Why the Xander hate?

[whedonist]

In my opinion, all this is only a matter of taste as Xander is NOT a terrible person.
I mean, Anya tortured and killed men as a demon and absolutely liked tact and humanity as a...well, human. It was only okay because she was cute and funny about it, but I really think that she was worse than Xander. The guy is just human. He gets jealous, says what he has to say and tries his best to be happy. But he is not a bad person. How many times have I thought "man, that's exacly what I was thinking, thank you for saying it Xander!". At the end of the day, Willow's not better I think, because she thinks stuff but is not as brave as Xander to say them. I don't know, I don't think it's necessary to hate Xander. As far as I'm concerned, I don't hate anybody in Buffy (except the characters that were MEANT to be hated!^^), I just don't love them with he same intensity.

 

[Dagenspear]

Cordy deserved it at that time - she was a snob.
Besides, the rich get over these things faster than the rest of us, by spending money to for self-gratification.

Oh, she deserved to be cheated on for that, did she? She deserved to be cheated on because she had money? I can't believe this. She was never even a snob. Yeah, she was rich, and ALL rich people flash their money and pretty things around, but that can't be helped. You, me, and almost everyone else would do the exact same thing if we grew up privledged. And she was a decent enough person... very, brutally honest at times... but there's nothing wrong with that. People need that in life. She said what she wanted to and let no one stand in her way of that. That's a very attractive quality in a woman.

You're basically hating on her for playing to her strengths.

 

[Marisa]

Ok, I was going to write this humongous, long schpeal about why Xander doesn't suck but Sosa Lola and Chosen Enemy pretty much already said everything I was going to say. LOL

You know what cracks me up about Xander haters though? Xander haters act like they themselves have never ever been guilty of judging someone or blurting something out in a moment of passion or anger. It is human nature to say or do things in the heat of the moment we may regret later. This is why I love Xander. He represents this element of us. He says the things that everyone is thinking, albeit in ways that everyone may not like, but guess what? Like it or not, we' re all guilty of doing things we shouldn't do, and so is he. Nobody is perfect; we all do stupid stuff and say stupid things to people we love because we care about them and don't want to see them get hurt, or because we're mad at them for something.

Why is Xander exempt from forgiveness from this when Cordelia isn't? Why are Spike and Anya forgiven and their jokes laughed off, when they've murdered and killed people and said and done horrible things to people, yet Xander's worst crimes are his words?

My theory is that people see things in Xander that they don't want to see within themselves. It's easier to hate or dislike a fictional character for something than to admit something within themselves that they need to change or work on.

I really agree with this I do think everyone is guilty of judging. My problem with Xander though is I feel in some aspects he shouldn't judge. Regarding Buffy's love life and choices I feel he should pipe down because he at times is dating someone just as bad as Angel and Spike I am talking about Anya. I think everyone judges in this world but I myself am not going to judge someone and then basically kind of do the same thing that makes me a hypocrite. That is what I kind of think of Xander a majority of the time these days. I just can't get over his constant bashing of Spike and Angel when the person who was going to marry was just as bad if not worse than them at a time in her life. Sad really because I used to love him.

 

[Icarium]

She was never even a snob

Yes, she never insulted others because of their fashion taste, lack of money or something like that. Oh, wait, she did it in pretty much every episode she was in before she moved to LA. Of course she was a snob. Getting over that and seeing peopel for what they are and not for their clothes or parents or standing in society was pretty much the basis of Cordelia's character development.

 

[Dagenspear]

You can't blame her for that. She was a teenager. It wasn't like she ever actually hurt anybody. And if she did, tough. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin. Yeah, it wasn't exactly the best character trait, but, she grew up, she evolved. As do most of us.

And, despite all that, does her being a snob really warrant her being cheated on? What kind of a view is that?

 

[Icarium]

You can't blame her for that.

Maybe, maybe not. But that's a bit different than not being a snob in the first place, isn't it? I happen to like Cordelia and I still blame her. She doesn't even seem to believe that "losers" need to be put in their place and does it mostly to show herself as Queen C to the Cordettes - whom she doesn't even like. Often she wasn't being brutally honest, she was playing a role.

It wasn't like she ever actually hurt anybody.

Marcie Ross begs to differ.

 

[sosa lola]

It wasn't like she ever actually hurt anybody.

Insulting people is hurting them. She'd hurt a lot of students with her tongue. Words hurt a lot and sometimes cause a lot of damage to a person.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I've posted in this thread before about why I think Xander is judged the way he is in the 'verse. I was just thinking about this a little more. Xander is the only character in the verse without a real burden to overcome; without such a powerful and heavy excuse to fall back on.

I know that whenever I'm judging a character, I always take what they've been through in account. It's not an intellectual process--it's more of a gut reaction based on the information I've been given. But it's a powerful feeling nevertheless. Isolate the deeds of a character from what they've been through/are going through, and it's suddenly a lot easier to find fault with them. For me, anyway. Most characters have such intense stories and backgrounds attached to their personalities that it's hard to do that. I think it's not so much the case with Xander.

Buffy and Faith are the slayers. Giles is forced into the sacred duty of protecting them, day in and day out. Willow has extreme power which becomes a great burden. Oz is a werewolf. Dawn is a key whose purpose is to send a hell beast back to her dimension, (talk about a lot to get over in a short amount of time!) The individual plights of Angel, Spike, Anya, and Tara are obvious too.

Sure things are rough for Xander at home, but no more so than they might be for a lot of "us." That is to say, his troubles are "normal," "human," "relatable." So when he makes a mistake, (arguably, "kick his ass," and "B,B,B" are examples), there is no overly dramatic and painful shadow that hangs over it. It's just clear and simple: Xander screwed up again. I really wonder if this is responsible for the negative reactions toward his character, (of which I too can be guilty sometimes!)

 

[Marisa]

You can't blame her for that. She was a teenager. It wasn't like she ever actually hurt anybody. And if she did, tough. Maybe they should grow a thicker skin. Yeah, it wasn't exactly the best character trait, but, she grew up, she evolved. As do most of us.

And, despite all that, does her being a snob really warrant her being cheated on? What kind of a view is that?

I do agree with the tougher skin part she was in high school. I am sorry but people are mean in high school it is kind of like events that are passed down when you look at it. Cordelia was a blessing compared to the people I was around so maybe that is why I don't always see her as a pure snob. Yes she was a snob because of her status but that is how most of the rich kids are. That isn't an excuse but just the way it is.

I think I can look past it because like you said she grew up and evolved. I would say she should have been the last one to be cheated on considering she went against her popular status just to be with Xander and then he cheats on her that has to suck.

 

[The Unspoken]

I really agree with this I do think everyone is guilty of judging. My problem with Xander though is I feel in some aspects he shouldn't judge. Regarding Buffy's love life and choices I feel he should pipe down because he at times is dating someone just as bad as Angel and Spike I am talking about Anya. I think everyone judges in this world but I myself am not going to judge someone and then basically kind of do the same thing that makes me a hypocrite. That is what I kind of think of Xander a majority of the time these days. I just can't get over his constant bashing of Spike and Angel when the person who was going to marry was just as bad if not worse than them at a time in her life. Sad really because I used to love him.

This is a rather weak line of reasoning. It basically goes 'you should never express your opinion because you screwed up once', which really doesn't make any sense.
Not to mention that it very much isn't about Buffy's love life. Buffy developing cuddly feelings for creatures she's supposed to slay according to her job description is a conflict of interest that has led to countless of deaths over the course of the show and endangered Xander's own life on a number of occasions.

I think I can look past it because like you said she grew up and evolved. I would say she should have been the last one to be cheated on considering she went against her popular status just to be with Xander and then he cheats on her that has to suck.

The fact that Cordelia went against her popular status shouldn't be a factor in determining the 'suckiness' of Xander's cheating. Unless you think remaining a bimbo and a bully is a positive thing...

 

[Icarium]

Sure things are rough for Xander at home, but no more so than they might be for a lot of "us." That is to say, his troubles are "normal," "human," "relatable.

A lot of us have had their (second) best friend murdered? Or their friends being in mortal danger pretty mcuh every day? Color me surprised.

So when he makes a mistake, (arguably, "kick his ass," and "B,B,B" are examples), there is no overly dramatic and painful shadow that hangs over it.

Having to think about the very possible end of the world depending on his actions isn't dramatic enough for you?

Giles is forced into the sacred duty of protecting them, day in and day out.

He isn't forced. If anything, he kept on doing his job after getting fired, that's the exact opposite of being forced. He was pressured by his family years ago but as of the start of the show this doesn't seem to be the case and he is a Watcher because he wants to help.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

A lot of us have had their (second) best friend murdered? Or their friends being in mortal danger pretty mcuh every day? Color me surprised.

I was referring to the background of each character, and how it affected who they ended up becoming on the show. Jesse's death was an unusual circumstance, but it didn't change the foundation of who Xander was. In any case, eventually yes, Xander had endured enough to make him practically unrelatable to the audience. But not so much, in comparison to the rest of the cast. I'm talking about something relative, (again, to the rest of the scoobies) not absolute. My theory is that when we observe a character as relatively less tragic than others, they become more relatable to us.

Having to think about the very possible end of the world depending on his actions isn't dramatic enough for you?

Haha, do you really think that's what I meant?! Again, I'm referring to where he's coming from, as a character, not to the weight of any particular one of his decisions. Not being "the slayer" or "the witch" or "the watcher" when having to make a difficult decision and/or when making a mistake, comes with different reactions, on behalf of the audience.

He isn't forced. If anything, he kept on doing his job after getting fired, that's the exact opposite of being forced. He was pressured by his family years ago but as of the start of the show this doesn't seem to be the case and he is a Watcher because he wants to help.

Bingo, re: the beginning of your 3rd sentence. He's a watcher out of force, then out of habit, and eventually out of choice. But he has an incredibly dark and "unusual" past that involves exposure to creatures of the dark at a young age, and the knowledge that he must assist a young girl at stopping them. Ergo, dramatic past. More responsibility. Different set of excuses for Giles, than for Xander.

 

[Icarium]

I was referring to the background of each character, and how it affected who they ended up becoming on the show. Jesse's death was an unusual circumstance, but it didn't change the foundation of who Xander was.

Says who? For all we know his "excessive" hatred of Spike and Angel is primarily caused by Jesse's death.

Xander had endured enough to make him practically unrelatable to the audience. But not so much, in comparison to the rest of the cast. I'm talking about something relative, (again, to the rest of the scoobies) not absolute. My theory is that when we observe a character as relatively less tragic than others, they become more relatable to us.

I am very curious how exactly Xander is less tragic than say Oz. Or Willow back in S1-3 since we seem to be talking about The Lie and so on, things that happened back then. Or Cordelia in the same seasons. Overall, your argument relies on things characters have yet to do - I doubt that back in S2 people sympathised with Cordelia more than with Xander because she was more of a tragic figure. Or that they went back years later and started seeing early Cordelia as some doomed martyr, for that matter. I wasn't a fan back then but according to most accounts I have read, Xander got an inordinate amount of blame years before the show devolved into "The Scooby Gang, Death Row Edition, Redemption For All".

Haha, do you really think that's what I meant?! Again, I'm referring to where he's coming from, as a character, not to the weight of any particular one of his decisions.

And I am saying that where he is coming from has very much to do with the world hanging in the balance.

But he has an incredibly dark and "unusual" past that involves exposure to creatures of the dark at a young age, and the knowledge that he must assist a young girl at stopping them. Ergo, dramatic past. More responsibility. Different set of excuses for Giles, than for Xander.

Except for the parental pressure, their stories are quite similar actually. Xander, just like Giles, dabbles in magic with almost disastrous consequences. He is faced with the truth about the world and decides to risk his life to help. Just because one is called Watcher doesn't mean that the other has it easy. When Buffy ran to LA, Xander led the vampire slaying efforts, not Giles. Not that it made much sense for Giles to not be on the front line at that point, mind you . 🙂

People are probably going to be insulted but my theory is that Xander gets so much blame for relatively harmless acts because these acts are a bit too real. A serial killer stalking you isn't something many of us face, a girlfriend/boyfriend who cheats, or a friend who keeps nagging about your romantic life, is. Kind of like the fans who hate Spike for the attempted rape but oddly don't blame him much for his thousands of murders.

 

[caritas08]

Why I love Xander....

1. He is never threatened or jealous of everyone else's power. He remains the only one without superpowers and yet continues to support and be the "heart" of the Scooby gang through the whole show.

2. He continues loving Buffy and supporting her even after she rejects him romantically (which can be really hard to do).

3. Despite the fact that he has less financial support and academic ability than the other Scoobies, he works hard and creates quite a successful living for himself. He ends up being (in my opinion) the most stable, well adjusted of the Scoobies, taking Dawn to school, fixing things, having a stable job etc.

5. Even when her misdirection causes him to lose an eye, he doesn't blame Buffy or make her feel bad. He sticks by her (being the only Scooby that is still with her in the comics besides Dawn obviously).

When I don't like Xander...

1. I agree that Xander can by a hypocrite sometimes and judgemental but I still find his reasons understandable and forgivable.

 

[kittenpoker]

Awesome post, caritas. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

People are probably going to be insulted but my theory is that Xander gets so much blame for relatively harmless acts because these acts are a bit too real. A serial killer stalking you isn't something many of us face, a girlfriend/boyfriend who cheats, or a friend who keeps nagging about your romantic life, is.

See, you don't accept my theory that he comes from a (relatively) "real" background or has (relatively) "real" responsibilities, but you argument is that the problems he faces or the actions he makes are closer to reality. Which isn't very far from what I'm saying.

In short, it seems like we agree that if a lot of what makes a character who he is is grounded in reality when compared to other characters, (on a show such as this) he is far more relatable and thus what he does gets more flack. Maybe?

 

[caritas08]

Okay, I thought of number 4 😛

4. Xander's social circle has essentially reverted to only women by Season 6 & 7 yet he almost offers a listening ear and moral support even when he doesn't always have someone he himself can relate to or identify with.

 

[sosa lola]

Okay, I thought of number 4 😛

4. Xander's social circle has essentially reverted to only women by Season 6 & 7 yet he almost offers a listening ear and moral support even when he doesn't always have someone he himself can relate to or identify with.

Yay, reason #4! 😀

And it's so true. Xander tends to listen to his friends' problems way too often, but we rarely see them listen to his problems. I think Gum Gnome33's point about Xander's not over the top issues and problems have something to do with it.

 

[Marisa]

This is a rather weak line of reasoning. It basically goes 'you should never express your opinion because you screwed up once', which really doesn't make any sense.
Not to mention that it very much isn't about Buffy's love life. Buffy developing cuddly feelings for creatures she's supposed to slay according to her job description is a conflict of interest that has led to countless of deaths over the course of the show and endangered Xander's own life on a number of occasions.

I don't think it is a weak line of reasoning at all. Expressing your opinions is different than what Xander did at times. He was the one character that just kept on and never got passed things that is why I think it took him so long to mature. At some points I think Dawn was more mature than him to be honest. His hate for Angel leaked into his hate for Spike not much but some.

Okay but if that is the case Anya should have been killed or attempted to be killed as well. She certainly should not have been as integral in the group if that is how Buffy's interests are seen. She is just as BAD to me. That is why Xander is annoying and hypocritical to me I assume if he could sleep with Spike or Angel and was attracted to them he would not have a problem with what they used/still do. Just my opinion though.

The fact that Cordelia went against her popular status shouldn't be a factor in determining the 'suckiness' of Xander's cheating. Unless you think remaining a bimbo and a bully is a positive thing...

It should be a factor because she went against what she KNEW. I don't care if Cordy was a bitca that still says something for her to leave what she has known all the time. I am sorry we may see the scoobies as this cool little group but look at it from the schools perspective. Cordy going and hanging with them takes a big step for a girl like her. I am not saying it is the best thing in the world but I am saying it is something. So yes it does make it suck a little more that he cheated on her. She lost her "friends" and everything to be with him and then what he cheats on her. It is like you go all in on something and don't have anything to fall back on that does make the suckiness worse in my eyes.

 

[Icarium]

See, you don't accept my theory that he comes from a (relatively) "real" background or has (relatively) "real" responsibilities, but you argument is that the problems he faces or the actions he makes are closer to reality. Which isn't very far from what I'm saying.

In short, it seems like we agree that if a lot of what makes a character who he is is grounded in reality when compared to other characters, (on a show such as this) he is far more relatable and thus what he does gets more flack. Maybe?

My argument isn't about who Xander is, it's about what he does. I really don't think relatable characters generally get more flack, not least because the people who bash Character X the most usually don't tend to find him/her relatable in the first place. It's about hitting too close to home, which is why Dawn's whiny brat antics have earned her far more fan hatred than Anya's millennium of gruesome murders. Dawn, by the way, is an excellent counter-example to your perceived correlation between the general "realness"/level of tragedy surrounding a character and the willingness of the audience to forgive them. She has a myriad of excuses and reasons for feeling depressed and lashing out, she isn't even a "real girl but still gets bashed mercilessly, despite never ever hurting anyone except for their feelings (and ears). The Potentials have purely supernatural-related problems and are pretty much defined by their latent superpowers, yet something like 95% of the viewers hate them. Early Wesley was a Watcher and this didn't earn him any leniency with most fans, etc.