Why the Spike hate?

[Icarium]

I'm anxiously anticipating the season six and seven data for gabrielleabelle's series "Whose Show Is It Anyway?" It'll be interesting to see Spike's data for those seasons.

The link seems to be broken. And isn't that LJ totally biased in Spike's favour anyway?

I like Spike and I too have an issue with how little screen time the others got in season 7. The problematic thing about the 'taking the show over' argument is that Spike is not a cause, but a result of the direction the show took. Obviously Spike and Spuffy fans can cope somewhat, because for them the Spike and Spuffy stuff compensates for the lack of good stuff in season 7. The other culprits here are of course the Potentials and the drawn-out plots.

Why are you so sure Spike isn't the cause of the problem? I mean, not literally Spike but the writers' obsession with him. A strong argument can be made that just about everything that happened to Buffy and her friends in S6 was done to get to Spuffy - since if Buffy wasn't depressed and her friends not giving a fig about it she wouldn't have turned to Spike. Same for S7 - call me crazy but I was left with the distinct impression that the whole point of the Empty Places quarrel was to enable Spike to come and show everyone how he is the one Buffy can trust and isn't that sooooo romantic? *pukes*

...this is also true of Angel, Anya, Oz and possibly other characters. They were also brought back or had their roles expanded due to the reaction of the fans. So if we keep bringing up the 'Spike agenda' argument, we might as well apply it to all those other characters as well.

Sure but none of those characters forced so many changes to everything in the show with their mere presence in it. Keeping a popular character is a very mild form of sell-out...but only if you do it well.

So what really bothers you is that Spike became more important to Buffy than the other Scoobies? Because that's what I see happening in season 7. It's not that the Scoobies got pushed aside or ignored as much as it is Buffy felt she could talk to Spike more than she could talk to them so she connected with him and became closer to him.

It's not? That's exactly what happened. For example:

Willow: The ghost of Tara tried to make me commit suicide.
Buffy: Whatever, bitch, we need to go save Spike!

or Xander: I have been stabbed and I am bleeding.
Buffy: Shut up and die! Let me check if my immortal boyfriend is okay.

 

[StarSlayer]

I used 'pushed' as a way to describe the whole 'fans loved him so Joss brought him back' thing. Because of that I felt like I was supposed to like him and that is why people seem more shocked when you dislike Spike! So I'd be more than happy to say there was a Spike Agenda. I never felt I was expected to like Spuffy, just Spike.

I can say the same thing about Angel in "Amends." The fact that it started to snow and was somehow a miracle is suppose to make me like him more now? I liked him already (although he pissed me off a lot in s3), and felt that was a cheap ploy to make me root for him (again). So, I do see where you're coming from here. 🙂 Just because something is in front of you doesn't mean you have to like it, even if that was the director's intention. However, at the same time, whether it's Spike, Angel, Buffy, ships, whatever, I think some just want others to at least appreciate what they like. I think most people do, but it often gets overlooked when we hear some say they hate characters, ships, etc, that others absolutely love. 🙂

 

[xaphania]

The link seems to be broken. And isn't that LJ totally biased in Spike's favour anyway?

The link works fine. And LJ is like any other corner of fandom - there are people who like certain characters and people who don't. That particular person is a Spike fan but there's nothing wrong with that. And the data in that meta can't be biased in Spike's favour, it's the raw data from the show and transcripts.

 

[Flannen]

I can say the same thing about Angel in "Amends." The fact that it started to snow and was somehow a miracle is suppose to make me like him more now? I liked him already (although he pissed me off a lot in s3), and felt that was a cheap ploy to make me root for him (again). So, I do see where you're coming from here. 🙂 Just because something is in front of you doesn't mean you have to like it, even if that was the director's intention. However, at the same time, whether it's Spike, Angel, Buffy, ships, whatever, I think some just want others to at least appreciate what they like. I think most people do, but it often gets overlooked when we hear some say they hate characters, ships, etc.

Yup I agree, but at the same time, I also think its important to appreciate what others don't like.

And I see your point about Angel and 'Amends.' At least you only had that for one episode. I had to put up with it for 3 seasons 😉😛

 

[soulunsung]

StarSlayer: However, at the same time, whether it's Spike, Angel, Buffy, ships, whatever, I think some just want others to at least appreciate what they like. I think most people do, but it often gets overlooked when we hear some say they hate characters, ships, etc, that others absolutely love.

I could not have said that any better, myself. It's always been like that for me, in any fandom that I've been immersed myself in. I don't necessarily care if you do or don't like my ship or character, but it would be nice if there could be some appreciation there for the why someone else might enjoy them even if you don't agree.

Although, I can see how, at times it could be a bit hard to do as well.

Flannen: I also think its important to appreciate what others don't like.

I think they do. I have that same problem in the OTH fandom, where I absolutely love the character of Dan Scott despite all of the despicable things he's done, I have to say I enjoyed

Spoiler

his redemption storyline and was fully invested in it and believed it with all my heart

because I think that's just me and I want to try and see the good in anything and believe that people can and do change for the better. I feel like if I stop believing in that, then that's the day I truly give up on humanity and I don't want that to ever happen.

 

[Tome]

Icarium, even though I don't always agree with you, I usually think that what you say make some sense, but...

call me crazy but I was left with the distinct impression that the whole point of the Empty Places quarrel was to enable Spike to come and show everyone how he is the one Buffy can trust and isn't that sooooo romantic? *pukes*

Now that is totally twisting things just to hate on a character. I've seen that countless times before, and with what you said in that quote I cannot take you seriously anymore. You do realize that what you implied there could be said about a LOT of other scenes and different characters on BtVS? Oh and in pretty much ANY other tv show or movie. Give me a break, please.

 

[Kean]

However, at the same time, whether it's Spike, Angel, Buffy, ships, whatever, I think some just want others to at least appreciate what they like. I think most people do, but it often gets overlooked when we hear some say they hate characters, ships, etc, that others absolutely love. 🙂

This part, I agree with 🙂

I know my fandom life would be a lot more enjoyable if there wasn't such a raging hatred for my favourite character (Angel) right now. Reading endless posts of people saying how he should be dusted or tortured or whatever is really disheartening.

But people are as entitled and justified in hating him as I am in loving him. And as much as it pains me, I know Angel deserves some of that anger (only some though 😛).

I definitely understand the impulse to defend what we love. I think it was Zobo who said earlier that she can't even imagine why someone wouldn't like Spike. I feel like that about Angel. I have no idea why I can empathise with him and not Spike. Or Willow, for that matter.

I suppose we are lucky. How boring it would be if we all agreed on everything. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

Now that is totally twisting things just to hate on a character. I've seen that countless times before, and with what you said in that quote I cannot take you seriously anymore. You do realize that what you implied there could be said about a LOT of other scenes and different characters on BtVS? Oh and in pretty much ANY other tv show or movie. Give me a break, please.

And that's why I said "impression", not "fact". Sure, there was also the attempt to show how only Buffy was the one righteous leader who was never wrong (tm) but was that was so sloppily written that I couldn't her but think that Spike's triumphant return was pretty much the point of the story.

 

[Zeppo]

Spike did need a redeeming moment, I'm all for it. I guess the thing here is that what the showrunners needed to - arguably OOC - get the gang to kick Buffy out of her house in order to do so. It did feed on the story of "what if Faith was in charge?" But honestly, at that point in the series, if that was the only point of having her exhiled it wouldn't have happened. I really dislike that they kicked her out dispite their frustrations and flip flop between OOC a little here, too. Some of the stuff said there was really stupid. One event needs to lead to another in fiction to roll along, I guess the upset here is do you risk integrity to do it? Maybe. And apparently. Having characters arguably act OOC for another's story sake is a no-no, which is what has been brought up. It's about personal perspectives when it comes to this, though.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Spike did need a redeeming moment, I'm all for it. I guess the thing here is that what the showrunners needed to - arguably OOC - get the gang to kick Buffy out of her house in order to do so. It did feed on the story of "what if Faith was in charge?" But honestly, at that point in the series, if that was the only point of having her exhiled it wouldn't have happened. I really dislike that they kicked her out dispite their frustrations and flip flop between OOC a little here, too. Some of the stuff said there was really stupid. One event needs to lead to another in fiction to roll along, I guess the upset here is do you risk integrity to do it? Maybe. And apparently. Having characters arguably act OOC for another's story sake is a no-no, which is what has been brought up. It's about personal perspectives when it comes to this, though.

I don't see that. My personal perspective...I didn't think the Scoobies were OOC there. I thought it made perfect sense, and I think that alienation from the Scoobies started when they tore her out of heaven and basically got caught up in their individual drama all through Season 6. I think Buffy forgave them ultimately for the resurrection thing, but really, in Season 7, could the gang ever be the same after everything that happened in Season 6? Would it have even been healthy to try to be the best of friends again after seeing, arguably, the darkest sides of each other? I think there is that possibility, yes, but quite literally, they're STILL dealing with the aftermath of Buffy's resurrection at that point- the First. They don't really have a whole lot of free time to work on their relationships as it is.

And so with Empty Places, I understand that they kicked her out. With the killed and injured Potentials, Xander's eye getting gouged out, Giles and Buffy's falling out in Lies My Parents Told Me, AND lingering isolation issues from Season 6...I don't think it's OOC for them to kick her out. Heck, I'll say it. I'm a HUGE Buffy fan, and even I was on the Scoobies' side in Empty Places. And in the end, I think Buffy needed that kick in the pants. Not because it leads to Spike helping her out, but that it leads to Buffy realizing what she needs to do.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

StarSlayer agrees: I agree they weren't OOC, but I still side with my girl Buffy The Scoobies had no right to kick her out IMO.

Lol yeah, I see that. 😀 I still think they had the right to select a new leader though, if maybe not physically kick her out of her own house for it (is that what you meant by kick her out? I couldn't tell lol). Like I said, I'm a huge Buffy fan (though I think you maybe, MAYBE, might be a bigger one that I am! 😀), so I reconcile that with the fact that ultimately, the Scoobies' voting her out of the house made her re-evaulate her position as a leader, form an excellent strategy of dodging and baiting Caleb, and go after the Scythe herself without risking any of the Potentials. Our girl knows what she's doing. In large part to Spike, yes, but Buffy herself is strong as anything too. He just made her remember it again. Cue Spuffy fangirling in three, two, one...😀

 

[StarSlayer]

I think the point is that Spike didn't really have a place in the story after S4. So his ridiculous "love" for Buffy came up. Twisting everyone else to fit Spike's needs isn't the way to write a story - if a character doesn't belong to a particular story he or she needs to be written out, not the entire story changed beyond recognition to accommodate them. At least when it's a supporting character, not the main one.

I don't get this argument, but then again, there's a lot of things I don't get in this thread, lol. First, as I've said, I don't mind if people hate Spike. It's their opinion, not mine. But, the argument that Spike should have been written out because he didn't seem to have a place after s4? Not buying it, sorry. 🙂 And I'm looking at this from a Buffy perspective, not from my opinion that Spike is a great character whom I love.

If we're particularly talking about s5, one of the main themes of that season was the "death is your gift" theme. Spike's story was just a sub-plot IMO. I don't see how Spike falling in love with Buffy twisted the story of Dawn as the key, Buffy trying to protect Dawn from Glory, and Buffy figuring out her destiny as the slayer. I do think Spike's subplot began to connect with this theme in "Intervention," but that's just good writing IMO. In that episode, on her path to discovering that death is her gift, Buffy learned she was "full of love," although she began to doubt if she was capable of love (due to being the slayer). And that was based on previous episodes in the season. Later, we truly saw that Buffy was "full of love" when she forgave Spike (this monster, this evil soulless thing) for the Buffybot, and was actually moved by his actions of protecting her and Dawn from Glory. As a result, Buffy knew she could count on Spike in her battle against Glory.

Sorry, I'll try to not debate again because I know that wasn't the point of this thread. But, I sometimes just can't resist. 🙂

---------- Post added 01-09-2011 at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-08-2011 at 11:17 PM ----------

zobothehobo agrees: He also connected to that theme with "every slayer has a death wish. Even you."

Definitely, which is why I've said in the past FFL shows a lot about Buffy as well, not just Spike.

Like I said, I'm a huge Buffy fan (though I think you maybe, MAYBE, might be a bigger one that I am! 😀), so I reconcile that with the fact that ultimately, the Scoobies' voting her out of the house made her re-evaulate her position as a leader, form an excellent strategy of dodging and baiting Caleb, and go after the Scythe herself without risking any of the Potentials. Our girl knows what she's doing. In large part to Spike, yes, but Buffy herself is strong as anything too. He just made her remember it again. Cue Spuffy fangirling in three, two, one...😀

Maybe, just maybe, lol! 😀 And I'm all for the Scoobies questioning Buffy's leadership. But to kick her out? Did they have to take it that far? Sigh, poor Buffy 🙁 Still, like you said, let's cue the Spuffy fangirling...or maybe it'd probably be safer to take it to the back-steps, lol 😀

 

[msfantastico87]

I've been trying to keep out of this thread for the longest time and I decided that I have to say something. You may or may not like it, but I'm gonna say it anyways...I'm not going to point out any names or any ships or anything like that, because this is a general message to everyone posting on this thread.

I find it funny and quite saddening that those that used to be a fan of Spike, aren't anymore because of Spike's fan base. That's like me saying "Oh, I used to love Paramore, until they became mainstream. Now they suck." Really? Same thing can be said about Angel fans not liking him anymore because of his fan base.

Although I do love Spike, and Spuffy, I can appreciate Angel, and Bangel. I'm not a hardcore Spuffy shipper, but I didn't become a Spuffy because the Bangel peeps were too opinionated on their favorite ship....know what I mean?

 

[zobothehobo]

I've been trying to keep out of this thread for the longest time and I decided that I have to say something. You may or may not like it, but I'm gonna say it anyways...I'm not going to point out any names or any ships or anything like that, because this is a general message to everyone posting on this thread.

I find it funny and quite saddening that those that used to be a fan of Spike, aren't anymore because of Spike's fan base. That's like me saying "Oh, I used to love Paramore, until they became mainstream. Now they suck." Really? Same thing can be said about Angel fans not liking him anymore because of his fan base.

Although I do love Spike, and Spuffy, I can appreciate Angel, and Bangel. I'm not a hardcore Spuffy shipper, but I didn't become a Spuffy because the Bangel peeps were too opinionated on their favorite ship....know what I mean?

To an extent I agree, this is an awful reason to dislike a character... but I can say the same thing truthfully about Faith. Like I said in the Why is Faith Overrated thread many months ago... I didn't dislike Faith before. I was very much indifferent to her. Then I joined BB and all the Fuffy love made me want to gag and I started to hate Faith. On the other hand, the fans of certain characters have made me appreciate them more too... for example Xander. I still hate Xander... but something HisMrs said in a thread a few weeks ago to me made me think about him and like him a bit more. I mean I still don't like him, but I appreciate his presence. Same with Dawn. I don't like her... I still hate her, but her fans have made me appreciate her on a level I NEVER would have thought I would.

In conclusion, while I do think it's silly to dislike a character because of that character's fan base, I do understand opinions being shaped and changed by the fandom and a character's fan base. I don't see Spike fans as being overly obnoxious... but I guess some do. Which brings up the question why? But I can see how many people would take great offense to that question and the many possible answers to it, so it's better not to ask.

 

[Taake]

I find it funny and quite saddening that those that used to be a fan of Spike, aren't anymore because of Spike's fan base. That's like me saying "Oh, I used to love Paramore, until they became mainstream. Now they suck." Really? Same thing can be said about Angel fans not liking him anymore because of his fan base.

Well I can only speak for me and for me it's been reading the view others have of Spike that has changed my own opinion because it has opened my eyes to a new way of looking him. And to me that was not a flattering light to see him in. That's why the fanbase changed my opinion.

It's not as if I've gone 'oh he's real popular, well I can't like him anymore'. It's the opinions that I so strongly disagree with that just completely turned the character around for me. I had never thought to interpret scenes and actions like what I've read around here and watching the show, with those things in mind, made me go "oh wow, that's just... nooo, I don't agree with that at all"

You can't take back what you've read and once those views are in your head it's hard to watch the show without it in mind. And for me that has sullied the character.

Perhaps it sounds silly to you, but feelings are what they are. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

It's not as if I've gone 'oh he's real popular, well I can't like him anymore'. It's the opinions that I so strongly disagree with that just completely turned the character around for me. I had never thought to interpret scenes and actions like what I've read around here and watching the show, with those things in mind, made me go "oh wow, that's just... nooo, I don't agree with that at all"

You can't take back what you've read and once those views are in your head it's hard to watch the show without it in mind. And for me that has sullied the character.

Granted, I've read a ton of stuff around the BB that interprets Spike as the demise of BtVS, including stuff in this thread. However, I guess it's just hard for me to then suddenly switch my opinion based on what others say because I know what I saw when I watched and no one can change that viewing experience for me. As a result, most of the arguments I've read, especially here, I just simply don't get and don't think are completely accurate. And this isn't just the Spike fangirl in me speaking, but the student who majored in film/TV.

Nevertheless, you can't force people to like characters. I wish I could get some people to see what I see and appreciate Spike for the character he is, but I probably can't. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

Granted, I've read a ton of stuff around the BB that interprets Spike as the demise of BtVS, including stuff in this thread. However, I guess it's just hard for me to then suddenly switch my opinion based on what others say because I know what I saw when I watched and no one can change that viewing experience for me. As a result, most of the arguments I've read, especially here, I just simply don't get and don't think are completely accurate. And this isn't just the Spike fangirl in me speaking, but the student who majored in film/TV.

Nevertheless, you can't force people to like characters. I wish I could get some people to see what I see and appreciate Spike for the character he is, but I probably can't. 🙂

Oh believe me, its not a sudden process. I think there seems to be some real misunderstanding about what some of us mean when it comes to the fandom affecting opinions. I don't know why though because I think that those members who have offered an explanation of it have actually been quite clear about it. It isn't a stand alone thing. For me it has developed over years and is wrapped up with: the messages the show conveys through certain interpretations of Spike's behaviour; the way he is discussed, interpreted and excused in comparison to other characters; and generally just an ever-changing and ever-evolving understanding of the show. Which is a very good thing because it's been over ten years since I started watching Buffy and I wouldn't want the 21 yr old me to think the same as an 11 yr old me.

And I really have to say this. I'm a student who studied film and TV. I was a flipping good film/TV student too. But that does not make me think that my interpretations of a show are more accurate than anyone else's. What makes them inaccurate? There are so many different film/TV theories and techniques of analysis and they will all push someone towards a different interpretation as the end result. And because of that the only thing I can see that makes them inaccurate is that you don't interpret it that way. I don't agree with a lot of intepretations round here but my film/TV theory knowledge doesn't make me think that they're any less accurate than my own. I don't mean this to sound rude and I apologise if it does but I am having a serious issue around here at the moment with the way in which people's opinions are being treated.

 

[StarSlayer]

Oh believe me, its not a sudden process. I think there seems to be some real misunderstanding about what some of us mean when it comes to the fandom affecting opinions. I don't know why though because I think that those members who have offered an explanation of it have actually been quite clear about it. It isn't a stand alone thing. For me it has developed over years and is wrapped up with: the messages the show conveys through certain interpretations of Spike's behaviour; the way he is discussed, interpreted and excused in comparison to other characters; and generally just an ever-changing and ever-evolving understanding of the show. Which is a very good thing because it's been over ten years since I started watching Buffy and I wouldn't want the 21 yr old me to think the same as an 11 yr old me.

That's fair since I've only started becoming a fan, so I don't have 10 years of reading a lot of interpretations.

And I really have to say this. I'm a student who studied film and TV. I was a flipping good film/TV student too. But that does not make me think that my interpretations of a show are more accurate than anyone else's. What makes them inaccurate? There are so many different film/TV theories and techniques of analysis and they will all push someone towards a different interpretation as the end result. And because of that the only thing I can see that makes them inaccurate is that you don't interpret it that way. I don't agree with a lot of intepretations round here but my film/TV theory knowledge doesn't make me think that they're any less accurate than my own. I don't mean this to sound rude and I apologise if it does but I am having a serious issue around here at the moment with the way in which people's opinions are being treated.

I hope you don't think that I think my interpretations are more accurate than others because that's not what I meant at all and was never my intention. I know there are hundreds of film/TV theories out there, techniques, analyses, and interpretations for any film or TV show, and especially BtVS because there's so much going on. It's one of the reasons why I joined the BB, lol. I love reading all about them, even if I don't always agree. 🙂

By accurate, I meant toward the arguments like "Spike took over the show," or "the story suddenly revolved around Spike." Personally, I get offended by those arguments because I love Buffy the character the most. I saw how the main plot always revolved around Buffy and her journey. Spike's story was always the sub-plot. It wasn't the driving factor. Also, even if Spike came more into the story, he wasn't the only character that did so. I think although Buffy is the main character, the series had amazing elements of ensemble casting. All the characters interacted together, which made them all important at some point or another. So, to say one character destroyed the show and suddenly become the writers' main intention, I don't buy it for a second and don't think I ever will.

And like I said before. Although I disagree with a lot posted in this thread, I still respect and appreciate people's opinions. 🙂 And btw, it's awesome to find a fellow film/TV major! 😀 I was pretty flipping good one too 😉

 

[Icarium]

I don't get this argument, but then again, there's a lot of things I don't get in this thread, lol. First, as I've said, I don't mind if people hate Spike. It's their opinion, not mine. But, the argument that Spike should have been written out because he didn't seem to have a place after s4? Not buying it, sorry. And I'm looking at this from a Buffy perspective, not from my opinion that Spike is a great character whom I love.

If we're particularly talking about s5, one of the main themes of that season was the "death is your gift" theme. Spike's story was just a sub-plot IMO. I don't see how Spike falling in love with Buffy twisted the story of Dawn as the key, Buffy trying to protect Dawn from Glory, and Buffy figuring out her destiny as the slayer. I do think Spike's subplot began to connect with this theme in "Intervention," but that's just good writing IMO. In that episode, on her path to discovering that death is her gift, Buffy learned she was "full of love," although she began to doubt if she was capable of love (due to being the slayer). And that was based on previous episodes in the season. Later, we truly saw that Buffy was "full of love" when she forgave Spike (this monster, this evil soulless thing) for the Buffybot, and was actually moved by his actions of protecting her and Dawn from Glory. As a result, Buffy knew she could count on Spike in her battle against Glory.

Don't you think you are cheating a little bit when you talk only about S5? 🙂 It was mostly a prelude to Spike hijacking the show, S6-7 is when the real damage happened. Still, a good argument can be made that the story was indeed twisted in order to fit Poor Spikey into it even in S5:

- Riley's departure. I have probably mentioned this way too many times but still, I think it's important to mention how suspiciously convenient that Riley starts to lose the plot in the very same episode Spike finds out his love...I mean wet dream for Buffy.
- Most crucially, Spike's continued presence around the Scoobies. Why is he there, really? He betrayed them to Adam and gets a free pass for some arcane reason then continues to push his luck again and again. Now, my opinion for Spike's intelligence isn't exactly high but the guy is supposed to be a survivor. Taunting Buffy, Riley, Xander, Giles, etc again and again is not behaviour one would expect from a survivor. Nor is kidnapping Buffy then wondering why everybody is pissed at him. Really, those events make everybody look ridiculous, Spike included. It's like writing a cop show where the the hero knows where the infamous criminal is, has enough evidence to arrest him, can't stand him, yet never goes through with it, despite the culprit dropping by every other day to make fun of the cop. It's something you expect to see only in sitcoms. It's as if someone told Spike he is untouchable.
- He screwed up the mythos of the show with his "love" for Buffy

Spike's story was always the sub-plot. It wasn't the driving factor. Also, even if Spike came more into the story, he wasn't the only character that did so. I think although Buffy is the main character, the series had amazing elements of ensemble casting. All the characters interacted together, which made them all important at some point or another. So, to say one character destroyed the show and suddenly become the writers' main intention, I don't buy it for a second and don't think I ever will.

Okay, so I challenge you to find five peopld who like S6-7 a lot and don't like Spike at all. I mean, if it wasn't all about Spike this should be easy, right?

 

[Flannen]

By accurate, I meant toward the arguments like "Spike took over the show," or "the story suddenly revolved around Spike." Personally, I get offended by those arguments because I love Buffy the character the most. I saw how the main plot always revolved around Buffy and her journey. Spike's story was always the sub-plot. It wasn't the driving factor. Also, even if Spike came more into the story, he wasn't the only character that did so. I think although Buffy is the main character, the series had amazing elements of ensemble casting. All the characters interacted together, which made them all important at some point or another. So, to say one character destroyed the show and suddenly become the writers' main intention, I don't buy it for a second and don't think I ever will.

Okay, I can understand that but words like 'accurate' are, personally, far too close to the word 'correct' and that is what I have an issue with.

I do get your point above but I really don't think you should be offended by it and I'm sorry if you are. Although it sounds more like you're offended FOR Buffy lol 😉 I probably sound like a broken record here but if that's how someone feels about the show then that's how they feel. I agree that it had great ensemble acting but I feel it lacks in S7. I missed it. I missed them all sitting around in the library or the magic shop or Giles house hashing out ideas and making with the plans. And I guess in some ways I blame a lot of that on how Spike was used in S7.

And, lastly, I did post a little way back to condemn my use of the words 'took over' because it was taken way too seriously. I don't think Spike became the main character, I don't think he became the writer's main intention. My issue is that he became more important than the other Scoobies. I can appreciate WHY he did but it meant that I spent a large part of season 7 missing what I loved about the show that was now lacking. I hate to watch a TV lose what I fell in love with and unfortunately, that happened with BtVS for me.

 

[StarSlayer]

Don't you think you are cheating a little bit when you talk only about S5? 🙂 It was mostly a prelude to Spike hijacking the show, S6-7 is when the real damage happened. Still, a good argument can be made that the story was indeed twisted in order to fit Poor Spikey into it even in S5:

I mentioned s5 because I think you mentioned Spike's love for Buffy started to twist the storyline, which began in s5, and I responded to that. If we're talking about s6, one of the main themes was "life as the big bad," and Buffy experienced this the most since coming back from heaven. Her relationship with Spike was a sub-plot that connected to this theme and I've discussed that before in other s6 threads. If we're talking about s7, the main plot was Buffy and her war against the First, and gathering the potentials. Again, her relationship with Spike was a sub-plot, that connected to the overall main storyline. And all those things you mentioned about 5, I know I've discussed before so I don't want to go into again. I don't see how Spike falling in love with Buffy screwed up the mythos of the show. IMO, it expanded upon it.

Okay, so I challenge you to find five peopld who like S6-7 a lot and don't like Spike at all. I mean, if it wasn't all about Spike this should be easy, right?

Sorry, I have an exam to study for, so I don't have the time right now. 🙂