Why the Spike hate?

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I was a huge Spike fan when he first showed up. The working class, punk rebel who rebelled against the hokey mysticism of the Master's group and did things his way. This is the guy that killed The Annoying One, for which most fans are eternally grateful. And yet his love for Drusilla gave him something of a poetic heart.

I wasn't crazy about the chip-in-the-head idea, nor I am a biggest Spuffy fan in the world. But I went along with these developments, he was still Spike, and still entertaining.

Season 7 and the re-souling is what killed him. First he became another Angel, destined to weep over his past crimes - only with an added touch of insanity, for some strange reason. But then after a few episodes, he was seemingly over it? The character was written inconsistently, and became overexposed, eclipsing the original core characters.

Plus, I am sort of annoyed that Spike seemed to be there to be Shirtless Spike for many episodes. Even James Marsters got tired of that. In 7 years of Buffy how many times did we see the girls in bikinis? Once, I think. There really is a double standard there ...
 
Flannen
Flannen
[No message]
I mentioned s5 because I think you mentioned Spike's love for Buffy started to twist the storyline, which began in s5, and I responded to that. If we're talking about s6, one of the main themes was "life as the big bad," and Buffy experienced this the most since coming back from heaven. Her relationship with Spike was a sub-plot that connected to this theme and I've discussed that before in other s6 threads. If we're talking about s7, the main plot was Buffy and her war against the First, and gathering the potentials. Again, her relationship with Spike was a sub-plot, that connected to the overall main storyline.

Sub-plots? They look rather close to main plots to me. Semantics aside, my argument is that the show was changed to accommodate Spike - not so much his sheer screentime but the entire "feel" of the show. Pre-lovey-dovey Spike the show was about friendships, post-S5 it's all about shipping. And while, this might have happened even if Spike wasn't in the show I am irrationally inclined to blame him, not least because I believe the breakdown of Buffy's friendship was quite deliberate because she would never have turned to Spike. Before Spike joined the gang, our heroes held a definite moral highground. After that they didn't seem to see anything wrong with aiding and abetting murderers. Also, Spike pretty much personifies the writers' refusal to allow Buffy to learn from her mistakes. She went through hell because she couldn't kill Angel, similar thing happened with Faith but now suddenly she is all too willing to give the ruthless murderer a million chances? Right...And oh, wait, shock and horror, S8 has the same theme, albeit with a different culprit. Does any of you expect Buffy to learn her lesson this time? Yes, me neither.
 
Okay, I can understand that but words like 'accurate' are, personally, far too close to the word 'correct' and that is what I have an issue with.

Maybe I used the wrong choice of words, so I apologize for that.

I do get your point above but I really don't think you should be offended by it and I'm sorry if you are. Although it sounds more like you're offended FOR Buffy lol 😉 I probably sound like a broken record here but if that's how someone feels about the show then that's how they feel. I agree that it had great ensemble acting but I feel it lacks in S7. I missed it. I missed them all sitting around in the library or the magic shop or Giles house hashing out ideas and making with the plans. And I guess in some ways I blame a lot of that on how Spike was used in S7.

You're right in that if that's how you feel, then that's how you feel. 🙂 That is something you can't change in anyone. With s7, I guess I just don't see it that way. As much as I loved the previous seasons where they would sit down and discuss ideas, I felt it was just a different time now. They weren't students, or young teenagers anymore, but adults, even soldiers, that had to face a real evil. I love s7 because of that. I love how it connects the old school/nostalgia feelings to the present ones. It's very much like real life IMO. Don't we want to go back to a time that seemed in hindsight more simple than the now? Sadly, we can't. We have to face our present obstacles. Ok, now I'm rambling, lol. 🙂 My point I guess is the feelings I had in s7 were great, and the way Spike was used was only a fraction of those feelings.

And, lastly, I did post a little way back to condemn my use of the words 'took over' because it was taken way too seriously. I don't think Spike became the main character, I don't think he became the writer's main intention. My issue is that he became more important than the other Scoobies. I can appreciate WHY he did but it meant that I spent a large part of season 7 missing what I loved about the show that was now lacking. I hate to watch a TV lose what I fell in love with and unfortunately, that happened with BtVS for me.

I've read the "Spike took over" argument even before coming to the BB, so I'm not singling anyone out here. 🙂 I even heard about this argument before I started watching BtVS, lol. I actually expected to see that since it was a big issue for many fans, but when I watched, I didn't see it. Maybe it's because I watched the show when it wasn't on the air, but I didn't get the feeling he took over or even became more important than the other Scoobies, even in s7. There were a lot of great little moments between Buffy, Xander, and Willow for instance in s7 that I adore. I think Spike became as important as the Scoobies. His big moment of course was when he died closing the hellmouth, and his relationship with Buffy was a big part of that IMO. But, again. That's just the feelings I get and I respect if others don't get those feelings. 🙂

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Sub-plots? They look rather close to main plots to me. Semantics aside, my argument is that the show was changed to accommodate Spike - not so much his sheer screentime but the entire "feel" of the show. Pre-lovey-dovey Spike the show was about friendships, post-S5 it's all about shipping. And while, this might have happened even if Spike wasn't in the show I am irrationally inclined to blame him, not least because I believe the breakdown of Buffy's friendship was quite deliberate because she would never have turned to Spike. Before Spike joined the gang, our heroes held a definite moral highground. After that they didn't seem to see anything wrong with aiding and abetting murderers. Also, Spike pretty much personifies the writers' refusal to allow Buffy to learn from her mistakes. She went through hell because she couldn't kill Angel, similar thing happened with Faith but now suddenly she is all too willing to give the ruthless murderer a million chances? Right...And oh, wait, shock and horror, S8 has the same theme, albeit with a different culprit. Does any of you expect Buffy to learn her lesson this time? Yes, me neither.

Play another round of kick the Spike? Lol! Like I said, I don't see how the show changed that much to accommodate him or the feel of the show because I didn't get that feeling. I still saw themes of friendship post s5 as well. It may have been throughout tougher times, but isn't that the hallmark of a great friendship? Going through the good times and the bad? And I know I've discussed the whole "Buffy should have killed Spike although he had a chip" with you before, so I think we have to agree to disagree on that one. 🙂
 
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prophecygrrl
[No message]
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zobothehobo
Once again, you take the words outof my mouth
even heard about this argument before I started watching BtVS, lol. I actually expected to see that since it was a big issue for many fans, but when I watched, I didn't see it.
I think that may be why you didnt see it actually; because you were expecting something big and noticeable. I think expecting certain events or things of that nature affects how the end product is received. Because you heard all of the outrage, you expect something, well, outrageous, and it was not that. But for those that watched the series as it aired, and were not privy to following episodes, arcs, etc it was a more subtle, episode by episode that Spike became the focus of the show, and it occurred over several seasons. I think possibly watching them online or via DVD can also 'soften the blow' as you can watch multiple episodes at a time, as opposed to waiting a week or months for something to play out. Waiting a month (for sweeps week, etc) to find out what happened with (insert) character only to find it was a 'Spike episode' seemed to affect me.
 
To be honest with you.. I do not think that it even is possible to hate spike - at least I think so.
In my opinion.. He is the most perfect character on BtVS.. he is so bloody awesome as a "Big Bad".. He is even more awesome as chipped.. and *so* pathetic in a beautiful was when he falls in love with Buffy.
 
Z
zobothehobo
[No message]
I think that may be why you didnt see it actually; because you were expecting something big and noticeable. I think expecting certain events or things of that nature affects how the end product is received. Because you heard all of the outrage, you expect something, well, outrageous, and it was not that. But for those that watched the series as it aired, and were not privy to following episodes, arcs, etc it was a more subtle, episode by episode that Spike became the focus of the show, and it occurred over several seasons. I think possibly watching them online or via DVD can also 'soften the blow' as you can watch multiple episodes at a time, as opposed to waiting a week or months for something to play out. Waiting a month (for sweeps week, etc) to find out what happened with (insert) character only to find it was a 'Spike episode' seemed to affect me.

Well, I knew other spoilers going in, and that didn't effect my viewing experience. I know that may sound hard to believe or understand, but I can put aside all those things and watch with an unbiased eye. So, same thing with hearing about that argument. I put it aside when I watched the show. 🙂 But, maybe watching the episodes online softened the blow sort of speak. I can't speak for those who watched the show during the original run. Either way, I didn't see that many Spike centric episodes when I watched. 🙂

All right, I should go back to studying. I've spent too much time here, lol!
 
So, same thing with hearing about that argument. I put it aside when I watched the show.

But you could not have put it aside that much because in the previous post you said you expected to see it; if you "actually expected to see" it then it really wasn't put aside.
 
But you could not have put it aside that much because in the previous post you said you expected to see it; if you "actually expected to see" it then it really wasn't put aside.

I should clarify then. I can watch something and put aside what I hear about it if I want to watch with an open mind. When I'm done watching, I think about what I just saw, often to the point of analyzing, and come to my own conclusions. When I'm done analyzing, and I don't come to conclusions I may have expected to come to because that conclusion is one that many others have, I often am surprised. Yet, based on what I just saw and concluded on my own, I don't change my opinion too easily. Hope that makes sense. 🙂
 
You can watch it with an open mind, that I understand, but I think its bogus that you can watch it without it somehow affecting. Either consciously of sub- you will know about it and it will be on your mind. But, saying you still watch it with an open mind I can agree that is possible.
 
Yet, based on what I just saw and concluded on my own, I don't change my opinion too easily. Hope that makes sense. 🙂

I'm struggling with this. And I'm going to come out and say it. I'm not easily offended, I'm really not and usually I let a lot go over my head but this does put me ever so slightly in the offended camp. There's been some things said in this thread, and not just by you, that suggest that if you don't like Spike, or you've been affected or changed opinions because of the fandom, then we're...I don't know...weak-minded? Fickle? Easily persuaded (in a negative way?).

That's how it's beginning to sound. And it's for reasons like this I was hesitant to post in the first place.
 
Kean
Kean
[No message]
You can watch it with an open mind, that I understand, but I think its bogus that you can watch it without it somehow affecting. Either consciously of sub- you will know about it and it will be on your mind. But, saying you still watch it with an open mind I can agree that is possible.

That's your opinion, but I know how my brain works. I watched and studied films and TV shows from many different viewpoints, so I learned how to do it, even if you think it's bogus.
 
That's your opinion, but I know how my brain works. I watched and studied films and TV shows from many different viewpoints, so I learned how to do it, even if you think it's bogus.

But you do realize there is a difference between watching and studying a film and being able to go all Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and erase any knowledge of events, right? I am not saying knowing these things tainted your 'studying' or how you saw the show/characters/book but they did affect how you experienced it. I am not saying you in general, mind you, I am saying we.. that is how we work. Thats why horoscopes are so damn popular and psychics are 'accurate' about seeing the future.
 
I'm struggling with this. And I'm going to come out and say it. I'm not easily offended, I'm really not and usually I let a lot go over my head but this does put me ever so slightly in the offended camp. There's been some things said in this thread, and not just by you, that suggest that if you don't like Spike, or you've been affected or changed opinions because of the fandom, then we're...I don't know...weak-minded? Fickle? Easily persuaded (in a negative way?).

That's how it's beginning to sound. And it's for reasons like this I was hesitant to post in the first place.

No, not at all. Please don't think that. I was simply saying how I approach watching something. I'm not trying to compare myself to others and I apologize if it comes across that way. Of course people are going to see different things when they watch. That's the beauty of this medium. That we can see one thing, but have many interpretations. I'm not at all saying or implying people who changed their opinions about Spike are weak-minded or easily persuadable. I simply just want to understand because I see something different. As I said, what are they seeing? That's all. And you shared what you saw which I greatly appreciated. 🙂

---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

But you do realize there is a difference between watching and studying a film and being able to go all Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and erase any knowledge of events, right? I am not saying knowing these things tainted your 'studying' or how you saw the show/characters/book but they did affect how you experienced it. I am not saying you in general, mind you, I am saying we.. that is how we work. Thats why horoscopes are so damn popular and psychics are 'accurate' about seeing the future.

First, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is an AWESOME film so back off, lol. 😛 Second, of course there's a difference between watching and studying a film or TV show. I have my guilty pleasure movies just as much as the next person. Even films I've studied, I can go back and simply re-watch them, not even thinking about how my professor said to view it. It's really hard to explain, but you clearly think the argument somewhat affected my viewing experience although I say it didn't. You weren't with me when I watched or in my brain, so you can't know. You can give me all the psychological arguments you want, but it won't change anything. Can we agree to disagree? 🙂
 
Flannen
Flannen
I recognise that it wasn't your intention and you didn't mean for it to sound like that but I just wanted to point out that it is how it sounds to me. And it's not just you, you just tipped me over the edge ;) (I'm kidding btw!)
I would think it problematic if the fandom affected your opinion more than the source material itself. If that's the case, why continue to discuss the source material (i.e. individual episodes, characters) in the first place? Some of the replies mention how they liked Spike but the fandom made them dislike him. I personally find that a shame, not because people dislike Spike, but because the fandom contributed more to that dislike than the actual source material. Again, not looking to slam anyone's opinion here.
 
I think it's been addressed quite well by others that it isn't as straight up as it's being made out. It is not the fandom alone that has developed (because I do see it as a development) my opinions on the character. But it offered a new way to view the source material and that I simply did not agree with and as Taake has already said, the way it is staunchly argued as being right led me to begin to dislike his actions and behaviour EVEN MORE than I did.

But I'm having to continually repeat myself and defend my opinions which is not what I signed up for so I'm going to bow out for now.
 
Abbeycat
Abbeycat
You shouldn't have to defend or repeat yourself on your opinions
It would be difficult for me to innumerate all of the reasons why I dislike Spike, but I'll try. The first time I watched the show, I liked him a lot in seasons two through four, but for every subsequent rewatch, my opinion has been informed by what I know is going to happen later. Despite not having liked him since the first time I watched season five, it used to be easy for me to find him entertaining anyway. Ever since I got into online fandom and read stuff by the Spike fans who think he's so wonderful and that people like me who don't like him and feel extremely justified in that opinion "just don't understand him" or some other dismissive crap like that, though, my already strong dislike solidified into something much closer to outright loathing. I hesitate to actually call it loathing, however, as I reserve that term for Kennedy.

This one might just be me overthinking things to a ridiculous level, but I can't help imagining how horrible he must smell all the time what with how much he smokes. Ew. I have zero tolerance for that smell, and I always find it weird when the other characters fail to comment on how gross it is, considering that, with the exception of Giles in his Ripper days, none of them has ever smoked. And I'm not too fond of the drinking either, but I don't remember that being quite as regular as the smoking. Either way, the result is that I don't like some of his defining personal habits, so we're already off to a bad start.

Okay, moving on to the stuff of more substance now. Spike is a jerk, with or without his soul. And considering how intuitive he seems to be, there's no excuse for it. His insensitive remarks aren't made carelessly like Cordelia's or cluelessly like Anya's, they're deliberate. He phrases his comments in a blunt and insulting way, even when the point he makes with them is insightful (or perhaps especially then). This may be entertaining, but that's only from the perspective of an audience member. To the other characters (who, unlike Spike, are the actual protagonists), it isn't so funny, and I'm surprised they were all able to take his crap for so long without staking him. The endearing moments weren't enough to make up for it and generally made everything else seem worse by comparison. Also, does he ever treat anyone he's meeting for the first time in a non-hostile fashion? I can't recall a single time that he didn't open with hostility.

Now, in seasons two through four, I don't mind that he's a jerk, because he's a villain, so, yeah. Not every villain can be like the Mayor, nor would I want them to be. The snark makes Spike very amusing to watch and stops me from getting too annoyed at the good guys for failing to stake him. But after a while, it gets old, and yet the Scoobies still aren't staking him. Being harmless against his will makes him neither innocent nor human, nor is it the same as having a soul. There is no logic to not staking him, and harboring him is the Scoobies' first step in the direction of moral bankruptcy (not that I think they made it all the way there--or, not all of them, anyway). Once Spike has a soul, he is no longer eligible to reapply for his Free to Act Like a Jerk pass from me.

At the same time that the snark starts really getting old for me (season five), other aspects of Spike's behavior start to seriously freak me out. His "love" (and I use sarcastic quote marks) for Buffy manifests in sabotaging her relationship with Riley (not that I was sorry to see it end) and several varieties of intensely creepy stalking. And while I'm on that subject, since someone else brought it up and I don't want to let it go unaddressed, I don't think his stalking compares at all to whatever Angel(us) did. Angelus was stalking her as a predator stalks his prey for the purpose of messing with her head, and Angel's "lurking" was out of a desire to make sure she was okay and, occasionally, to pass information to her. Spike, on the other hand, goes sneaking around nicking her knickers, making a creepy shrine, and using Harmony to indulge in creepy fantasies (I can't stand Harmony either, but I still felt awful for her during those scenes). And then he surpasses all previously known definitions of creepy by threatening Warren into making a robot version of her, and having sex with it. I cannot express my horrified disgust strongly enough.

And then there's season six. I can't even watch this season unless I disengage from my emotional reactions (horror, outrage, etc.) and attempt to be objective, while alternating it with episodes of Angel season three. Every character, with the possible exceptions of Buffy, Giles, Tara, and Jonathan, becomes less likable for me in season six. Buffy's downward spiral at least has a legitimate cause that was beyond her control: being ripped from heaven. Also, she knows perfectly well she's in a downward spiral, hates herself for it (unlike Willow, who eagerly jumps headfirst into her own and rides it like a slide on a playground), and then pulls herself back together and soldiers bravely on with a smile on her face, having conquered her demons and learned to love living again. Buffy is *awesome*.

...No thanks to Spike. He takes advantage of her alienation from her friends and her fear that she came back wrong to drag her into the darkness with him, because he knows he can only get at her when she's alone and vulnerable. All while calling it love. Last season he tried to make her admit to some tiny speck of feelings for him by threatening to sic Drusilla on her if she didn't. This season he tries to convince her that having sex with him means she loves him. He doesn't care if she hates herself, so long as she loves him. If she *has* to hate herself in order to love him, that works too. And he can't accept that she doesn't. He doesn't want her to be happy, he wants her to be *his*. Once again, he's soulless, so it's not like it would be logical to expect better of him, but it's still appalling, especially when he claims to have changed.

The AR is in a league all on its own. Sufficeth it to say that it does nothing to improve my opinion of Spike, and that I don't think "despicable" is a strong enough adjective for him in that scene.

Then comes the soul quest. I don't believe for a second that he wants to get his soul back because he feels remorse, because you *can't* feel remorse without a soul, dangit! What I do believe is that he feels frustrated to his wit's end that nothing he tries with Buffy works and all he's succeeded in doing is making her hate him and possibly even be willing to kill him at last, but he does know that having a soul worked for Angel (and continued to do so even after a period of soullessness), so he thinks that it must therefore also work for him (never considering that there may have been many other things about Angel that worked for him apart from the mere fact of soulfulness). He still wants to force Buffy to love him, but now he knows that he's crossed a line, and the only way to get around that is to get a soul. He knows she won't hold him responsible for what he just did anymore if he has one.

The entire series of attempts to force Buffy to love him or to admit that she loves him is strongly reminiscent of his attempts to do the same to Drusilla in the earlier seasons, with *forcing* the woman in question to feel something they don't necessarily feel being the recurring theme. Why he expected it to work on a Slayer who has hated him for years when it didn't work on a crazy soulless vampire who'd already been with him for over a century, I will never understand.

And now we get to season seven, and Spike has a soul. I do not dislike him while he has a soul for the reasons I dislike him when he doesn't have one, unless they carry over (the jerkiness certainly does), nor do I blame him for anything he did pre-soul, because that wouldn't be fair--I don't hold Angelus against Angel, after all (though, as Angelus is my favorite villain of all time, it wouldn't necessarily have the same effect if I did).

But soulful Spike gives me his own reasons not to like him. I heartily agree with whoever said they don't believe he feels remorse, he just feels sorry for himself. Now that he actually *has* a soul, he realizes that he had no idea what he was signing up for by getting one, and clearly regrets it for a while. But then he slides from that back into the attitude of the old Spike and denies responsibility and guilt. If this is just his way of dealing with the guilt he really does feel, then he needs a new way of dealing, because this one is immature, something a being well into his second century of existence has no business being as often as Spike is.

What he says to Wood about Nikki is beyond horrible, and I was astonished to see Buffy defend this unapologetic creep against the son of a fellow Slayer he murdered and Giles, to the extent of threatening the former and creating a permanent breach in her relationship with the latter. Spike has successfully manipulated her into feeling responsible for his soul. Ugh. She picked a terrible reason to finally start standing up to her friends. No, soulful Spike does not deserve to die for soulless Spike's murder of Nikki Wood or anyone else, but Robin at least has as much reason for hating Spike and wanting to avenge his mother's death as Giles had for hating Angel in season three, and Buffy wasn't objecting then, even though Angel was extremely remorseful but Spike isn't at all.

Okay, "Chosen". Spike gets hailed all over the place for his heroic sacrifice in this one. Why? This is probably a case of where the fandom's interpretation annoys me more than Spike does. He had no idea what the amulet was going to do. None of them did. If they had, they could have just sent Spike into the Hellmouth by himself and not risked anyone else dying. (That's why I hate plot devices like the amulet. They make the efforts of everyone else seem pointless.) All Spike thought he was signing up for was certain death in battle, just like the others. Points for that, of course, but no more than Buffy and Faith get, and less than non-superpowered humans like Xander and Dawn get. Once the amulet fires up, can he even move? Every time I watch that scene, it looks to me like he's kind of immobilized. Dying to save the world was never what he chose to do at a point when he actually had a choice. He merely accepts what's unavoidable, so"¦whatever. He goes on to undermine his own sacrifice in "Just Rewards", when he tries to blame Angel for his death and delivers that "I don't give a piss about atonement" line. Which means that even *he* is far from considering it a selfless act of heroism, so I don't understand why so many fans insist that that's what it was.

The fight in "Destiny" might be my least favorite soulful Spike moment of all. He not only rejects responsibility for his actions while soulless (only the evil ones, mind you, because he can totally take credit for just the good ones without being a hypocrite), but he actually blames them on Angel. By his own logic, this doesn't make sense. If he isn't guilty of his soulless actions (which he isn't, I agree), then Angel darn well isn't responsible for the actions of Angelus, let alone the actions of Spike. He also says some extremely disrespectful things about Buffy, shoving his season six "relationship" with her in Angel's face. So is he only sorry about what he put her through when she's actually present? This is how he talks about the woman he supposedly loves? I never believed he really loved her before he got his soul, but I did think that changed once he had it. This scene would suggest otherwise.

The first time I can really believe he's sorry for what he did pre-soul and not attempting to shove the blame onto someone else doesn't come until the end of "Damage" when he's talking to Angel. It shouldn't have taken getting his hands chopped off to get him to that point, but I was glad *something* could.

I've always been a huge Angel fan, to the extent that I tend to view lots of aspects of the Buffyverse the way he does. If something annoys him, it annoys me on his behalf. Angel finds Spike an irksome hindrance most of the time, and I agree. I actually sympathize with Angel so much that I can't even see the humor in most of his conflicts with Spike, even though I know they're meant to be funny. Mostly, they just annoy me and make me want to smack Spike for bugging Angel.

Another thing I don't like about him (with or without a soul) is that chameleon personality that others have mentioned, and the way it seems like he uses it to mask how needy, insecure, and pathetic he really is underneath. I'd probably feel sorry for him if I found his façade likable, but I don't, so I mostly just think he's weak, false, and immature. So, pretty much, at the end of the day, all he has going for him in my book is his comic relief value in seasons two through four (and, sure, the occasional zinger from the later seasons, whenever they don't just annoy me), his willingness to die fighting the good fight beginning in "Chosen" and restated even better in "Not Fade Away", and the actual maturing he does from "Damage" on--which is then negated somewhat by that charming "as long as it's not you" parting shot to Angel.

And that's all directly from the character, not the actor or the writing. I actually have a great deal of respect for James Marsters, and even when I have strong objections to the writing or the plot for whatever reason, I still try to judge the story for itself. I didn't really notice all that stuff others have pointed out about Spike crowding some of the Scoobies out of the story, because, like bad acting (unless it's *really* bad, otherwise I just assume that's how the character is supposed to be) that's not the kind of thing I generally notice anyway.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Of course you agree with me; I am agreeable and highly intelligent. lol
Kana
Kana
I so wanna comment on this when I get the time, because it does raise some interesting issues
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mayfever
I do agree with most of what you said, except I still like Spike ;)
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goodbyetonight
[No message]
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Zeppo
Uh, wow. This was so thorough and made me see things I never did before. Well spoken!
What I do believe is that he feels frustrated to his wit's end that nothing he tries with Buffy works and all he's succeeded in doing is making her hate him and possibly even be willing to kill him at last, but he does know that having a soul worked for Angel, so he thinks that it must therefore also work for him. He still wants to force Buffy to love him, but now he knows that he's crossed a line, and the only way to get around that is to get a soul. He knows she won't hold him responsible for what he just did anymore if he has one.
Thank you. Thats exactly how I see it as well.
 
Taaroko
Taaroko
You're welcome! ^_^
But soulful Spike gives me his own reasons not to like him. I heartily agree with whoever said they don't believe he feels remorse, he just feels sorry for himself. Now that he actually *has* a soul, he realizes that he had no idea what he was signing up for by getting one, and clearly regrets it for a while.

And Angel didn't spend like 20 years doing the exact same thing? Then agree to kill a bunch of people to keep Darla happy?
 
The way Spike deals with his guilt - brushing it aside, blaming Angel, etc. - is very much a coping mechanism. The guilt a vampire feels after being ensouled is immobilizing, which is evident from the fact that Spike goes mad for several months in the school basement. By dealing with his guilt the way he does, Spike is able to - at least for now - keep fighting the good fight. Not condoning his behavior here, just pointing out its reasons.

Also, in relation to Spuffy and Spike seeking out his soul because he loved Buffy, some fans see this as something horribly selfish and not positive at all. But didn't Willow try restoring Angel's soul in season 2 because she understood and respected how much Buffy loved Angel? And isn't it her love for Dawn that prompted Buffy to protect Dawn and even sacrifice herself for her, despite it being the more rational thing to just simply off the little brat? Just because these characters have a conscience, doesn't mean love can't be a powerful motivator - in fact, it should. And for a character WITHOUT a conscience, love is the only way to go.
 
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soulunsung
[No message]
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prophecygrrl
Whoo, ITA :D
S
StarSlayer
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WakingNightmare, watch Angel in the first moments after he got his soul in "Becoming" and tell me he wasn't already crippled by remorse. And what twenty years? He left Darla for good in 1900. 1900-1898=2. Not 20. If you mean what Giles said in "Angel", there's no reason to trust a vague account in the Watchers' Diaries more than the flashbacks we got later on. He was cursed in 1898, decided he was done with Darla and with trying to be Angelus when he saved that baby in 1900 (and he never saw Darla again until 1997), and arrived in America in 1902. Unlike Spike, he didn't have an example of how an ensouled vampire could be good, nor did he have Buffy's support. Is it any wonder that he would turn to Darla first, when she was the only thing he knew that wasn't 150 years dead and gone?

And The Unspoken, love *can't* be Spike's motivator before he has a soul because he is incapable of feeling the kind of real selfless love necessary to drive such actions. If he could, there would be little point to getting a soul, and all the evil he did without one would be that much worse, because he was supposedly able to choose otherwise all along. Whenever another character does something out of love, that's really what it is. Also, I realize that brushing it all aside and blaming Angel are part of his coping mechanism, I just can't respect that kind of coping mechanism. It's selfish, childish, and hypocritical.
 
I
Icarium
You nailed it in your second paragraph
S
StarSlayer
Who says love *can't* be a motivating factor? Vampires (except Angelus) can love quite well, if not wisely ;)
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