Why the Xander hate?

[Icarium]

So much rage at this scene. Because it's clear that his problem is that they were having a relationship behind his back, not simply that Buffy trusted Spike, since she (and most of the Scoobies, including Xander) has been doing that since like, the fifth season. It's the relationship, the sex (his disgust at which is seen in Entropy, in that same scene I quoted earlier), that bothers him.

And this has nothing to do with Xander having already seen what happens when Buffy mixes her calling with her personal life? If Spike's chip stops working it's Buffy who would have to deal with him. Last time her boyfriend went berserk the result was many dead people. Of course Xander would rather not see a repetition of that. And yes, he is hurt that Buffy needs to hide that from him, especially considering the previous time the gang thought Buffy was sleeping with Spike they thought it was a silly idea but tried to be somewhat supportive nevertheless. "What were you thinking is a pretty natural reaction", IMO, although he should be asking Joss that, not Buffy. 😀

Parker isn't one of her best friends though. He's someone she wanted to hurt, and justifiably so. He intentionally mislead her and treated her like trash. I don't think Buffy's fantasy about hurting/showing up Parker is comparable to Xander's fantasy about hurting Buffy.

Hurting Buffy? The who in the what now?

He's not entitled to affection or love from Buffy, but he acts as if she deserves to be hurt.

He does?

Maybe, but his tone is incredibly dismissive and even in 'Dead Man's Party' he likens her situation with Angel to 'boy troubles'. It's unfair of him to judge her in that way, IMO. I don't think any rational person could ever call what Buffy went through 'boy troubles'. Something obviously traumatic happened to her in Becoming, even if he didn't know what actually went down. I can't help but think that he wouldn't have so condescendingly dismissed Buffy's feelings if he actually respected her to make her own choices. Buffy messes up, but it's clear after Passion that she carries Ms. Calendar's death on her own shoulders. She's embraced her duty as the Slayer before, even sacrificing her own life in 'Prophecy Girl'. She really doesn't need Xander to judge her so harshly. And yeah, I get that it's harsh and it's a tense situation, but does he ever apologize? No...

Well, Buffy thinks she needs Xander. I would argue that the last thing she needs is a yes-man. Buffy isn't infallible. As for respecting her choices, he did that for months while Angel kept on killing. Everyone has a breaking point. Buffy's choices had cost many lives already, I can't really blame Xander for wanting to put the whole nightmare behind him. And Buffy's tone is just as dismissive of Xander's viewpoint in DMP and Revelations as his was of hers. Yes, two wrongs don't make it right but why is it that Xander is held to some impossibly high standard while Buffy gets the benefit of the doubt? I don't see many people claiming that Buffy doesn't respect Xander after having compared his right to talk to that of "You by the dip" in DMP and accused him of "spying on her" in Revelations. They were fighting. Stupid things were said, doesn't mean all of them were meant. When push comes to shove Xander does follow Buffy's lead to the bitter end, so he must be quite a schizophrenic if he does that and at the same time thinks he knows best and how Buffy can't make a good decision to save her life. As for not apologizing, a lot of times it's implicit and a lot of times not even that. Xander is hardly the only one who does it and considering that every time there is a Scooby quarrel he is not the only one who rants at the others either there is an awful lot of apologies we might demand if we want to be pedantic. Did Buffy apologize for the things she did in When She Was Bad? Nope.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Hurting Buffy? The who in the what now?

I meant the making her cry part in his fantasy. It seems like he gets this kind of perverse pleasure out of it.

Well, Buffy thinks she needs Xander. I would argue that the last thing she needs is a yes-man. Buffy isn't infallible. As for respecting her choices, he did that for months while Angel kept on killing. Everyone has a breaking point. Buffy's choices had cost many lives already, I can't really blame Xander for wanting to put the whole nightmare behind him. And Buffy's tone is just as dismissive of Xander's viewpoint in DMP and Revelations as he is hers. Yes, two wrongs don't make it right but why is it that Xander is held to some impossibly high standard while Buffy gets the benefit of the doubt? I don't see many people claiming that Buffy doesn't respect Xander after having compared his right to talk to that of "You by the dip" in DMP and accused him of "spying on her" in Revelations. They were fighting. Stupid things were said, doesn't mean all of them were meant. When push comes to shove Xander does follow Buffy's lead to the bitter end, so he must be quite a schizophrenic if he does that and at the same time thinks he knows best and how Buffy can't make a good decision to save her life. As for not apologizing, a lot of times it's implicit and a lot of times not even that. Xander is hardly the only one who does it and considering that every time there is a Scooby quarrel he is not the only one who rants at the others either there is an awful lot of apologies we might demand if we want to be pedantic. Did Buffy apologize for the things she did in When She Was Bad? Nope.

I'm on the Scoobies' side when it comes to her keeping secrets about Angel in Season 3 actually, so I can't really blame him there in Revelations. But in DMP, I don't think he has a right to talk to her like that. He's butting in on an argument between Buffy and her mother. If he's got issues, then he's got issues, but he doesn't belong in that conversation. Particularly when a significant factor into why Buffy left in 'Becoming' in the first place is because Xander's lie insinuated that everybody, even Willow, wanted her to kill Angel. Like anyone would understand her pain over killing Angel after that? Really not likely, IMO.

When I mentioned apologizing, I meant that while of course not everything is shown on screen, it gets annoying when he gets away with SO many things. We have to assume it's implicit, if an apology is even there at all. Sometimes he's never found out- his lie to Buffy in 'Becoming' doesn't surface again until Selfless in Season 7, and even then that's kind of a throwaway line.

OH and his lie is a whole 'nother issue. Does he really doubt that she wouldn't kill souled Angel if she had to? Cause she proves him dead wrong. (ha.) Him lying about trying to re-ensoul Angel is just infuriating to me because that tells me the opposite of what you said, that when push comes to shove he trusts her only enough to do things his way.

 

[Icarium]

OH and his lie is a whole 'nother issue. Does he really doubt that she wouldn't kill souled Angel if she had to? Cause she proves him dead wrong. (ha.) Him lying about trying to re-ensoul Angel is just infuriating to me because that tells me the opposite of what you said, that when push comes to shove he trusts her only enough to do things his way.

Buffy sending Angel to hell after she had won the fight and Acathla had already been activated doesn't mean she was certainly going to win if she thought she could save him, so I don't think this proves anything conclusively. For all we know without "The Lie" she might have tried to stall for time and lost.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Buffy sending Angel to hell after she had won the fight and Acathla had already been activated doesn't mean she was certainly going to win if she thought she could save him, so I don't think this proves anything conclusively. For all we know without "The Lie" she might have tried to stall for time and lost.

Maybe not definitively, but Buffy was pretty resolved at that point to kill Angelus. I don't think even the slim chance that Angel might come back would've deterred her, since she was basically considering that possibility all throughout post-Innocence Season 2 with disastrous results, hoping there's a little bit of Angel left in Angelus. She's thinking that way even up to IOEHFY, after the ghosts possess them and she realizes they're kissing. But yeah, I guess that's just my opinion there. Not conclusive exactly, but I think there's more support for her killing Angelus even if she knew the truth than if not.

 

[The Unspoken]

Particularly when a significant factor into why Buffy left in 'Becoming' in the first place is because Xander's lie insinuated that everybody, even Willow, wanted her to kill Angel. Like anyone would understand her pain over killing Angel after that? Really not likely, IMO.

Thanks to Angelus, Kendra was just killed, Giles was kidnapped (and possibly killed) and Willow was almost knocked into a coma. And you don't think 'kick his ass' was an appropriate response? Besides, Angel was re-ensouled anyway, so Buffy knew that Willow was on her side. Buffy ran away in spite of Willow's support, not because of a lack of it.

When I mentioned apologizing, I meant that while of course not everything is shown on screen, it gets annoying when he gets away with SO many things.

He apologizes several times to Buffy actually, like in 'Amends' and 'Seeing Red'. And what does he get away with exactly? Having an opinion that's different from Buffy's?

OH and his lie is a whole 'nother issue. Does he really doubt that she wouldn't kill souled Angel if she had to? Cause she proves him dead wrong. (ha.)

Yes, she proves him dead wrong by letting Angelus stay alive for half a school year, during which he slaughtered lots of people and attempted to suck the world into hell. (Ha!)

Him lying about trying to re-ensoul Angel is just infuriating to me because that tells me the opposite of what you said, that when push comes to shove he trusts her only enough to do things his way.

Yes, it doesn't have anything to do with the imminent threat of the world being sucked into hell.

 

[caitaintdead]

I think the worst thing that was never addressed, in my opinion, and while trying to stay un-biased, is the OMWF disaster. It's easy enough to blame bad or lazy writing for this one, but lets face it - Xander did, in all effect kill at least one person here. He summoned a demon in much the same way that Andrew did on occasion. Different situations, and while there was no malice, still a pretty juvenile, thoughtless thing to do.

 

[The Unspoken]

I think the worst thing that was never addressed, in my opinion, and while trying to stay un-biased, is the OMWF disaster. It's easy enough to blame bad or lazy writing for this one, but lets face it - Xander did, in all effect kill at least one person here. He summoned a demon in much the same way that Andrew did on occasion. Different situations, and while there was no malice, still a pretty juvenile, thoughtless thing to do.

Several people were killed, actually. And in 'Pangs', Buffy and Willow ignore Xander, who's dying from all kinds of terrible diseases. Might as well blame them for attempted negligent homicide of their best friend. Xander certainly doesn't, and he continues being their friend. All the characters suffer from this, so why bother singling out Xander?

 

[caitaintdead]

why bother singling out Xander?

Hate to point out the obvious but the thread is called "Why the Xander hate?" 🙂

 

[The Unspoken]

Hate to point out the obvious but the thread is called "Why the Xander hate?" 🙂

Well, yes, but you mentioned the incident with Sweets as something 'that was never addressed' (your words) and supposedly yet another example of how Xander gets away with so much. Nobody in the show or in the fandom ever criticizes Buffy and Willow for their attempts to get Xander killed in 'Pangs', so this is hardly something that's unique to Xander. And if it is a reason to hate Xander, then it should be a reason to hate the entire cast, since they've all exhibited such behavior at one point or another. 'Pangs' is funny, but we're clearly not supposed to take away from the episode that Buffy and Willow are sociopaths.

 

[caitaintdead]

Sorry, I must be missing something here... At what point did willow and Buffy attempt to kill Xander in pangs? I thought it was pretty clear that the whole gang was researching the factor? Its not like it was a disease that any of them could cure!

I'm in total agreeance that all of the cast did things to put each other in harms way however (and no I don't mean harmony hehe). That's simply not the issue here though so I don't want to take this topic off track.

 

[The Unspoken]

Sorry, I must be missing something here... At what point did willow and Buffy attempt to kill Xander in pangs? I thought it was pretty clear that the whole gang was researching the factor? Its not like it was a disease that any of them could cure!

I didn't say they attempted to kill him, I said they attempted to get him killed, i.e. negligent homicide. Buffy and Willow prioritize preparing Thanksgiving dinner and respecting the rights of native Americans respectively over searching for a way to cure Xander of the various deadly diseases he's afflicted with. That's pretty much the textbook example of negligent homicide. Now, I think 'Pangs' is funny, but if taken literally (like you did with Xander summoning Sweets), the implication is that Buffy and Willow are sociopaths.

 

[caitaintdead]

I didn't say they attempted to kill him, I said they attempted to get him killed, i.e. negligent homicide. Buffy and Willow prioritize preparing Thanksgiving dinner and respecting the rights of native Americans respectively over searching for a way to cure Xander of the various deadly diseases he's afflicted with. That's pretty much the textbook example of negligent homicide. Now, I think 'Pangs' is funny, but if taken literally (like you did with Xander summoning Sweets), the implication is that Buffy and Willow are sociopaths.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here. So you're saying Buffy and Willow are sociopaths or that we shouldn't take certain episodes literally?

 

[The Unspoken]

Lol, I missed this one.

Well no, Willow sleeping with Oz and Tara doesn't actually hurt him or pose a threat to him. Anya sleeping with Spike? Totally. And his indignation there is all about the fact that she had sex with him. He even explicitly says so, twice. "You let him touch you", blah blah blah.

ANYA: But shouldn't he pay? Don't you wish he had to pay in some horrible way?
SPIKE: Absolutely.
SPIKE: Take him on myself, if it wasn't for my little handicap. (gesturing at his head)
ANYA: Right. (sits) So ... hypothetically, what do you wish you could do to him? (Spike pouring fresh shots for both of them)
SPIKE: You name it, pet. You're the wronged party. Something, uh... (lifts his glass) gruesome, how 'bout?

 

[prophecygrrl]

Lol, I missed this one.



ANYA: But shouldn't he pay? Don't you wish he had to pay in some horrible way?
SPIKE: Absolutely.
SPIKE: Take him on myself, if it wasn't for my little handicap. (gesturing at his head)
ANYA: Right. (sits) So ... hypothetically, what do you wish you could do to him? (Spike pouring fresh shots for both of them)
SPIKE: You name it, pet. You're the wronged party. Something, uh... (lifts his glass) gruesome, how 'bout?

I thought we weren't taking things literally? 😉 😛

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well if you want to get technical, none of the episodes should be taken literally because it's a show about a vampire Slayer and all these demons. :\


What I cannot ever seem to understand is why people are SO vocal over their hatred of Xander. Seriously, when you get right down to it, he hasn't done a single thing that the rest of them haven't been guilty of as well at some point, so why continue to post threads about how stupid/mean/arrogant/thoughtless/self-centered/whatever he is? I hate Andrew and Connor, but you don't see me going around posting thread after thread about it... It's fine if you don't like a character, but seriously, have some respect for the people who do. I'm not crazy about Willow a lot of the time after Season 4, either, but I respect that there are fans out there who do still love her, and you don't see me continually starting threads about how much I hate her or whatever. It's almost like the people who hate Xander are trying to start a war or something with the people who do. Can't we all just agree to disagree and leave it alone?

 

[The Unspoken]

I thought we weren't taking things literally? 😉 😛

Well, Anya (pre-'Selfless') and soulless Spike enjoy killing and torturing people, so in this case, we should take it literally. Buffy and Willow don't, so they're clearly out of character in episodes like 'Pangs'.

What I cannot ever seem to understand is why people are SO vocal over their hatred of Xander. Seriously, when you get right down to it, he hasn't done a single thing that the rest of them haven't been guilty of as well at some point, so why continue to post threads about how stupid/mean/arrogant/thoughtless/self-centered/whatever he is? I hate Andrew and Connor, but you don't see me going around posting thread after thread about it... It's fine if you don't like a character, but seriously, have some respect for the people who do. I'm not crazy about Willow a lot of the time after Season 4, either, but I respect that there are fans out there who do still love her, and you don't see me continually starting threads about how much I hate her or whatever. It's almost like the people who hate Xander are trying to start a war or something with the people who do. Can't we all just agree to disagree and leave it alone?

Well, I don't think those who dislike Xander have disrespected anyone in this thread. But I sorta agree with you about the rest.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well, I don't think those who dislike Xander have disrespected anyone in this thread. But I sorta agree with you about the rest.

No, not in this thread... I was just kinda venting there for a second about how there always seem to be posts on the boards about how awful Xander is. It's a little annoying, 'cause there's not hatred like that toward anyone else. Well, except maybe Spike and Angel in the shipper threads. LOL

 

[sosa lola]

No, not in this thread... I was just kinda venting there for a second about how there always seem to be posts on the boards about how awful Xander is. It's a little annoying, 'cause there's not hatred like that toward anyone else. Well, except maybe Spike and Angel in the shipper threads. LOL

Actually those hate posts inspire me to start love threads for Xander. 😀 Right now I'm working on one inspired by the latest discussion in this thread.

 

[Marisa]

Well if you want to get technical, none of the episodes should be taken literally because it's a show about a vampire Slayer and all these demons. :\


What I cannot ever seem to understand is why people are SO vocal over their hatred of Xander. Seriously, when you get right down to it, he hasn't done a single thing that the rest of them haven't been guilty of as well at some point, so why continue to post threads about how stupid/mean/arrogant/thoughtless/self-centered/whatever he is? I hate Andrew and Connor, but you don't see me going around posting thread after thread about it... It's fine if you don't like a character, but seriously, have some respect for the people who do. I'm not crazy about Willow a lot of the time after Season 4, either, but I respect that there are fans out there who do still love her, and you don't see me continually starting threads about how much I hate her or whatever. It's almost like the people who hate Xander are trying to start a war or something with the people who do. Can't we all just agree to disagree and leave it alone?

I agree with this lately I have been trying to see the good in all the characters and couples even if I don't like them.
I do like what you said about all the characters being guilty not one of them is perfect no matter how much we love them.

 

[Icarium]

Maybe not definitively, but Buffy was pretty resolved at that point to kill Angelus

She had been "resolved" to kill Angel since Passion, i.e. February. Becoming takes place in June. I can't really blame Xander for not being so sure about that resolve. We are talking about the fate of the world, asking him to take any chances just on the very slim chance that Angel might be saved (and Angel could have been saved anyway, had the spell worked earlier) is demanding way too much of him, IMO. It was monumentally moot of a point too, since Angel activated Acathla before Buffy could stop him, something very unlikely to have changed had Xander told the truth.

No, not in this thread... I was just kinda venting there for a second about how there always seem to be posts on the boards about how awful Xander is. It's a little annoying, 'cause there's not hatred like that toward anyone else. Well, except maybe Spike and Angel in the shipper threads. LOL

Well, a lot of the hatred for Xander comes from shippers, I believe. For some reason that I will never understand, him not being a big fan of Spuffy or Bangel is considered by many a terrible crime against humanity while things like say Anya's millennium of murders are very rarely criticized by anyone. I just don't get that. For example I like Cordelia/Xander but I don't dislike Willow for having a different view than mine.