Why the Spike hate?

[The Unspoken]

I took his nasty behavior regarding Nikki/Robin as a way to cope with the guilt about his past victims. Which isn't a justification of course.

Also, and this isn't a slam on anyone, I don't think the show had a 'Spuffy agenda' as some have accused it of having. If they were that concerned with promoting Spuffy, they wouldn't have shot the attempted rape or shown Spike's many flaws. I think they were just trying to tell a story. Really.

 

[prophecygrrl]

So do you think if when Joss realized that the character was popular instead of trying to turn him 'good' if he kept him the narcissistic villain that he was through most of the series (2 through most of 5) and made him, more or less, Buffy's Lex Luthor- always around plotting and scheming but not actually The Big Bad, do you think the character would have been preserved in your eyes?

I think that might've been Joss's intention when he first realized Spike was popular back in Season 2, actually. He went another route by Season 5 obviously, but I don't believe he ever specifically intended to make Spike good after initially deciding to keep him around.

 

[Flannen]

So do you think if when Joss realized that the character was popular instead of trying to turn him 'good' if he kept him the narcissistic villain that he was through most of the series (2 through most of 5) and made him, more or less, Buffy's Lex Luthor- always around plotting and scheming but not actually The Big Bad, do you think the character would have been preserved in your eyes?

I wouldn't have grown to hate him, I don't think. Like I said, he's never been a favourite of mine but I could tolerate him from 2-4, and occasionally in 5, so yeah if what you describe had happened I would have such animosity towards his character.

I took his nasty behavior regarding Nikki/Robin as a way to cope with the guilt about his past victims. Which isn't a justification of course.

Also, and this isn't a slam on anyone, I don't think the show had a 'Spuffy agenda' as some have accused it of having. If they were that concerned with promoting Spuffy, they wouldn't have shot the attempted rape or shown Spike's many flaws. I think they were just trying to tell a story. Really.

I don't know if what I said about him taking him over the show encouraged you to say this but when I mentioned it, I (for once!) wasn't actually talking about Spuffy. I just meant Spike in general. He had so much screen time compared to some of the others (Willow, Xander, Giles mainly) and I found that really unsatisfying considering it was the last season y'know? But for others, who enjoy the character I imagine it's not an issue.

Out of interest, does having a 'Spuffy agenda' mean that they have to promote it though. The issues I may have with how much Spuffy stuff there was would only lie in how much of the show it took up, as opposed it to being positive.

 

[Flannen]

I don't see how it became the Spike show either.

Really? One thing that I have seen agreed upon a lot, from both camps, is that he took up a considerable amount of screen time in season six and seven, particularly S7. I see it so much that I rarely have any inclination to watch them now. When I did rewatch the whole series a year ago, after many, many years, I was actually quite surprised as to how much was actually about him.

 

[zobothehobo]

Really? One thing that I have seen agreed upon a lot, from both camps, is that he took up a considerable amount of screen time in season six and seven, particularly S7. I see it so much that I rarely have any inclination to watch them now. When I did rewatch the whole series a year ago, after many, many years, I was actually quite surprised as to how much was actually about him.

Yeah he took a lot of screen time but I still feel that seasons 6 and 7 are about Buffy. Season 7 is more about Spike than season 6... but I still think season 7 is about Buffy. Spike was a big part of her life. He was very important to her and she was really close to him. That's why it became more about him and he got more screen time.

 

[xaphania]

I'm not of the view that Spike took over the show either, but perhaps that's because I'm a Spike fan.

I'm anxiously anticipating the season six and seven data for gabrielleabelle's series "Whose Show Is It Anyway?" It'll be interesting to see Spike's data for those seasons.

Originally, this started as an attempt to test the claim that "Spike took over the show". It involves comprehensive line and scene counts for the characters. Of course, it quickly expanded past it's original premise and became more generalized to look for different trends that emerged.

(And this meta is definitely worth a look - very interesting.)

 

[The Unspoken]

I don't know if what I said about him taking him over the show encouraged you to say this

It was (also) directed at some previous replies.

but when I mentioned it, I (for once!) wasn't actually talking about Spuffy. I just meant Spike in general. He had so much screen time compared to some of the others (Willow, Xander, Giles mainly) and I found that really unsatisfying considering it was the last season y'know? But for others, who enjoy the character I imagine it's not an issue.

I like Spike and I too have an issue with how little screen time the others got in season 7. The problematic thing about the 'taking the show over' argument is that Spike is not a cause, but a result of the direction the show took. Obviously Spike and Spuffy fans can cope somewhat, because for them the Spike and Spuffy stuff compensates for the lack of good stuff in season 7. The other culprits here are of course the Potentials and the drawn-out plots.

Out of interest, does having a 'Spuffy agenda' mean that they have to promote it though. The issues I may have with how much Spuffy stuff there was would only lie in how much of the show it took up, as opposed it to being positive.

Well, some people have pointed out (not necessarily you) that they felt pushed to like Spike and Spuffy.

 

[Taake]

Really? One thing that I have seen agreed upon a lot, from both camps, is that he took up a considerable amount of screen time in season six and seven, particularly S7. I see it so much that I rarely have any inclination to watch them now. When I did rewatch the whole series a year ago, after many, many years, I was actually quite surprised as to how much was actually about him.

I know same here, I just tried to re-watch but couldn't be bothered because I found him the most lacklustre character and yet it feels like he's supposed to be the big huzzah. Now I just see how Buffy gets further separated from the Scoobies (to a big part on a account of him) and that just tires me of the whole thing and I can't be bothered to watch s6-7 right now

 

[A Flawed Fashion]

What I find is that those who didn't watch from the original airings of the ealier episodes are more for Spike/Spuffy. Fangirl hype (that's what I call it, hope no one is offended but I think evering understands what I mean by those words) doesn't help me in liking a character but it didn't ignite anything that wasn't already there for me.

I think it might have to do with watching Buffy season 2 as it aired not knowing what would happen now that Angel is dead, not knowing he'd get a spin-off, not knowing there'd be another vampire for Buffy to engage with. Watching the show in DVD you know there are 7 seasons with a blonde guy on the cover whom most people, even if you aren't a fan, recognize as Spike the vampire. This fandom has given me the opinion that watching a show as it airs is a completely different one than watching it on DVD with no interruptions or suspense.

I completely agree. I have a lot of left over feelings from watching this show when it originally aired. I've watched it again on DVD, but a lot of the thoughts I had from back then are still here and still shape what I think. In the case of Spike, watching him get progressively worse for three years and not just three seasons on DVD has a huge impact.

I actually liked Spike less when i rewatched the show last year. Over time I had started to forget about all the details of the episodes and started to think Spike probably wasn't that bad because all these people loved him. By the end of season 4, I was off the Spike train. By the end of season 6, I didn't like him at all (of course all the characters are not at their best in that season).

 

[Icarium]

So do you think if when Joss realized that the character was popular instead of trying to turn him 'good' if he kept him the narcissistic villain that he was through most of the series (2 through most of 5) and made him, more or less, Buffy's Lex Luthor- always around plotting and scheming but not actually The Big Bad, do you think the character would have been preserved in your eyes?

I think the point is that Spike didn't really have a place in the story after S4. So his ridiculous "love" for Buffy came up. Twisting everyone else to fit Spike's needs isn't the way to write a story - if a character doesn't belong to a particular story he or she needs to be written out, not the entire story changed beyond recognition to accommodate them. At least when it's a supporting character, not the main one.

Also, and this isn't a slam on anyone, I don't think the show had a 'Spuffy agenda' as some have accused it of having. If they were that concerned with promoting Spuffy, they wouldn't have shot the attempted rape or shown Spike's many flaws.

Of course they had a Spuffy agenda. They also had the agenda of never resolving the love Triangle of Doom, so they could string all Buffy/Vamp shippers along.

There's also lots of reasons that aren't really in the character's control but that do add to my dislike for him so I'll say them. 1) The soul storyline. It had been done, I was annoyed it was being done again and I think this prevented me from caring, I just resented it. 2) The fact he TOOK OVER the show lol. Again, I know its not his fault but it made me wish away his screen time and furthered me along my 'I don't care' path. 3) And finally, this goes back to what I mentioned earlier. It's when Buffy becomes more involved with Spike that I began to dislike her. I blame him for her becoming someone I could no longer relate to and could not support. Buffy may have changed him for the better but I think he changed her for the worse.

Those last reasons may not be deemed valid by some of you but they're pretty stonking factors in my feelings toward them so I obviously do think they're valid. I know I probably shouldn't let these factors affect my opinion and I'll be criticised for it but it's how it is.

I think a reason number two is undeniably valid. How many of us like it when a character they hate takes over a show? Anyone? 🙂

 

[zobothehobo]

I'm not of the view that Spike took over the show either, but perhaps that's because I'm a Spike fan.

I'm anxiously anticipating the season six and seven data for gabrielleabelle's series "Whose Show Is It Anyway?" It'll be interesting to see Spike's data for those seasons.

(And this meta is definitely worth a look - very interesting.)

I'd rep but I hit the limit AGAIN. Thanks for the rec! This is really interesting!

 

[soulunsung]

Then why did you bring up Angel if you realize this? The fact that Angel used to stalk Buffy doesn't really cancel the fact that Spike did, too. Perhaps it's a vampire thing, I heard even Edward on Twilight is a stalker, too.

And I could ask why are you having what seems like a go at me, because the only reason I brought him up is that it was pointed out that Spike was a stalker and this could be one of the reason's why people dislike his character, I just simply said so was Angel. He did the stalker thing, as well. That's all, wasn't really trying to cancel anything out. I was just making a point, they're both guilty of it.

And as far as the Edward thing goes, he is.

---------- Post added at 02:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:56 PM ----------

She did say she was "just saying". 😉 Maybe it's not *correct*, I guess, to bring up Angel, but fact is very many fans are only fans of one or the other, and very often Angel fans and Spike haters are one and the same, and vice versa. I like both, personally, but whatever. 😀 I'm sure soulunsung didn't mean anything nasty about it, just that the criteria for hating Spike *does* fit other characters' behavior as well.

Thank you for this, because in hindsight that is all that I meant. I didn't mean to bring Angel into anything, I was just simply pointing out that that criteria for disliking Spike could be one and the same for Angel, since they were both guilty of doing this. I actually like both characters, I just identify more with Spike than I do Angel. And I like Angel differently on his show, to the way that I enjoyed him on Buffy.

 

[Flannen]

Yeah he took a lot of screen time but I still feel that seasons 6 and 7 are about Buffy. Season 7 is more about Spike than season 6... but I still think season 7 is about Buffy. Spike was a big part of her life. He was very important to her and she was really close to him. That's why it became more about him and he got more screen time.

I like Spike and I too have an issue with how little screen time the others got in season 7. The problematic thing about the 'taking the show over' argument is that Spike is not a cause, but a result of the direction the show took. Obviously Spike and Spuffy fans can cope somewhat, because for them the Spike and Spuffy stuff compensates for the lack of good stuff in season 7. The other culprits here are of course the Potentials and the drawn-out plots.

(Sorry xaph, just realised I left yours out!)

Firstly, I maybe should have left out 'took over' because it seems like that's been taken really seriously when it was intended as a bit of hyperbole and tongue in cheek. I don't think it became wholly about Spike, it was still about Buffy, that's not my issue.

And while I know and get WHY he got more screentime, doesn't mean I like it! I can appreciate he can became an important part of Buffy's life (doesn't mean I like that either 😉) but at the same time, Xander, Willow and Giles had been an important part of Buffy's (and the show's) life for 7 years but they were pushed aside and it ruffled my feathers: because it was the last season.

I'm also not disagreeing that the Potentials also played a huge role in this.

Well, some people have pointed out (not necessarily you) that they felt pushed to like Spike and Spuffy.

I used 'pushed' as a way to describe the whole 'fans loved him so Joss brought him back' thing. Because of that I felt like I was supposed to like him and that is why people seem more shocked when you dislike Spike! So I'd be more than happy to say there was a Spike Agenda. I never felt I was expected to like Spuffy, just Spike.

 

[The Unspoken]

I used 'pushed' as a way to describe the whole 'fans loved him so Joss brought him back' thing. Because of that I felt like I was supposed to like him and that is why people seem more shocked when you dislike Spike! So I'd be more than happy to say there was a Spike Agenda. I never felt I was expected to like Spuffy, just Spike.

I hate to say this, but...

...this is also true of Angel, Anya, Oz and possibly other characters. They were also brought back or had their roles expanded due to the reaction of the fans. So if we keep bringing up the 'Spike agenda' argument, we might as well apply it to all those other characters as well.

 

[soulunsung]

I used 'pushed' as a way to describe the whole 'fans loved him so Joss brought him back' thing. Because of that I felt like I was supposed to like him and that is why people seem more shocked when you dislike Spike! So I'd be more than happy to say there was a Spike Agenda. I never felt I was expected to like Spuffy, just Spike.

But, I always took it as a good thing that the fans like Spiked a lot, and so Joss decided to keep him around. In all of the time that Spike was on the show, at any moment Joss could have decided to write him out, if he'd actually wanted to. So, the fact that he didn't, tells me that he wanted to keep the character around and it doesn't necessarily translate into an "I'm just keeping him around for the fan's sake, since they like him so much" because really this is Joss we're talking about here, "mister, I have to give the fans what they need, not necessarily what they want."

And if we're going that route, then I could wager an opinion regarding another television show and another creator completely re-writing the meaning of one relationship in favor of giving the fans who've waited and watched for years their ship to sail. But, that's a path that I don't really want to go down. 🙂

I don't disagree with you at all. Joss could have quite easily written him out. But I just calling it as I see it.

And I'm okay with that. 🙂

 

[Taake]

I hate to say this, but...

...this is also true of Angel, Anya, Oz and possibly other characters. They were also brought back or had their roles expanded due to the reaction of the fans. So if we keep bringing up the 'Spike agenda' argument, we might as well apply it to all those other characters as well.

But on the show how much screen-time did those character's get? Angel got a fair share around s2-3 of course but not at the expense of the scoobies. And Anya and Oz hardly ever got more than a few lines in an episode

 

[Flannen]

I hate to say this, but...

...this is also true of Angel, Anya, Oz and possibly other characters. They were also brought back or had their roles expanded due to the reaction of the fans. So if we keep bringing up the 'Spike agenda' argument, we might as well apply it to all those other characters as well.

That's probably quite true. But, in all fairness, it's not brought up quite so often with those characters. And besides Oz got, what, one episode after he left? Anya came in a role that slotted in nicely among the others and Angel came back to leave to get his own show?

And look, I never pretend not to be biased about these things or act like I don't defend other characters in the same way. But really, I think anyone that proclaims to do this is lying lol

 

[zobothehobo]

And while I know and get WHY he got more screentime, doesn't mean I like it! I can appreciate he can became an important part of Buffy's life (doesn't mean I like that either ) but at the same time, Xander, Willow and Giles had been an important part of Buffy's (and the show's) life for 7 years but they were pushed aside and it ruffled my feathers: because it was the last season.

*I am not trying to sound rude, if this comes off as rude, I'm really sorry. I'm just trying to understand and I'm doing so in the form of a question. I'm only saying this because I know some people think I'm rude some times when I'm not trying to be* So what really bothers you is that Spike became more important to Buffy than the other Scoobies? Because that's what I see happening in season 7. It's not that the Scoobies got pushed aside or ignored as much as it is Buffy felt she could talk to Spike more than she could talk to them so she connected with him and became closer to him. Is that your issue? Not the amount of screen time but the amount of closeness Buffy had with Spike?

I used 'pushed' as a way to describe the whole 'fans loved him so Joss brought him back' thing. Because of that I felt like I was supposed to like him and that is why people seem more shocked when you dislike Spike! So I'd be more than happy to say there was a Spike Agenda. I never felt I was expected to like Spuffy, just Spike.

huh. This is the kind of thing I never would have thought of. So Joss bringing Spike back because fans liked him turned you off from him? That's interesting.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think that might've been Joss's intention when he first realized Spike was popular back in Season 2, actually. He went another route by Season 5 obviously, but I don't believe he ever specifically intended to make Spike good after initially deciding to keep him around.

No, I dont think he did either.. I know he was supposed to be a one-and-done character and brought him back because of his popularity but really, other than the path he went down in 5, the character was played out by that time.

 

[Flannen]

*I am not trying to sound rude, if this comes off as rude, I'm really sorry. I'm just trying to understand and I'm doing so in the form of a question. I'm only saying this because I know some people think I'm rude some times when I'm not trying to be* So what really bothers you is that Spike became more important to Buffy than the other Scoobies? Because that's what I see happening in season 7. It's not that the Scoobies got pushed aside or ignored as much as it is Buffy felt she could talk to Spike more than she could talk to them so she connected with him and became closer to him. Is that your issue? Not the amount of screen time but the amount of closeness Buffy had with Spike?

Nope, I'm afraid not. It's definitely screentime, lol. By S7 I couldn't care less who Buffy spoke to about things or who she was close to, because I don't like her lol. My issue is that I was invested in those characters (the Scoobies) too and as far as I see it, they were pushed aside. They ambled around being bit parts in other people's stories. They deserved more than that.

huh. This is the kind of thing I never would have thought of. So Joss bringing Spike back because fans liked him turned you off from him? That's interesting.

Kind of. Not straight away but as time went on, and from being part of a fandom, yeah. I didn't decide I didn't like him because Joss brought him back for the fans but the fact it got to a stage where I felt like I couldn't say anything negative Spike without being jumped on, I began to resent it a whole lot.