Why the Xander hate?

[BuffyElevated]

Well, a lot of the hatred for Xander comes from shippers, I believe. For some reason that I will never understand, him not being a big fan of Spuffy or Bangel is considered by many a terrible crime against humanity while things like say Anya's millennium of murders are very rarely criticized by anyone. I just don't get that. For example I like Cordelia/Xander but I don't dislike Willow for having a different view than mine.

I think you might be right about that... I've never really thought about it, but now that I do, the people who bash Xander the hardest (here anyway) usually are either hardcore Spuffies or Bangels.

One thing I don't get is that people say no one ever gave Xander crap about dating Anya, which is not true. Willow has always been very vocal of her dislike of Anya when the subject was brought up, and there were a few times in the beginning that Buffy and Giles did as well. They might not have been as vocal about it as Xander was about Buffy's love interests but that's because they had different personalities than his. Giles was more likely to make a dry comment than to say anything directly negative, and Buffy was more likely to make a sarcastic joke about the fact that his girlfriend was an ex-demon. Willow had a right to have pause about him dating Anya. After all, Anya's spell DID cause Vampire Willow's visit in "Doppelgangland".

 

[prophecygrrl]

I ship Spuffy, but I dislike Xander's treatment of other characters regardless. I've disliked how he treated people since Season 1, way before I ever even knew about Spike/Buffy (and even before Buffy/Angel, since I legitimately started having issues with him in 'The Pack'), let alone shipped them. In my experience, Xander's one of the most popular characters in fandom, so it's surprising to me that other people think the opposite. Maybe it's because of our positions, and I'm more sensitive to the amount of Xander love and others are more sensitive to the hate? Either way, I'm not usually very vocal about my dislike of Xander, except for threads that specifically ask for opinions, like this one. I also dislike Willow a lot (especially in the later seasons, but also sometimes high school Willow) because I think she gets away with far too much and she's guilty of even worse things than Xander. Equal-opportunity hater over here. 😛 And the one Xander hater I know who truly despises him hates both Spuffy and Bangel, so go figure. 🙂

One thing I don't get is that people say no one ever gave Xander crap about dating Anya, which is not true. Willow has always been very vocal of her dislike of Anya when the subject was brought up, and there were a few times in the beginning that Buffy and Giles did as well. They might not have been as vocal about it as Xander was about Buffy's love interests but that's because they had different personalities than his. Giles was more likely to make a dry comment than to say anything directly negative, and Buffy was more likely to make a sarcastic joke about the fact that his girlfriend was an ex-demon. Willow had a right to have pause about him dating Anya. After all, Anya's spell DID cause Vampire Willow's visit in "Doppelgangland".

But I don't think it's nearly to the same degree, partly because of their personalities like you said, and partly because it's a very different dynamic. Xander's disapproval of Spike/Buffy and Buffy/Angel is often couched in jealousy and is directed toward the nature of their relationship, (and though this is partly due to how the mythos sets it up with the sex=Angel losing his soul thing) it's really not his place to judge Buffy for that. There should be some concern of course, because they're vampires and all, but he does it even before anyone knows about the possibility of Angel losing his soul, and after Spike is chipped, in love with Buffy, and is even fighting alongside the Scoobies.
His investment in Buffy's relationship is weird and judgmental to me, because if he's mostly concerned for their safety, then logically, shouldn't Giles also share that concern as the father-figure, Watcher, and the one most knowledgable about demons/vampires? That's why I just don't get the practicality and concern for safety argument. Giles is a pretty good judge of these kinds of things. He even plotted to kill Spike in Season 7 the second he started to see him as a threat to the mission, and while I disagree with his choice, at least that I can understand as a credible danger.

I mostly brought up Anya because it's hypocrisy on Xander's part. Whether or not the Scoobies approve of her doesn't change the fact that Xander is violating his own standards and simultaneously judging others for doing the same. I don't agree with his standards and I don't even agree with how condescendingly the Scoobies (and Xander himself, though that's a whole other can of worms) often treat Anya, actually.

 

[Icarium]

His investment in Buffy's relationship is weird and judgmental to me, because if he's mostly concerned for their safety, then logically, shouldn't Giles also share that concern as the father-figure, Watcher, and the one most knowledgable about demons/vampires?

But he does. If anything Giles is arguably more anti-Spuffy than Xander. See his threat to Spike in I Was Made To Love You. Spike really lucked out that Giles wasn't around at the time of the attempted rape because he was going to be in for the flaming bat treatment, IMO. And it's not as if Giles is a supporter of Bangel, either.

I mostly brought up Anya because it's hypocrisy on Xander's part. Whether or not the Scoobies approve of her doesn't change the fact that Xander is violating his own standards and simultaneously judging others for doing the same.

Everyone in the Scooby gang has a huge blind spot when it comes to Anya. Faith kills one man by accident and they are all concerned about her, Angel makes a whole speech how she is on the verge of becoming total psychopath, etc. Anya has killed thousands and cracks jokes about it and yet this doesn't bother anyone and they are all shocked when she is back to her old tricks in S6.

I don't agree with his standards and I don't even agree with how condescendingly the Scoobies (and Xander himself, though that's a whole other can of worms) often treat Anya, actually.

Condescension to Anya? I don't see it. If anything, Xander et al. are incredibly tolerant of Anya who insults people in pretty much every episode she is in.

 

[The Unspoken]

Xander's disapproval of Spike/Buffy and Buffy/Angel is often couched in jealousy and is directed toward the nature of their relationship, (and though this is partly due to how the mythos sets it up with the sex=Angel losing his soul thing) it's really not his place to judge Buffy for that.

And yet, he encourages her to date Scott Hope only months after Angel tried to kill them all and attempt to suck the world into hell. And he supports her relationship with Riley as well. Maybe he's just *gasp* concerned about her well-being?

I mostly brought up Anya because it's hypocrisy on Xander's part. Whether or not the Scoobies approve of her doesn't change the fact that Xander is violating his own standards and simultaneously judging others for doing the same. I don't agree with his standards and I don't even agree with how condescendingly the Scoobies (and Xander himself, though that's a whole other can of worms) often treat Anya, actually.

I suspect Anya being treated like a joke happened exactly because of this kind of negative fan reaction to Xander's completely human reaction. So I find it hilarious that people who condemn his reaction to Bangel and Spuffy 'demand' Xander be called out on his hypocrisy. And so what if he's dating Anya? Doesn't mean he can't lie to Buffy in 'Becoming' if he thinks it's the right thing to do, for example.

 

[Doppelgang]

I still don't get the Xander hate 24hrs on 😕 Other characters exhibit human qualities too, of course, but the difference is that they can always turn to their super-powers when under threat whilst Xander can't. He has nothing to fall back on or hide behind. Buffy uses her "Slayer" title many times to justify things she says and does that she wouldn't get away with otherwise. Spike is not killed many times because his powers make him useful to the group. Willow and Anya are given more leeway to improve their ways once again because of the powers they have. It gives them all a get out of jail free card that Xander doesn't have and makes his story something you can sympathise with more in this sense.

To then keep criticising him is like flogging a dead horse, he's the monkey in the room some don't want to acknowledge because he reminds us that we are all in reality weak limited beings and so puts us off our pedestal. This is a good thing to be reminded of in my view. The problem with avid shippers, as some have pointed out already on here, is that they forget about basic human morals when they're too busy obsessing over how perfect a particular character or couple is, I've seen this with people on here who can't see anything bad in Spike of all characters! Some people really need a reality check here and need to get things in perspective.

 

[prophecygrrl]

But he does. If anything Giles is arguably more anti-Spuffy than Xander. See his threat to Spike in I Was Made To Love You. Spike really lucked out that Giles wasn't around at the time of the attempted rape because he was going to be in for the flaming bat treatment, IMO. And it's not as if Giles is a supporter of Bangel, either.

Oh, of course. I didn't mean to imply that he's a fan of Spuffy or Bangel, but when he disagrees with those choices, he doesn't judge Buffy for it the way Xander sometimes does. Except in Season 3 when she lies to them about Angel, but his anger is more about the lie and the not dealing with the consequences of Angelus than it is just about their relationship, I'd say. He's also the only one who actually tried to find out what happened in 'Becoming', because he knows she needs that support. Xander in DMP, on the other hand, not so much. When Buffy told Giles everything that went on in Season 6, including that she was sleeping with Spike, he laughed at everything (and not cruelly or mockingly). There's no "I told you so" or "How could you?", but in fact Xander's reaction is almost word for word "how could you?". After Buffy's relationship with Angel turns Angelus loose on Sunnydale, Giles tells her that she has his full support and respect, and he continues that throughout Season 2, even when he loses Jenny.

Condescension to Anya? I don't see it. If anything, Xander et al. are incredibly tolerant of Anya who insults people in pretty much every episode she is in.

Really? Wow, I thought they were all very condescending to her, but I fault Xander for it a bit more than the rest because he was the one who was actually in a relationship with her. The thing is, I don't view Anya as a malicious person, unless she feels like she's been wronged. She spent a thousand years as a demon and is just now interacting with the same humans she thought she was above for so long. Most of the time, when she says insulting things, she legitimately doesn't know they're insulting. What's admirable to me, then, are the times when she earnestly tries to change. 'Tolerant' doesn't really cut it for me, if he claims to love and respect her as much as he does. I basically agree with Halfrek when it comes to Xander/Anya.

And yet, he encourages her to date Scott Hope only months after Angel tried to kill them all and attempt to suck the world into hell. And he supports her relationship with Riley as well. Maybe he's just *gasp* concerned about her well-being?

Sure he's concerned for her well-being, but sometimes that crosses over into trying to make choices for her, and that I take issue with. And as for for him championing Riley, that's always read as a little creepy to me, again, because there are so many parallels between Riley and Xander, what with him as the "normal everyman who just wants to love Buffy" and all that.

 

[caitaintdead]

I'm posting from my phone so I cant address everything just yet. I would like to point out however that I'm not a hardcore otp fan of either spuffy or bangel. I like both ships, and can draw many positives and negatives about each. I also dislike Xander (although I definitely wouldnt say hate).

In fact, if we're discussing shipping preference and what it may mean alongside a distaste for Xander then hey - mine makes NO sense! Xander was always trying to convince Buffy to not be with them (why is up for debate, but the issue that he didn't approve is clearly not). Which should leave both Angel and Spike free, heartbroken and in the best circumstances to fall into each others arms.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

Of course, Cordelia agreed with Xander in both cases (and called Buffy a freak in DMP) and Giles scolded Buffy way more harshly than Xander did in Revelations but why bother mention those inconvenient facts. It's always Xander's fault for daring to suggest that Buffy might not be infallible.

I never said that. Xander's just particularly vicious in this period. And none of the others told a lie that ended up causing all the problems that Xander is currently accusing Buffy of causing.

Cordelia was actually trying to stand up for Buffy in DMP ("Time out, Xand...") The girl just has no tact whatsoever. Her "observations" are rude and miss the point but at least she wasn't attacking anybody.

Buffy, in "Revelations," actually did deserve a talking-to. It was unspeakably irresponsible of her not to tell anyone about Angel's return. However, the Scoobies react in the way that she thought they would: by once again ganging up on her and never listening to her point of view. If they ever actually thought about it, they would realize that Buffy already knows their perspective: she knows that she'll hurt her mother by running away, she knows that Angel is highly dangerous to have around. But the Scoobies don't care what she has to say for herself, because no matter what happens, they have no way of knowing just how difficult it all is for her. (Well, not until Season 7 Willow.)

My problem with Xander is that he overcompensates for The Lie by being unnecessarily furious with Buffy. Although he does obviously make up for it later.

Yikes. Lots of comments I want to reply to. Oh, well, I'll have to continue later.

 

[Icarium]

Oh, of course. I didn't mean to imply that he's a fan of Spuffy or Bangel, but when he disagrees with those choices, he doesn't judge Buffy for it the way Xander sometimes does.

No, he "only" tried to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. Which was a "a way to go Giles!" moment for me personally but anyway, it seems like judging to me.

Buffy told Giles everything that went on in Season 6, including that she was sleeping with Spike, he laughed at everything (and not cruelly or mockingly). There's no "I told you so" or "How could you?", but in fact Xander's reaction is almost word for word "how could you?".

Easily one of the worst moments for Giles, IMO. But my personal fanwank is that he didn't dare criticise Buffy because his absence led to much of the problems faced, not because he approved of her actions.

After Buffy's relationship with Angel turns Angelus loose on Sunnydale, Giles tells her that she has his full support and respect, and he continues that throughout Season 2, even when he loses Jenny.

Again, a fanwank but this may be because Giles screwed up too. He could have put his foot down and vetoed Buffy/Angel. Or at least tried to.

Most of the time, when she says insulting things, she legitimately doesn't know they're insulting.

Oh, yes, she does. Anya isn't a child. She has spent a millennium manipulating people. She just doesn't care about who she might be insulting. I can bet that if Xander treated Anya the way she treated him this would have been one more addition to his long, long list of perceived sins. But with Anya it's okay because she "doesn't know our human ways", which makes no sense considering she has spent more time among humans than than everyone in the Scooby gang has been alive (unless she worked like five days per year which doesn't fit with her fame as the most infamous vengeance demon ever). Heck, she posed as one of the Cordettes and managed to make Cordelia trust her and yet they want me to believe she doesn't know the norms of human society? Sorry, not buying that. And sorry for the off-topic rant.

To be back on topic, I would love to hear examples about the Scoobies being condescending to Anya. It's kind of a moot point since I don't think Miss "finesse out of her bottom" could be embarrassed by anything but I am curious.

And none of the others told a lie that ended up causing all the problems that Xander is currently accusing Buffy of causing.

Please explain to me how Xander's famous lie changed anything.

Cordelia was actually trying to stand up for Buffy in DMP ("Time out, Xand...") The girl just has no tact whatsoever. Her "observations" are rude and miss the point but at least she wasn't attacking anybody.

Of course not. Calling Buffy a freak was compliment, then?

 

[caitaintdead]

Never a good sign when a discussion ends with someone using fanwank as their argument...

I find it a bit offensive that you seriously think that people that dislike Xander do so purely because they ship a certain ship, or like a certain character. Have any of seriously considered that perhaps we each have different opinions on people and different personalities find different things endearing?

As far as I'm concerned I never bash anyone personally for liking, adoring or loving Xander. I have complete respect for people that I like him. However, I think there are things that he HAS done wrong, and it's completely unreasonable to insist on pointing out other peoples flaws as a way of justifying what he has done.

I'm fairly certain that in ANY situation where someone does something wrong I find it frustrating when people say 'yeah but so and so did it last year'. It doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

If I call out Xander for doing something wrong, then I'm going to be the first to call out Buffy for doing something similar wrong, but let me get this straight - IT DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT XANDER HAS DONE. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY.

Personally my issues with Xander are purely based on his personality - I just don't like him. He's not someone I want to be friends with. Not because he doesn't have superpowers (unfortunately none of my real life friends do either 🙁). I find his jokes annoying rather than funny and I don't like the way he lets his insecurities get the best of him, and offend the people around him.

Once again, this is just my opinion, not a fact, and I'm not saying that anyone has any reason to NOT like Xander. There are many arguments against why I shouldn't like some of my favourite characters, and I have many issues myself, and I've been told that people 'hate' me for certain aspects of my personality. Fine, it's who I am.

I hope this has made some sort of sense and I hope Xander fans don't see this as an attack. I don't mean it that way at all, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion the same way that people that bash other characters are.

 

[zobothehobo]

Never a good sign when a discussion ends with someone using fanwank as their argument...

I find it a bit offensive that you seriously think that people that dislike Xander do so purely because they ship a certain ship, or like a certain character. Have any of seriously considered that perhaps we each have different opinions on people and different personalities find different things endearing?

As far as I'm concerned I never bash anyone personally for liking, adoring or loving Xander. I have complete respect for people that I like him. However, I think there are things that he HAS done wrong, and it's completely unreasonable to insist on pointing out other peoples flaws as a way of justifying what he has done.

I'm fairly certain that in ANY situation where someone does something wrong I find it frustrating when people say 'yeah but so and so did it last year'. It doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

If I call out Xander for doing something wrong, then I'm going to be the first to call out Buffy for doing something similar wrong, but let me get this straight - IT DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT XANDER HAS DONE. IT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY.

Personally my issues with Xander are purely based on his personality - I just don't like him. He's not someone I want to be friends with. Not because he doesn't have superpowers (unfortunately none of my real life friends do either 🙁). I find his jokes annoying rather than funny and I don't like the way he lets his insecurities get the best of him, and offend the people around him.

Once again, this is just my opinion, not a fact, and I'm not saying that anyone has any reason to NOT like Xander. There are many arguments against why I shouldn't like some of my favourite characters, and I have many issues myself, and I've been told that people 'hate' me for certain aspects of my personality. Fine, it's who I am.

I hope this has made some sort of sense and I hope Xander fans don't see this as an attack. I don't mean it that way at all, but I think I'm entitled to my opinion the same way that people that bash other characters are.

I'm out of rep but mark my words... when I get some back, I will come rep this post. Thank you Cait for this.

 

[Icarium]

I find it a bit offensive that you seriously think that people that dislike Xander do so purely because they ship a certain ship, or like a certain character.

I said that I believe shipping is a major reason for hating Xander. Not the "only reason".

 

[caitaintdead]

I still don't get the Xander hate 24hrs on 😕 Other characters exhibit human qualities too, of course, but the difference is that they can always turn to their super-powers when under threat whilst Xander can't. He has nothing to fall back on or hide behind. Buffy uses her "Slayer" title many times to justify things she says and does that she wouldn't get away with otherwise. Spike is not killed many times because his powers make him useful to the group. Willow and Anya are given more leeway to improve their ways once again because of the powers they have. It gives them all a get out of jail free card that Xander doesn't have and makes his story something you can sympathise with more in this sense.

I don't really get this. I think Xander was given quite a lot of leeway regardless of him having nothing to bring to the group other than friendship and love. Anya was allowed to stay in the group through Season 7 despite being stripped of her powers. Buffy even calls her out on this and says 'What exactly do you do here?'. Buffy NEVER spoke to Xander with that kind of disregard.

To then keep criticising him is like flogging a dead horse, he's the monkey in the room some don't want to acknowledge because he reminds us that we are all in reality weak limited beings and so puts us off our pedestal.

This is simply incorrect personally. I'm sure it could be true about some fans. But it can easily be said that people that don't like other characters don't like them simply because they're jealous of their strength.

Also, I like many television characters that don't have super powers so this is redundant in my case.

 

[prophecygrrl]

So...I kinda moved to this thread because I was derailing and posting when I said I wouldn't, hope that's okay 🙂

Are they? Cordelia is going out with lots of guys. Heck, she is proud of it as it makes her more popular in school. Xander is just indulging in a bit of hyperbole. It's not as if she had a long term relationship with the frat guy and Xander was pretending otherwise. And it's not as if he is against pre-marital sex or something. And she is the one who insulted Xander first.

Why should he be called on it? He only says it in response to Cordelia's insults, which she makes for years, without provocation. And I'd say it's exactly the other way around. Cordelia's insults get treated like comedy, whereas Xander's outbursts are presented as dramatically significant. Xander leaving Anya at the altar? Dawn compares it to attempted rape.

But the truth of those statements isn't really the issue. Cordelia's insult to Xander isn't exactly untrue either. He doesn't work very hard in school and he's not very ambitious. That doesn't make it any less of a cutting insult, and lol I'm the last person to defend classism, so again I think they're both in the wrong. The difference in me criticizing Xander more than Cordelia is because I think Xander's behavior is more often rationalized and seen as justified. Cordelia, on the other hand, is pretty much established as the bullying bitca of the show. Later on she even realizes how badly she treated people and grows from it. Doesn't she initially think of her time in LA as punishment for what she did in Sunnydale?
But Xander? He's never called out for his part and is even supported by the other main characters (Willow and sometimes Buffy). The majority of the audience doesn't view what he does as wrong in the first place. He's still written and treated pretty sympathetically, even if he's almost as bad (if not just as) as Cordelia.

Also, is there ever any evidence that Cordelia's been attacking him completely unprovoked? He's often the first to point out how stupid or self-centered her comments are, and while of course she starts up things with him a lot of the time, so must he. Isn't he treasurer of the "I hate Cordelia" club? 😛 Who started picking on the other first way back when we can only guess (probably Cordelia), but the hate and the insults through the years are definitely mutual.

Also, the show excuses Cordy's bitchiness quite a bit. Say in "OOM, OOS" when she has a whole speech about how she is so lonely, so it's better to have the Cordettes as friends than nobody. Or in S3 when she repeatedly insults Buffy for no reason whatsoever and we are supposed to feel for her because Xander cheated on her or because Buffy dared run for whatever the title was in Homecoming.

Do they ever pick up on that speech again in OOM, OOS? We see Cordelia humanized for a little bit in one episode, but the majority of her time on BtVS she's still established as the shallow, popular bitca that all the Scoobies roll their eyes at. I don't think they ever even reference it again. Her faults are her own.

And Cordelia not winning Homecoming Queen after all in 'Homecoming' felt a bit like the show's version of justice in the end, lol, making the whole rivalry between Buffy and Cordelia a bit pointless for all their effort. That's also just one situation, and the way she generally treats people isn't excused, just explained more in that instance because of the Xander thing.

 

[Icarium]

But Xander? He's never called out for his part and is even supported by the other main characters (Willow and sometimes Buffy).

We are talking about a show where just about everybody in the opening credits gets away with murder quite literally at one point or another and you want Xander to get called for a few childish insults? Isn't that an impossibly high standard? And of course, Willow and Buffy would take his side, as they are regularly at the receiving end of Cordelia's venomous tongue too. They did acknowledge that Cordelia had a right to be pissed after he cheated on her but personally I find quite puzzling to expect them to do anything more. It's not as if Cordelia ever appeared to be much bothered by these insults. Or that Willow and Buffy didn't indulge in that sort of thing too ("1-800, I am dating a skanky ho!").

Do they ever pick up on that speech again in OOM, OOS? We see Cordelia humanized for a little bit in one episode, but the majority of her time on BtVS she's still established as the shallow, popular bitca that all the Scoobies roll their eyes at.

I disagree. From early S2 to The Wish, Cordelia is very much a part of the Scooby gang, Willow and Buffy are friendly to her, etc. Harmony is the one who remains, well, a vapid bitch. So it's not if the show was manipulating us to love Xander and hate Cordelia.

The majority of the audience doesn't view what he does as wrong in the first place. He's still written and treated pretty sympathetically, even if he's almost as bad (if not just as) as Cordelia.

He is not as bad as Cordelia, not even close. She insulted everybody, he only did it with her (okay, that sounded dirtier than I intended).

Also, is there ever any evidence that Cordelia's been attacking him completely unprovoked?

You mean apart from Cordelia doing it to everybody else, including many who never snark back? Or the dozens of instances where we see her insulting Willow, Xander, Buffy or sometimes even Giles completely unprovoked. Yes, sometimes Xander starts it but that's the exception, not the rule.

 

[prophecygrrl]

We are talking about a show where just about everybody in the opening credits gets away with murder quite literally at one point or another and you want Xander to get called for a few childish insults? Isn't that an impossibly high standard? And of course, Willow and Buffy would take his side, as they are regularly at the receiving end of Cordelia's venomous tongue too. They did acknowledge that Cordelia had a right to be pissed after he cheated on her but personally I find quite puzzling to expect them to do anything more. It's not as if Cordelia ever appeared to be much bothered by these insults. Or that Willow and Buffy didn't indulge in that sort of thing too ("1-800, I am dating a skanky ho!").

We can talk about murder and apocalyspses until the cows come home lol, it doesn't change anything Xander does. What the other characters do doesn't change anything he does either, but I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that I didn't like it when Willow or Buffy did it either. Of course it's a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but I assert my right to be annoyed by it nonetheless. I dislike Xander for many reasons, and this is just one of them. It's not as if I'm basing my whole attitude towards him, lol.

I think that yes, Cordelia is ultimately accepted by the Scoobies in her own way. I didn't mean to imply that she was a complete outcast. While I like that Xander called her out on her crap, sometimes the nature of his remarks was just more slut-shamey and petty than what was deserved, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because in contrast to Cordelia, Xander comes off as an underdog hero. I have no problem with other characters calling out Cordelia on her crap. She needed that, and they have a right to defend themselves obviously. But when the to-go response is to constantly compare her to a sex worker or sneer at her clothing? Um. That doesn't win any points from me, sorry.

 

[BuffyElevated]

caitaintdead disagrees: Wouldn't it be kind of a dull forum if we all agreed on everything all the time?

No one said we all had to agree. But we don't have to get so pissy and attack people who don't agree with us, either, you know? A lot of people around here can't seem to understand how to post like civil adults.

 

[caitaintdead]

A lot of people around here can't seem to understand how to post like civil adults.

Couldn't agree more. People get so easily offended around here it sometimes feels like I'm running around a school yard. As I've said before I think it's a cultural difference. Australians can take a bit of heckling.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Just wanted to jump on here to add my thoughts. I've read the last few pages of posts and find them to be really interesting. I am a Spuffy shipper, and yes, I am quick to point out Xander's flaws. I agree with a lot of what Prophecygrrl and Caitaintdead have said. But I do like Xander, nevertheless. Here's my take. Disclaimer: I'm literally figuring this out as I write it, so the content may not be air-tight. 🙂

I believe that Xander's human flaws are magnified by the writers, who intentionally use him as an example of what your average "Joe Human" would look like in an often morally grey world, in the midst of a bunch of super-powerful, mission oriented people. The writers portray Xander as so incredibly human that his inconsistencies and hypocritical tendencies really stand out--and they're meant to--in order to depict what it would be like for an ordinary guy who is faced with a ton of ethical stickiness.
Buffy is on a mission. The decisions she makes are difficult and sometimes unpopular. Angel, chipped/ensouled Spike, Giles, Willow, and Tara line up behind her, (and help because they *can*); they occasionally travel down their own paths but their world views at the end of the day, usually circle back up to serve the purpose of having Buffy's back.

When any of the other scoobies or vamps makes an error--ie fails to do what's "right"--it is always in the pursuit of the greater goal to better the world. Even Willow's transformation into Dark Willow is (arguably) ultimately a side effect of the skill she's acquired and talent that she wouldn't have even known about if it wasn't for her mission: the place she took at Buffy's side. There's sort of an excuse for her. Good magic lead to too much magic which lead to vengeance, as soon as grief struck. Giles makes mistakes because he's so invested in trying to do what's right; it's his calling too, and when he's wrong, again, he's wrong in the context of trying to do right. (Although, from my perspective as soon as he tried to kill Spike I was done giving him excuses, lol.) Helpless is a great example.

Anya is different: she is an example of someone newly straddling two opposing worlds of morality (late season Spike as well, but his loyalty is to Buffy and that dictates his actions). In this way, she is the perfect mate for Xander because both symbolically and perhaps in practice, she unwittingly bridges the gap between these two worlds--often just with her commentary. She'll never be Joe Human but she is no longer treated as a demon, either. You could say she's got it made when it comes to excuses: if she does something ethically questionable lots of fans say it's due to the "adjustment" period on the path to becoming a good person. If she says something ethically "unthinkable," it's funny because it's left over from her old life.

And Xander? He's out of luck. (Well, mostly. He can blame The Lie on trying to protect Buffy, which I support btw). But for the most part, the kid has a lot of questions, and he's trying to sort through this world of confusion in which he dates a former vengeance demon and works side by side with a bunch of powerful people, some of whom are vampires for goodness sake. I'm not making excuses for him. But I am pointing out that he is a human, through and through, with less than half of the mission-related "whoops" to fall back on as the others have.

 

[The Unspoken]

We can talk about murder and apocalyspses until the cows come home lol, it doesn't change anything Xander does. What the other characters do doesn't change anything he does either, but I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that I didn't like it when Willow or Buffy did it either. Of course it's a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but I assert my right to be annoyed by it nonetheless. I dislike Xander for many reasons, and this is just one of them. It's not as if I'm basing my whole attitude towards him, lol.

I think that yes, Cordelia is ultimately accepted by the Scoobies in her own way. I didn't mean to imply that she was a complete outcast. While I like that Xander called her out on her crap, sometimes the nature of his remarks was just more slut-shamey and petty than what was deserved, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because in contrast to Cordelia, Xander comes off as an underdog hero. I have no problem with other characters calling out Cordelia on her crap. She needed that, and they have a right to defend themselves obviously. But when the to-go response is to constantly compare her to a sex worker or sneer at her clothing? Um. That doesn't win any points from me, sorry.

And why should Cordelia's sexuality be off-limits? Because she's a woman? In a supposedly feminist show, you do realize that's a decidedly unfeminist approach, don't you? And Cordelia doesn't seem bothered by this, perhaps because she's self-aware enough to realize that Xander's remarks are perfectly fine considering the context, i.e. as a response to her insults.

And I imagine the only reason Cordelia doesn't slut-shame anyone herself is because she typically targets losers who don't have much of a social/dating life, and because she goes for (arguably) more hurtful subjects, like someone's looks or social status. Until Buffy's love for Angel turned him into Angelus, that is:

Put yourself in Buffy's shoes for just a minute, okay? I'm Buffy, freak of nature, right? Naturally, I pick a freak for a boyfriend, and then he turns into Mr. Killing Spree, which is pretty much my fault.