad, do you think the character would have been preserved in your eyes?